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On December 15 2015 12:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 11:48 DinoMight wrote:
EDIT - yeah Byun totally outplayed Neeb but still struggled. I can see TvP being hard at the highest level. I'll wait until I know how Bunny can beat Stats and Dear, if you don't mind. It's representative of this thread that it can be revived in a period where PvZ is at its lowest aligulac ranking since 2012 and within two posts we're discussing the woes of terran.
It's representative of your bias that you didn't chide DinoMight for reviving this thread with a post about PvT being Terran favoured, but nitpicked the other posters, and only highlight PvZ when Terrans begin to express their opinions.
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On December 15 2015 12:50 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 12:16 Nebuchad wrote:On December 15 2015 11:48 DinoMight wrote:
EDIT - yeah Byun totally outplayed Neeb but still struggled. I can see TvP being hard at the highest level. I'll wait until I know how Bunny can beat Stats and Dear, if you don't mind. It's representative of this thread that it can be revived in a period where PvZ is at its lowest aligulac ranking since 2012 and within two posts we're discussing the woes of terran. It's representative of your bias that you didn't chide DinoMight for reviving this thread with a post about PvT being Terran favoured, but nitpicked the other posters, and only highlight PvZ when Terrans begin to express their opinions.
I do blame him.
And I do have bias, yeah. I happen to be a human being with a subjective point of view, thanks for pointing it out though.
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On December 15 2015 13:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 12:50 Pentarp wrote:On December 15 2015 12:16 Nebuchad wrote:On December 15 2015 11:48 DinoMight wrote:
EDIT - yeah Byun totally outplayed Neeb but still struggled. I can see TvP being hard at the highest level. I'll wait until I know how Bunny can beat Stats and Dear, if you don't mind. It's representative of this thread that it can be revived in a period where PvZ is at its lowest aligulac ranking since 2012 and within two posts we're discussing the woes of terran. It's representative of your bias that you didn't chide DinoMight for reviving this thread with a post about PvT being Terran favoured, but nitpicked the other posters, and only highlight PvZ when Terrans begin to express their opinions. I do blame him. And I do have bias, yeah. I happen to be a human being with a subjective point of view, thanks for pointing it out though.
I apologize for misunderstanding. It did not appear that way to me since you made this post..
+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2015 10:12 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 09:50 pure.Wasted wrote:
puCK vs ByuN going on right now at Gauntlet finals, looks pretty disgusting. Without Liberators ByuN would have been hopeless against someone who hasn't had a premier or major result since 2014. As opposed to ByuN?
+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2015 12:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 11:48 DinoMight wrote:
EDIT - yeah Byun totally outplayed Neeb but still struggled. I can see TvP being hard at the highest level. I'll wait until I know how Bunny can beat Stats and Dear, if you don't mind. It's representative of this thread that it can be revived in a period where PvZ is at its lowest aligulac ranking since 2012 and within two posts we're discussing the woes of terran.
Regardless, pure.Wasted makes a salient argument that bears repeating:
Unfortunately there are no high level Korean Protoss in this tournament struggling to get past EU Zergs, so there's not a lot there to talk about.
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Im confused about TvP discussion. From aligulac results it seems quite even.
List 151
PvT 115–125 (47.92%)
List 152
PvT 54–54 (50.00%)
GSL during weekend
PvT 21–22 (48.84%)
PvZ seems to be broken based on results.
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Can anyone give any ethical reason why blizzard refuses to buff tanks and just give terran a Goliath? Suddenly, nearly all terran problems would disappear without breaking the game.
Atleast combine mech air and ground attack upgrades.
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On December 15 2015 20:14 cop354g wrote:
Can anyone give any ethical reason why blizzard refuses to buff tanks and just give terran a Goliath? Suddenly, nearly all terran problems would disappear without breaking the game.
Atleast combine mech air and ground attack upgrades.
Buffing tanks and making Goliaths will break the game.
I cant see a point, where a unit, that is strong against larger amount of, small amount of capital air and looks decent against ground, in a world of unlimited selecting and acceptable unitpathing will not either be way to good in masses or way to weak to be every viable.
Buffed tanks seem not the way blizzard wants terran to be played. Since 5 years. They wanted Terran to be mobile, fast and annoying. Thus the tank is not the unit to be core and strong. And on the other way, at the moment tanks are used, so blizzard wont change anything on it anyway.
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On December 15 2015 19:52 keglu wrote:
Im confused about TvP discussion. From aligulac results it seems quite even.
List 151
PvT 115–125 (47.92%)
List 152
PvT 54–54 (50.00%)
GSL during weekend
PvT 21–22 (48.84%)
PvZ seems to be broken based on results.
50% is not all there is to balance. Watch TY vs herO for a good idea of just how fucked the MU is.
In the early and midgame, Terran has to play out of his mind just to survive. In the late game, if Protoss can't get Tempests out and Terran doesn't fuck up, Liberators seem unstoppable (basically the same thing as Ghost vs Ultra in TvZ, except Liberators at least have the decency to require multitasking from the Terran).
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Tanks have been considerably buffed with the medivacs pick up, even though this was not the change that mech player wanted, it has made bio tank very legit and (to me) interesting in all three matchup. Still, I agree with the concerns about TvT being too chaotic because of it, otherwise for TvZ and TvP it is a really nice change.
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On December 15 2015 20:14 cop354g wrote:
Can anyone give any ethical reason why blizzard refuses to buff tanks and just give terran a Goliath? Suddenly, nearly all terran problems would disappear without breaking the game.
Atleast combine mech air and ground attack upgrades.
Because if they buff tanks people will just use them with bio and they will be unstoppable.
Bio is too strong for mech to be viable. Any good mech unit will just be rolled into a bio composition.
In BW you didn't see bio play because mech was better. SC2 will be like that. Even if mech is viable... if bio is better people will just bio.
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Perhaps I was a little quick to judge on overall PvT balance. From the games I watched yesterday it seemed to favor Protoss. However, I think that "balance" is hanging by a thread...
I think the only reason that P is able to get ahead is because they're free to harass T with impunity while defending at home with nearly zero units across 3 bases. Once Photon Overcharge gets nerfed that may change significantly.
Yesterday Byun struggled to kill Neeb but he was fighting an uphill battle all game. Once he'd evened himself out on econ you could really see what I think is the second problem in the matchup... the Disruptor just sucks against good players. By the end of the game Neeb couldn't even hit anything.
I can't wait to see Innovation, MMA, Maru, etc. splitting against these disruptor shots.
And like another user said, I think once PO nerf goes into effect P will have to rely on Tempests a lot since they won't be so ahead economically and T will get a good amount of Libs out. I don't see how else you can counter that mass bio + Liberator style.
So TLDR after watching some games maybe I was wrong and PvT favors T but that's based on a broken mechanic (PO) that they said they're going to nerf. Disruptor is bad against good players.
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On December 15 2015 12:39 DinoMight wrote:
Lurkers are too strong. They only have one ground based counter (the Disruptor) but by the time you can get enough out Ultras (also imba) or Muta can be out and you can't effectively deal with both. So it's very much back to the "kill them before they get there" era of WoL PvZ.
Ultralisks are the real problem. Literally every single Protoss unit except for Immortals is useless against them and it forces you to go pure anti-ground against Ultras because units like Stalkers might as well not exist against them. Then they can just tech switch to mutas and its gg. At least vs. Lurkers you can just whittle away at them with like 4 Disruptors and still have the rest of your army as some kind of balanced composition. Against Ultra/ling even a pure 200/200 anti-Ultra/ling comp still loses to it so you have to play better than them to not die and then you die regardless to the tech switch.
Ultralisks are so broken it's really egregious. It's an autowin unit with no real counters from either T or P, and is basically worse than Infestor/Broodlord was.
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On December 15 2015 20:14 cop354g wrote:
Can anyone give any ethical reason why blizzard refuses to buff tanks and just give terran a Goliath? Suddenly, nearly all terran problems would disappear without breaking the game.
Atleast combine mech air and ground attack upgrades.
So make a unit that already sees lots of play stronger while also giving that same race (who already has strong anti-air) even more anti air by giving it an A-Move unit?
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On December 15 2015 20:14 cop354g wrote:
Can anyone give any ethical reason why blizzard refuses to buff tanks and just give terran a Goliath? Suddenly, nearly all terran problems would disappear without breaking the game.
Atleast combine mech air and ground attack upgrades.
Terran has a very short tech tree alongside a 50 mineral unit that has 66% of the health and DPS of an 100/50 Hydralisk. Any major buff has the real risk of just creating another unstoppable marine + buffed unit + worker pull allin in the vein of the old 1/1/1 vs. Protoss.
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On December 15 2015 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 12:39 DinoMight wrote:
Lurkers are too strong. They only have one ground based counter (the Disruptor) but by the time you can get enough out Ultras (also imba) or Muta can be out and you can't effectively deal with both. So it's very much back to the "kill them before they get there" era of WoL PvZ.
Ultralisks are the real problem. Literally every single Protoss unit except for Immortals is useless against them and it forces you to go pure anti-ground against Ultras because units like Stalkers might as well not exist against them. Then they can just tech switch to mutas and its gg. At least vs. Lurkers you can just whittle away at them with like 4 Disruptors and still have the rest of your army as some kind of balanced composition. Against Ultra/ling even a pure 200/200 anti-Ultra/ling comp still loses to it so you have to play better than them to not die and then you die regardless to the tech switch. Ultralisks are so broken it's really egregious. It's an autowin unit with no real counters from either T or P, and is basically worse than Infestor/Broodlord was.
I play T at the moment in LotV and have my own problems with Ultras. When they come out and I do not have either a good liberator count or a ghost acadamy, a small bank and 4-5 tec-lab raxes, I am usually just dead. Cant P just use tempest against them? Or anything skyrelated? Void-Tempest? Whats with archons? I see, that protoss has a fucking hard time like T against the Armorlisks, but what do you do at the moment?
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On December 15 2015 23:53 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 23:44 Xequecal wrote:On December 15 2015 12:39 DinoMight wrote:
Lurkers are too strong. They only have one ground based counter (the Disruptor) but by the time you can get enough out Ultras (also imba) or Muta can be out and you can't effectively deal with both. So it's very much back to the "kill them before they get there" era of WoL PvZ.
Ultralisks are the real problem. Literally every single Protoss unit except for Immortals is useless against them and it forces you to go pure anti-ground against Ultras because units like Stalkers might as well not exist against them. Then they can just tech switch to mutas and its gg. At least vs. Lurkers you can just whittle away at them with like 4 Disruptors and still have the rest of your army as some kind of balanced composition. Against Ultra/ling even a pure 200/200 anti-Ultra/ling comp still loses to it so you have to play better than them to not die and then you die regardless to the tech switch. Ultralisks are so broken it's really egregious. It's an autowin unit with no real counters from either T or P, and is basically worse than Infestor/Broodlord was. I play T at the moment in LotV and have my own problems with Ultras. When they come out and I do not have either a good liberator count or a ghost acadamy, a small bank and 4-5 tec-lab raxes, I am usually just dead. Cant P just use tempest against them? Or anything skyrelated? Void-Tempest? Whats with archons? I see, that protoss has a fucking hard time like T against the Armorlisks, but what do you do at the moment?
You die.
Look at it this way. Carriers, our strongest unit, have 8 interceptors doing 2 shots each. That means that 8 armor of the Ultralisk applies 16 times to the Carrier.
Also, the old Immortal did well against Ultras because its shield reduced the damage. Now without the shield it just dies too fast to be effective.
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A fully upgraded Ultralisk deals 52 DPS WITH splash, Archons do less than half this DPS, have 66% of the HP, and cost the same amount as Ultras. Ultras do more DPS than Immortals do against armored, and with their splash they do in excess of 200 DPS against small-sized units like Zealots or Adepts trying to tank for the Immortals. Seriously, a single Ultralisk attacking a unit line does more DPS than three Colossi.
Ultralisks also come with Zerglings, a 25 mineral unit that does more DPS than a stimmed Marine. Anything that is good against Zerglings does 0 damage against the Ultras, and the large size of Ultralisks means they soak up stuff like Colossus splash extremely effectively, preventing the Zerglings from taking damage. The ridiculous DPS of this army absolutely wipes even a maxed ground army off the map in about 15 seconds, so there's simply no time for Tempests to whittle their stuff down, they can just charge you and you either retreat and expose your Tempests or get annihilated in seconds.
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The DPS and armor is so high they can just 1-A at you and even if your entire army is air units they will kill your bases faster than you can kill them.
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Dont you think some specific units (lurkers, ravagers, ultra) are not the only problem with lotv zerg ? I mean the entire dynamic of the game, the new economy, seems to me to favor zergs so much. I say that with some care, I'm only diamond, but even when I see pro players harassing zerg like crazy, something I couldn't do with half the result they get, they still get crushed later by pure army size.
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On December 16 2015 01:12 tamino wrote:
Dont you think some specific units (lurkers, ravagers, ultra) are not the only problem with lotv zerg ? I mean the entire dynamic of the game, the new economy, seems to me to favor zergs so much. I say that with some care, I'm only diamond, but even when I see pro players harassing zerg like crazy, something I couldn't do with half the result they get, they still get crushed later by pure army size.
I absolutely think the economy favors Zerg.
Consider 3 hatch before pool. With the 12 worker start this build is much safer than HotS and still produces workers at the same time.
Now consider Protoss and the change to Chrono boost where you get more chrono but over a long period of time. The rate at which workers is produced in the early game is significantly reduced relative to HotS.
So just off the bat, Zerg has an economic advantage moving from HotS to LotV.
I saw this in a game yesterday where I opened with 2 adepts and killed 16 workers and somehow as I moved out with my 2 base push the Zerg had equalized the worker count and had an army 3x as big as mine.
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On December 16 2015 01:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2015 01:12 tamino wrote:
Dont you think some specific units (lurkers, ravagers, ultra) are not the only problem with lotv zerg ? I mean the entire dynamic of the game, the new economy, seems to me to favor zergs so much. I say that with some care, I'm only diamond, but even when I see pro players harassing zerg like crazy, something I couldn't do with half the result they get, they still get crushed later by pure army size. I absolutely think the economy favors Zerg. Consider 3 hatch before pool. With the 12 worker start this build is much safer than HotS and still produces workers at the same time. Now consider Protoss and the change to Chrono boost where you get more chrono but over a long period of time. The rate at which workers is produced in the early game is significantly reduced relative to HotS. So just off the bat, Zerg has an economic advantage moving from HotS to LotV. I saw this in a game yesterday where I opened with 2 adepts and killed 16 workers and somehow as I moved out with my 2 base push the Zerg had equalized the worker count and had an army 3x as big as mine.
so much bias
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EPT
