EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1227
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
What do y'all think about the balance of the game right now? I think PvT favors Terran slightly. Splash options are limited vs. HotS with Colossi being much weaker. But harass options are stronger. You can pin the Terran in his base and take a 3rd faster in this game. I still think the end game favors T, especially if they make a lot of Widow Mines. Without Colossi it becomes really difficult to clear the mines and fight through/around them. I think PvZ is glaringly broken. Lurkers are too strong, and the only thing that kills Lurkers reasonably (disruptors) is too easily countered by Muta/Ultras. Protoss is pinned in an unwinnable tech switch war. With the economy change, the ability to do early damage to the Zerg is significantly reduced. Double upgrade Zergling into Ultras is very problematic. It used to be that a well timed Colossus push killed this in its tracks. Colossus nerf makes it require twice as many shots to kill a Zergling. So basically, you can't do damage to them early to prevent them from getting their ground God unit (the Lurker). And when they do, there's only one unit that can kill it. So they sit back, and bank up money until you mass disruptors, then they switch into one of two units that kills it with totally different responses. That and there is no Protoss unit that reasonably trades with a 8 armor Ultralisk. Do you agree with me? Disagree? What are YOUR thoughts on balance. Also can someone shed some light on balance in the other matchups? (TvT mech vs bio, TvZ) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16008 Posts
On December 15 2015 05:53 DinoMight wrote: I think PvT favors Terran slightly. Splash options are limited vs. HotS with Colossi being much weaker. But harass options are stronger. You can pin the Terran in his base and take a 3rd faster in this game. I still think the end game favors T, especially if they make a lot of Widow Mines. Without Colossi it becomes really difficult to clear the mines and fight through/around them. wat? disruptors make widow mines useless. otherwise I think tvp is protoss favored before liberators are out, terran favored once liberators are out and protoss favored once tempests are out. Overall probably balanced although terran is even more pidgeonholed into their build(s) than they were in HotS. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 15 2015 05:56 Charoisaur wrote: wat? disruptors make widow mines useless. otherwise I think tvp is protoss favored before liberators are out, terran favored once liberators are out and protoss favored once tempests are out. Overall probably balanced although terran is even more pidgeonholed into their build(s) than they were in HotS. Disruptors can only shoot once every 40 seconds or so... if you're using them to clear mines then the bio is going to wreck your face. I think the Cyclone adds a lot of early game defense potential to counter the added aggression from Protoss. And tanks/liberators synergize really well together especially since you can pick up the tanks. For me it's much closer than PvZ.. but I have to give Terran a definite late game edge. I think if he spreads out well Disruptors just aren't effective enough at killing bio. And they're much harder to use than the Terran's army which is just MMM once all the fancy stuff dies. TLDR: with the colossus essentially out of the picture, Terran basically just has to split... It used to be that if you spread yourself too thin you'd lose because Colossi were dealing reliable damage to small groups of units and your whole army wasn't always attacking at once. Too clumped die to storm to spread out die to Colossus. But now the more spread out you are the better off. Storm/Disruptors are both countered the same way... splitting. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
On December 15 2015 06:28 DinoMight wrote: TLDR: with the colossus essentially out of the picture, Terran basically just has to split... It used to be that if you spread yourself too thin you'd lose because Colossi were dealing reliable damage to small groups of units and your whole army wasn't always attacking at once. Too clumped die to storm to spread out die to Colossus. But now the more spread out you are the better off. Storm/Disruptors are both countered the same way... splitting. Splitting is not the counter to dissruptors, if you do that you will be constantly bleeding units, you have to runaway from the shots, that or hammer on and outright kill the disruptors. | ||
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StaN.de
Germany50 Posts
You don't even have to necessarily go for AoE-Damage vs Terran anymore. You can basically rely on Adept/Immortal/Stalkers to beat Marine/Marauder/Medivac in a straight up fight (watch Polts Youtube replay analysis for more info). The matchup is heavily protoss-favored in nearly all stages of the game and all Terran can do is to rely on (overpowered & bad designed) Liberators and a timing window before the Protoss switches to air units. Tanks are simply bad and not cost-efficient vs protoss. It's basically the same for the cyclone, but Terrans are forced to build them to survive Protoss early game aggression. Try to take a really early 3rd base (easy defend with POC), harass with 3-4 gateway WP Adept pressure at the same time and your winrate should be skyrocketing to 70%+. Good luck in leaving diamond league and reaching masters! | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16008 Posts
On December 15 2015 07:35 StaN.de wrote: @DinoMight You don't even have to necessarily go for AoE-Damage vs Terran anymore. You can basically rely on Adept/Immortal/Stalkers to beat Marine/Marauder/Medivac in a straight up fight (watch Polts Youtube replay analysis for more info). The matchup is heavily protoss-favored in nearly all stages of the game and all Terran can do is to rely on (overpowered & bad designed) Liberators and a timing window before the Protoss switches to air units. Tanks are simply bad and not cost-efficient vs protoss. It's basically the same for the cyclone, but Terrans are forced to build them to survive Protoss early game aggression. Try to take a really early 3rd base (easy defend with POC), harass with 3-4 gateway WP Adept pressure at the same time and your winrate should be skyrocketing to 70%+. Good luck in leaving diamond league and reaching masters! vs liberators you still need Aoe to zone out the bio so you can kill the liberators with stalkers. But it's true that terran is heavily dependant on liberators, without them they would probably never win a game. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Feels very hard in lategame. Any tips from some exprienced player out there? Whats your view? | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On December 15 2015 05:53 DinoMight wrote: I think PvT favors Terran slightly. Splash options are limited vs. HotS with Colossi being much weaker. But harass options are stronger. You can pin the Terran in his base and take a 3rd faster in this game. I still think the end game favors T, especially if they make a lot of Widow Mines. Without Colossi it becomes really difficult to clear the mines and fight through/around them. Early game TvP is incredibly difficult. As terran you can't really attack due to pylon cannon and the threat of prism, so Protoss can be as greedy as they want. You can try to go 3cc behind cyclone and tank a la TY, but then you die to a lot of warp-prism adept attacks. Nor can you easily defend these attacks with a cyclone into barracks build, because they allow for Protoss to play immensely greedy behind them while still pushing out a ton of pressure. I haven't seen a single high-level terran who is actually managing to play early game TvP well, among Polt, HTOMario, Nathanias, ForGG, Major, Kelazhur, and a few more. Liberators are good in midgame TvP, but they get worse by the day as Protoss figure out how to play around them, especially with midgame prisms which are extremely hard to defend properly. Other than that, midgame TvP might be slightly terran favored (although the advent of adept-immortal-storm-phoenix comps scares me a lot), which is a good thing because otherwise I wouldn't ever win any games, and it's hard to enter the midgame without being behind in economy. Lategame TvP for me is a nightmare and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. You can't snipe high templars anymore, because the new snipe is too slow so the ghost just gets feedbacked, so you have to emp, which means moving ghosts ahead of your army. But ghosts are also awful against disruptors, because they aren't fast enough to run away properly, so they are liable to get demolished. They are still near impossible to use properly, as they have been for years. And once Protoss gets tempests, there is literally no answer, so it's just a slow death or hope the Protoss makes several major positioning mistakes. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 15 2015 06:28 DinoMight wrote: Disruptors can only shoot once every 40 seconds or so... if you're using them to clear mines then the bio is going to wreck your face. I think the Cyclone adds a lot of early game defense potential to counter the added aggression from Protoss. And tanks/liberators synergize really well together especially since you can pick up the tanks. For me it's much closer than PvZ.. but I have to give Terran a definite late game edge. I think if he spreads out well Disruptors just aren't effective enough at killing bio. And they're much harder to use than the Terran's army which is just MMM once all the fancy stuff dies. TLDR: with the colossus essentially out of the picture, Terran basically just has to split... It used to be that if you spread yourself too thin you'd lose because Colossi were dealing reliable damage to small groups of units and your whole army wasn't always attacking at once. Too clumped die to storm to spread out die to Colossus. But now the more spread out you are the better off. Storm/Disruptors are both countered the same way... splitting. You can use Disruptor to clear mine easily because all you really need is 1 good hit of disruptor and you win the big fight because Like Stan.de said above, you could just combat terran straight up with stalker,adept,zealot. Now that marauder does 2 shots, falling behind on upgrade really hurts terran a lot. Bio vs gateway unit is not as one sided anymore. Pretty sure most will agree it protoss favor slightly but only due to terrible design Liberator keeping the balance. At least it better than late game TvZ | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On December 15 2015 10:01 royalroadweed wrote: Buff supply depots. It make no sense for depots to take so long to build compared to pylons. Either that or buff supply drop. That does little for high level play. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On December 15 2015 10:01 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: That does little for high level play. It doesn't, but at least it would make sense. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 15 2015 10:01 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: That does little for high level play. Actually a buff to supply drop could be huge. It's free resources, as opposed to mining out faster which forces you to expand faster. If it gave 150 minerals' worth instead of 100, I think that would be super tempting vs the new MULE which gathers, what, 220? And that doesn't even take into consideration lost SCV mining time while building depot. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On December 15 2015 10:08 pure.Wasted wrote: Actually a buff to supply drop could be huge. It's free resources, as opposed to mining out faster which forces you to expand faster. If it gave 150 minerals' worth instead of 100, I think that would be super tempting vs the new MULE which gathers, what, 220? And that doesn't even take into consideration lost SCV mining time while building depot. Maybe that why depots take so freaking long. Blizzard must have expected supply drop to play a bigger role than it has. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12320 Posts
On December 15 2015 09:50 pure.Wasted wrote: puCK vs ByuN going on right now at Gauntlet finals, looks pretty disgusting. Without Liberators ByuN would have been hopeless against someone who hasn't had a premier or major result since 2014. As opposed to ByuN? | ||
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