EPTI was going for brevity. If you'd prefer absolute accuracy, then I would rephrase as "ByuN is #1 GM on Korean ladder, regularly beats the best LOTV Zerg in the world, eg Solar, TRUE, Soulkey, in online tournaments while other Terrans regularly fail to do this, and in 2015 puCK sometimes had a positive record against Koreans such as... Spear, Ares, Werther, and GamJa. Who before today I did not know existed."
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1228
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
I was going for brevity. If you'd prefer absolute accuracy, then I would rephrase as "ByuN is #1 GM on Korean ladder, regularly beats the best LOTV Zerg in the world, eg Solar, TRUE, Soulkey, in online tournaments while other Terrans regularly fail to do this, and in 2015 puCK sometimes had a positive record against Koreans such as... Spear, Ares, Werther, and GamJa. Who before today I did not know existed." | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11915 Posts
On December 15 2015 10:20 pure.Wasted wrote: I was going for brevity. If you'd prefer absolute accuracy, then I would rephrase as "ByuN is #1 GM on Korean ladder, regularly beats the best LOTV Zerg in the world, eg Solar, TRUE, Soulkey, in online tournaments while other Terrans regularly fail to do this, and in 2015 puCK sometimes had a positive record against Koreans such as... Spear, Ares, Werther, and GamJa. Who before today I did not know existed." I'd prefer that, yeah. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
This is kind of fascinating as well, because people probably have this expectation that they are suddenly going to win way more games vs Z if it is nerfed "appropriately" (whatever that means), when in reality the winrates on average are going to change 3-5% over to non Z races so it becomes more balanced, which is something you almost cannot feel while actively playing the game. If you really have such a hard time against Z that your winrate is below 40% or something, your entire handle on the matchup is wrong and anything short of stomping Z balance into the ground will not help you move out of your position. At least that's what I think. People can't honestly be upset about Z in pro levels right now, because the highest level players are doing fine against highest level Zergs. By now some people probably think I'm trolling but I seriously think LotV Z just requires something off players which they haven't had to learn in any other matchup: Scouting and reacting to relatively small changes in what you read from your opponents buildings, drone counts, gas timings etc. This is something Zerg have been doing in all matchups since Day 1 while the vast majority of Toss and Terrans only followed set rigid builds to the end of the game and now complain when the approach doesn't work anymore. I honestly would not be surprised at all if 2 months from now without a patch Z is pretty much gone from Korean GM top 25 because all players finally figure the matchups out. | ||
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iyaerP
United States9 Posts
When Mana, who is decent at PvT, but nothing special, is able to shut down without any effort at all one of the single best TvP players in the world, it is a sign that the matchup is fucked. And in Byun vs Neeb, we see Byun outplaying Neeb at every turn, having far better micro and macro, but losing every single fight anyway, because disruptors and adepts are just flat out better than anything Terran can field. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
Neeb comes out victorious. It's great that Blizzard replaced the Colossus with the micro-intensive Disruptor, it really is. The only problem is they also replaced it with the not micro-intensive Adept. Very frustrating to watch. | ||
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Pentarp
206 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On December 15 2015 11:16 pure.Wasted wrote: 30 minute macro slugfest between ByuN and... Neeb... Neeb comes out victorious. It's great that Blizzard replaced the Colossus with the micro-intensive Disruptor, it really is. The only problem is they also replaced it with the not micro-intensive Adept. Very frustrating to watch. That's the first time I heard the disruptor described as micro intensive. | ||
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Pentarp
206 Posts
On December 15 2015 11:28 heishe wrote: That's the first time I heard the disruptor described as micro intensive. Compared to the collosi, definitely. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On December 15 2015 05:56 Charoisaur wrote: wat? disruptors make widow mines useless. otherwise I think tvp is protoss favored before liberators are out, terran favored once liberators are out and protoss favored once tempests are out. Overall probably balanced although terran is even more pidgeonholed into their build(s) than they were in HotS. Tempests swing it to P favor? What? We all know PvT is Terran favored at the moment, Protoss is REQUIRED to get good disruptor shots (with how useless Colossus is at the moment) or risks being just run over. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 15 2015 11:28 heishe wrote: That's the first time I heard the disruptor described as micro intensive. It does take some skill to use. Watching these pro level games, the Adept harass is really strong. Byun is actually doing really well against the disruptors but he's been behind all game long on econ. There wasn't that much LotV to base my judgement on so I was basing it off my Diamond/Master experience but withholding judgement for now as I watch more pro games. Byun is seriously outplaying neeb right now but the game does seem really hard for him at the moment. EDIT - yeah Byun totally outplayed Neeb but still struggled. I can see TvP being hard at the highest level. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On December 15 2015 09:25 Foxxan wrote: Tvz: Feels very hard in lategame. Any tips from some exprienced player out there? Whats your view? why would you ask for tips in a designed balance thread? go to the help thread for that. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On December 15 2015 11:48 DinoMight wrote: Watching these pro level games, the Adept harass is really strong. Byun is actually doing really well against the disruptors but he's been behind all game long on econ. The problem is that between adepts and PO a terran has to play safe not to die while also not being able to put preassure on a toss who goes for fast third. Right now all the tosses I've seen go for fast 3 base with few gates and 1 robo for obs and the terran can't do much as long as there is 1 or 2 pylons on each base. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 15 2015 11:54 Lexender wrote: The problem is that between adepts and PO a terran has to play safe not to die while also not being able to put preassure on a toss who goes for fast third. Right now all the tosses I've seen go for fast 3 base with few gates and 1 robo for obs and the terran can't do much as long as there is 1 or 2 pylons on each base. There are some really nasty 1/1/1 builds you can do though that are hard to scout on the maps with in base expands, as the Terran walls the front and you can't tell if he's expanded or not unless you float MsC all the way over. But yeah I hear you. With the PO nerf i should be easier for Terrans. But Zerg will fuck us even more. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On December 15 2015 11:46 parkufarku wrote: Tempests swing it to P favor? What? We all know PvT is Terran favored at the moment, Protoss is REQUIRED to get good disruptor shots (with how useless Colossus is at the moment) or risks being just run over. Tempests are literally unbeatable as Terran without significant mistakes from the Protoss. This has been true since the beginning of HotS. Also considering that a lot of Protoss on high masters ladder, and GM from what I see, are delaying splash a ton in favor of way more adepts, and then getting storm, not disruptors, I don't think "protoss is required to get good disruptor shorts or risk being run over." You don't even need a lot of splash anymore. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 15 2015 12:07 DinoMight wrote: There are some really nasty 1/1/1 builds you can do though that are hard to scout on the maps with in base expands, as the Terran walls the front and you can't tell if he's expanded or not unless you float MsC all the way over. But yeah I hear you. With the PO nerf i should be easier for Terrans. But Zerg will fuck us even more. Are there particular problem units in ZvP right now? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11915 Posts
On December 15 2015 11:48 DinoMight wrote: EDIT - yeah Byun totally outplayed Neeb but still struggled. I can see TvP being hard at the highest level. I'll wait until I know how Bunny can beat Stats and Dear, if you don't mind. It's representative of this thread that it can be revived in a period where PvZ is at its lowest aligulac ranking since 2012 and within two posts we're discussing the woes of terran. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 15 2015 12:12 jalstar wrote: Would buffing Thor AA damage vs non-light help vs Tempests or do Thors not have the range? Thor are too slow, and dont even come close to the range. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 15 2015 12:16 Nebuchad wrote: I'll wait until I know how Bunny can beat Stats and Dear, if you don't mind. And Hush beat Maru. Shit happens when Koreans play other Koreans. Shit shouldn't happen when Koreans play foreigners. It's representative of this thread that it can be revived in a period where PvZ is at its lowest aligulac ranking since 2012 and within two posts we're discussing the woes of terran. It's representative of this thread that our discussion is based on high level pro games we've actually seen? I should hope so! Unfortunately there are no high level Korean Protoss in this tournament struggling to get past EU Zergs, so there's not a lot there to talk about. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 15 2015 12:13 pure.Wasted wrote: Are there particular problem units in ZvP right now? Lurkers are too strong. They only have one ground based counter (the Disruptor) but by the time you can get enough out Ultras (also imba) or Muta can be out and you can't effectively deal with both. So it's very much back to the "kill them before they get there" era of WoL PvZ. | ||
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