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On June 07 2015 09:56 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2015 20:14 keglu wrote:On June 01 2015 05:02 usethis2 wrote:
BTW, PvT is not a problem, lol, at least not for P. I do not know how some people argue that with a straight face. I can argue that with straight face. Try argue with fact of 14 straight months of TvP>50%. Last month it went back to50,5 towards Protoss so maybe this trend is stopped. Well, win rates matter but at the highest level you should pay attention to the players' skills in-game. Such as; Macro Micro Strategy/Mind games Map control Minimap awareness Reaction time Crisis management/Decision making Last but not least, APM With the above, seasoned viewers can guage the skill level of a player. Watching PvT matches in GSL and ProLeague, PvT is fine. If anything I see more Protoss getting undeserved wins but wouldn't call the match-up imbalanced. (Terrans will have to learn a better way to deal with Prism/mass Zombilot warp-ins in late game) PvZ is a different matter altogether. Mass Sentries have been problematic since WOL and so is that Zerg early game is exactly the same as in WoL's when Protoss gained a lot more tools in HoTS. It's ridiculous to watch how some pro Protoss "micro" their army by casting Forcefield and holding position, or a-move to a win.
any explanation for "mass sentries are a problem" except "because I think so"?
I can also say mass banelings are a problem since WOL but that doesn't make it true.
At the pro level PvZ seems quite balanced.
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On June 07 2015 09:56 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2015 20:14 keglu wrote:On June 01 2015 05:02 usethis2 wrote:
BTW, PvT is not a problem, lol, at least not for P. I do not know how some people argue that with a straight face. I can argue that with straight face. Try argue with fact of 14 straight months of TvP>50%. Last month it went back to50,5 towards Protoss so maybe this trend is stopped. Well, win rates matter but at the highest level you should pay attention to the players' skills in-game. Such as; Macro Micro Strategy/Mind games Map control Minimap awareness Reaction time Crisis management/Decision making Last but not least, APM With the above, seasoned viewers can guage the skill level of a player. Watching PvT matches in GSL and ProLeague, PvT is fine. If anything I see more Protoss getting undeserved wins but wouldn't call the match-up imbalanced. (Terrans will have to learn a better way to deal with Prism/mass Zombilot warp-ins in late game) PvZ is a different matter altogether. Mass Sentries have been problematic since WOL and so is that Zerg early game is exactly the same as in WoL's when Protoss gained a lot more tools in HoTS. It's ridiculous to watch how some pro Protoss "micro" their army by casting Forcefield and holding position, or a-move to a win.
Can you give me some examples of undeserving Protoss wins in PvT? Also hard to take your arguments seriously when you use phrases "micro" and a-move. Don't think you are really objective whn it comes to Protoss
But generally since Protoss seems to be strongest race in Korea i would not expect any changes in PvT now.
Protoss to me seems like Terran was for long time. Really strong in Korea and week outisde it. This would imply that it's not easy to play as many suggest.
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Bulgaria5962 Posts
On June 07 2015 10:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 09:56 usethis2 wrote:On June 04 2015 20:14 keglu wrote:On June 01 2015 05:02 usethis2 wrote:
BTW, PvT is not a problem, lol, at least not for P. I do not know how some people argue that with a straight face. I can argue that with straight face. Try argue with fact of 14 straight months of TvP>50%. Last month it went back to50,5 towards Protoss so maybe this trend is stopped. Well, win rates matter but at the highest level you should pay attention to the players' skills in-game. Such as; Macro Micro Strategy/Mind games Map control Minimap awareness Reaction time Crisis management/Decision making Last but not least, APM With the above, seasoned viewers can guage the skill level of a player. Watching PvT matches in GSL and ProLeague, PvT is fine. If anything I see more Protoss getting undeserved wins but wouldn't call the match-up imbalanced. (Terrans will have to learn a better way to deal with Prism/mass Zombilot warp-ins in late game) PvZ is a different matter altogether. Mass Sentries have been problematic since WOL and so is that Zerg early game is exactly the same as in WoL's when Protoss gained a lot more tools in HoTS. It's ridiculous to watch how some pro Protoss "micro" their army by casting Forcefield and holding position, or a-move to a win. any explanation for "mass sentries are a problem" except "because I think so"? I can also say mass banelings are a problem since WOL but that doesn't make it true. At the pro level PvZ seems quite balanced. It's the same kind of problem like mass SH or mass raven really.
It's kind of gay.
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On June 07 2015 16:23 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 09:56 usethis2 wrote:On June 04 2015 20:14 keglu wrote:On June 01 2015 05:02 usethis2 wrote:
BTW, PvT is not a problem, lol, at least not for P. I do not know how some people argue that with a straight face. I can argue that with straight face. Try argue with fact of 14 straight months of TvP>50%. Last month it went back to50,5 towards Protoss so maybe this trend is stopped. Well, win rates matter but at the highest level you should pay attention to the players' skills in-game. Such as; Macro Micro Strategy/Mind games Map control Minimap awareness Reaction time Crisis management/Decision making Last but not least, APM With the above, seasoned viewers can guage the skill level of a player. Watching PvT matches in GSL and ProLeague, PvT is fine. If anything I see more Protoss getting undeserved wins but wouldn't call the match-up imbalanced. (Terrans will have to learn a better way to deal with Prism/mass Zombilot warp-ins in late game) PvZ is a different matter altogether. Mass Sentries have been problematic since WOL and so is that Zerg early game is exactly the same as in WoL's when Protoss gained a lot more tools in HoTS. It's ridiculous to watch how some pro Protoss "micro" their army by casting Forcefield and holding position, or a-move to a win. Can you give me some examples of undeserving Protoss wins in PvT? Also hard to take your arguments seriously when you use phrases "micro" and a-move. Don't think you are really objective whn it comes to Protoss But generally since Protoss seems to be strongest race in Korea i would not expect any changes in PvT now. Protoss to me seems like Terran was for long time. Really strong in Korea and week outisde it. This would imply that it's not easy to play as many suggest.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_WCS_Season_2/Challenger
Scroll all the way to the bottom.
Challenger league: 20 Protoss, 15 Terran, 27 Zerg
Premier league: 9 Protoss, 8 Terran, 14 Zerg
Note: This does not appear to include Korea. Does anyone still think Terran is tearing it up outside of Korea?
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On June 07 2015 17:33 Jinchu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2015 16:23 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 09:56 usethis2 wrote:On June 04 2015 20:14 keglu wrote:On June 01 2015 05:02 usethis2 wrote:
BTW, PvT is not a problem, lol, at least not for P. I do not know how some people argue that with a straight face. I can argue that with straight face. Try argue with fact of 14 straight months of TvP>50%. Last month it went back to50,5 towards Protoss so maybe this trend is stopped. Well, win rates matter but at the highest level you should pay attention to the players' skills in-game. Such as; Macro Micro Strategy/Mind games Map control Minimap awareness Reaction time Crisis management/Decision making Last but not least, APM With the above, seasoned viewers can guage the skill level of a player. Watching PvT matches in GSL and ProLeague, PvT is fine. If anything I see more Protoss getting undeserved wins but wouldn't call the match-up imbalanced. (Terrans will have to learn a better way to deal with Prism/mass Zombilot warp-ins in late game) PvZ is a different matter altogether. Mass Sentries have been problematic since WOL and so is that Zerg early game is exactly the same as in WoL's when Protoss gained a lot more tools in HoTS. It's ridiculous to watch how some pro Protoss "micro" their army by casting Forcefield and holding position, or a-move to a win. Can you give me some examples of undeserving Protoss wins in PvT? Also hard to take your arguments seriously when you use phrases "micro" and a-move. Don't think you are really objective whn it comes to Protoss But generally since Protoss seems to be strongest race in Korea i would not expect any changes in PvT now. Protoss to me seems like Terran was for long time. Really strong in Korea and week outisde it. This would imply that it's not easy to play as many suggest. Scroll all the way to the bottom. Challenger league: 20 Protoss, 15 Terran, 27 Zerg Premier league: 9 Protoss, 8 Terran, 14 Zerg Note: This does not appear to include Korea. Does anyone still think Terran is tearing it up outside of Korea?
A different distribution of races doesn't necessarily indicate imbalance, it can arise from a different inherent distribution of talent playing the different races. The fact that for once, our top foreigner is a terran, means that the foreigner Terran situation is probably better than for the last 4 years.
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On June 07 2015 17:33 Jinchu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 16:23 keglu wrote:On June 07 2015 09:56 usethis2 wrote:On June 04 2015 20:14 keglu wrote:On June 01 2015 05:02 usethis2 wrote:
BTW, PvT is not a problem, lol, at least not for P. I do not know how some people argue that with a straight face. I can argue that with straight face. Try argue with fact of 14 straight months of TvP>50%. Last month it went back to50,5 towards Protoss so maybe this trend is stopped. Well, win rates matter but at the highest level you should pay attention to the players' skills in-game. Such as; Macro Micro Strategy/Mind games Map control Minimap awareness Reaction time Crisis management/Decision making Last but not least, APM With the above, seasoned viewers can guage the skill level of a player. Watching PvT matches in GSL and ProLeague, PvT is fine. If anything I see more Protoss getting undeserved wins but wouldn't call the match-up imbalanced. (Terrans will have to learn a better way to deal with Prism/mass Zombilot warp-ins in late game) PvZ is a different matter altogether. Mass Sentries have been problematic since WOL and so is that Zerg early game is exactly the same as in WoL's when Protoss gained a lot more tools in HoTS. It's ridiculous to watch how some pro Protoss "micro" their army by casting Forcefield and holding position, or a-move to a win. Can you give me some examples of undeserving Protoss wins in PvT? Also hard to take your arguments seriously when you use phrases "micro" and a-move. Don't think you are really objective whn it comes to Protoss But generally since Protoss seems to be strongest race in Korea i would not expect any changes in PvT now. Protoss to me seems like Terran was for long time. Really strong in Korea and week outisde it. This would imply that it's not easy to play as many suggest. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_WCS_Season_2/ChallengerScroll all the way to the bottom. Challenger league: 20 Protoss, 15 Terran, 27 Zerg Premier league: 9 Protoss, 8 Terran, 14 Zerg Note: This does not appear to include Korea. Does anyone still think Terran is tearing it up outside of Korea?
I was stating that Protoss is doing opporly outside Korea not the Terran os the strongest.However HOTS Terrans are doing much better in Europe. Bunny is considered best foreigner. With Marinelord, Happy, Dayshi, Uthermal, Heromarine i would say that Terran is arguably strongest in Europe.
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On June 07 2015 18:00 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 17:33 Jinchu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2015 16:23 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 09:56 usethis2 wrote:On June 04 2015 20:14 keglu wrote:On June 01 2015 05:02 usethis2 wrote:
BTW, PvT is not a problem, lol, at least not for P. I do not know how some people argue that with a straight face. I can argue that with straight face. Try argue with fact of 14 straight months of TvP>50%. Last month it went back to50,5 towards Protoss so maybe this trend is stopped. Well, win rates matter but at the highest level you should pay attention to the players' skills in-game. Such as; Macro Micro Strategy/Mind games Map control Minimap awareness Reaction time Crisis management/Decision making Last but not least, APM With the above, seasoned viewers can guage the skill level of a player. Watching PvT matches in GSL and ProLeague, PvT is fine. If anything I see more Protoss getting undeserved wins but wouldn't call the match-up imbalanced. (Terrans will have to learn a better way to deal with Prism/mass Zombilot warp-ins in late game) PvZ is a different matter altogether. Mass Sentries have been problematic since WOL and so is that Zerg early game is exactly the same as in WoL's when Protoss gained a lot more tools in HoTS. It's ridiculous to watch how some pro Protoss "micro" their army by casting Forcefield and holding position, or a-move to a win. Can you give me some examples of undeserving Protoss wins in PvT? Also hard to take your arguments seriously when you use phrases "micro" and a-move. Don't think you are really objective whn it comes to Protoss But generally since Protoss seems to be strongest race in Korea i would not expect any changes in PvT now. Protoss to me seems like Terran was for long time. Really strong in Korea and week outisde it. This would imply that it's not easy to play as many suggest. Scroll all the way to the bottom. Challenger league: 20 Protoss, 15 Terran, 27 Zerg Premier league: 9 Protoss, 8 Terran, 14 Zerg Note: This does not appear to include Korea. Does anyone still think Terran is tearing it up outside of Korea? A different distribution of races doesn't necessarily indicate imbalance, it can arise from a different inherent distribution of talent playing the different races. The fact that for once, our top foreigner is a terran, means that the foreigner Terran situation is probably better than for the last 4 years.
I'm not crying imba here. This thread was revived by people asking for Terran to be nerfed.
On June 07 2015 19:00 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 17:33 Jinchu wrote:On June 07 2015 16:23 keglu wrote:On June 07 2015 09:56 usethis2 wrote:On June 04 2015 20:14 keglu wrote:On June 01 2015 05:02 usethis2 wrote:
BTW, PvT is not a problem, lol, at least not for P. I do not know how some people argue that with a straight face. I can argue that with straight face. Try argue with fact of 14 straight months of TvP>50%. Last month it went back to50,5 towards Protoss so maybe this trend is stopped. Well, win rates matter but at the highest level you should pay attention to the players' skills in-game. Such as; Macro Micro Strategy/Mind games Map control Minimap awareness Reaction time Crisis management/Decision making Last but not least, APM With the above, seasoned viewers can guage the skill level of a player. Watching PvT matches in GSL and ProLeague, PvT is fine. If anything I see more Protoss getting undeserved wins but wouldn't call the match-up imbalanced. (Terrans will have to learn a better way to deal with Prism/mass Zombilot warp-ins in late game) PvZ is a different matter altogether. Mass Sentries have been problematic since WOL and so is that Zerg early game is exactly the same as in WoL's when Protoss gained a lot more tools in HoTS. It's ridiculous to watch how some pro Protoss "micro" their army by casting Forcefield and holding position, or a-move to a win. Can you give me some examples of undeserving Protoss wins in PvT? Also hard to take your arguments seriously when you use phrases "micro" and a-move. Don't think you are really objective whn it comes to Protoss But generally since Protoss seems to be strongest race in Korea i would not expect any changes in PvT now. Protoss to me seems like Terran was for long time. Really strong in Korea and week outisde it. This would imply that it's not easy to play as many suggest. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_WCS_Season_2/ChallengerScroll all the way to the bottom. Challenger league: 20 Protoss, 15 Terran, 27 Zerg Premier league: 9 Protoss, 8 Terran, 14 Zerg Note: This does not appear to include Korea. Does anyone still think Terran is tearing it up outside of Korea? I was stating that Protoss is doing opporly outside Korea not the Terran os the strongest.However HOTS Terrans are doing much better in Europe. Bunny is considered best foreigner. With Marinelord, Happy, Dayshi, Uthermal, Heromarine i would say that Terran is arguably strongest in Europe.
On May 31 2015 04:50 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 22:43 ejozl wrote:PvT is around 46% in last 9 months, seems really bad. What do you think it's a problem here?
PvZ, TvZ around 50% lately. Dno if that's so bad, but personally if anything Terran should be nerfed, I think it should be aimed at SCV pulls, produce the most lame games imo. PvT is really problematic imo. Removing mines bonus damage to shields is quite obvious choice imo. Design wise i would like to seen speed bonus for medivacs removed.
So basically, you can't handle mines and speed medivacs when playing as a Protoss and therefore, mines and medivacs should be nerfed.
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On June 08 2015 03:10 Jinchu wrote:
So basically, you can't handle mines and speed medivacs when playing as a Protoss and therefore, mines and medivacs should be nerfed.
Outside of fact i dont't play sc2 and played onlyTerran you are pretty spot one. Plese continue with your insightful posts.
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Speaking strictly design I feel like removing turbovacs would be good for the game.
Abilities like that force turtling to much.
But if so it should be for lotv.
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On June 08 2015 03:23 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 03:10 Jinchu wrote:
So basically, you can't handle mines and speed medivacs when playing as a Protoss and therefore, mines and medivacs should be nerfed. Outside of fact i dont't play sc2 and played onlyTerran you are pretty spot one. Plese continue with your insightful posts.
That was the only reasonable explanation for your view that Protoss outside of Korea needed help against Terrans and thus warranted a nerf to mine damage versuses shield, and that medivacs needed to lose their speed boost.
And you have no real response to the fact that Protoss is represented just as well outside of Korea as Terran in WCS.
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On June 08 2015 04:34 Gullis wrote:
Speaking strictly design I feel like removing turbovacs would be good for the game.
Abilities like that force turtling to much.
But if so it should be for lotv.
they gave medivacs speed boost because toss got way to good at defending drops in WOL which lead to turtle into deathball fights removing speed buff would do the opposite of what you want.
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a lot of people look at the issue of "turtling" completely wrong. as long as it's viable at all to defend your bases and tech up, "turtling" will be a thing. it becomes a problem when turtling is reliable and strong enough (or aggression is unreliable and weak enough) that there's little incentive to play other styles.
for example when zerg had SH for a long time there was a huge incentive to make a big ball of SH and just start mining out the map and making every tech and waiting to do a huge tech switch, or just starve them out and win with vipers and corruptors. roach/hydra aggression is and was viable, but the longer you spend investing in roach/hydra the more committed you are to winning with it, whereas with a ball of SH you could defend lots of things while making infinite money and opening up lots of strategic options based on what your opponent tries to do, which was particularly strong too because of the larva mechanic. it was only when blink/sentry aggression started consistently hitting a juicy timing against swarm host styles that the meta shifted
now that SH have been nerfed out of core usage, protoss conversely has a big incentive to turtle up to the classic colo/HT deathball because SH were a major counter to templar tech in particular. roach/hydra aggression is more common and safer to blindcounter, and as long as protoss keeps up in economy and scouts the army composition there's nothing preventing them from just out-teching any army zerg can make. this isn't to say skill-based aggression is impossible, but there's an incentive disparity - zerg doesn't want the game to go long anymore because hive tech is not reliable in the way swarm hosts were reliable. protoss can still threaten the same all-ins they've always had, but defensive play is much stronger, which puts zerg in a bad position strategically
as for pvt/tvp, what i see as the problem is that protoss aggression is limited by factory play and it's also extremely "pass/fail" in terms of timings and tech. if you're trying to do a gateway based allin and you have no detection against widow mines or medivacs are about to come out, you'd better win the game immediately. however, conversely, if terran isn't prepared for what you're doing, it can also simply roll them over. it's gotten a bit coinflippish and silly for both sides. protoss has to figure skate around widow mine drops in the same way every single game. one slight mistake and it's already over. if terran screws up too badly and does no damage protoss just takes 3 free bases or wins with a counterattack
i don't claim to know what the best solution is, but i certainly don't think it's to remove speed medivacs. drop play is cool and fast units are more fun than slow ones. but it's not easy to pin down exactly how to improve the matchup either. everything is interlocked based on certain techs - widow mines, stim, blink, colossus, etc. - in a way that really telegraphs how the matchup can develop unless one player is doing something goofy or all-in. as much as i do see the problem with pre-widow mine buff pvt, i also definitely think there's a lot of merit to the idea that the matchup is in an awkward place now and templar openers were really cool to watch at times
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On June 08 2015 07:20 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 04:34 Gullis wrote:
Speaking strictly design I feel like removing turbovacs would be good for the game.
Abilities like that force turtling to much.
But if so it should be for lotv. they gave medivacs speed boost because toss got way to good at defending drops in WOL which lead to turtle into deathball fights removing speed buff would do the opposite of what you want.
I started writing something but then I realized that what I was gonna say have already been said a million times.
It about creating a incentive for protoss being out on the map which goes in to economy which there already are multiple threads about.
So I gracefully bow out of this thread. <.<
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When it comes to drops, what bothers me the most is that Prisms and Overlords have this normal "giant" dot on the minimap, whereas Medivacs are represented by a teeny tiny dot. Other than that, be you a P Z or T player, deflecting drops should be all about map-awareness.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 08 2015 07:20 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 04:34 Gullis wrote:
Speaking strictly design I feel like removing turbovacs would be good for the game.
Abilities like that force turtling to much.
But if so it should be for lotv. they gave medivacs speed boost because toss got way to good at defending drops in WOL which lead to turtle into deathball fights removing speed buff would do the opposite of what you want.
Problem isn't turtling, problem is mobility of Protoss. Unless you go phoenix colossus you have less mobile composition than bio player(and if you go phoenix colossus you have very fragile composition, so you still turtle because you will lose the open fight). Yes, protoss has blink stalkers, but they are very dependent on the map layout and once you use it you cannot go back defend the other base because medevacs changed the route.
And I am not saying it's now unbalanced, the maps are not that bad as it used to be, but generally speaking Protoss has huge problems in defending players who can go bat shit crazy into dropping style. And almost all of us love this style, because it shows the amount of skill from Terran and it looks gorgeous when Maru micros on almost 3 screens at the same time. But then you realize there's nothing you can do about it. Either you have "point & click" defense with templar/chargelot opening - which is as dead as it can be right now, or you literally hope you can split perfectly your army to deal with multiple pronged harass(how many of us is Rain?). Or you deal some eco damage from the start with some cool units like, I don't know, Oracle, so Terran isn't going to kill you with drops. I personally call this the Parting way 
And again, from design view it is a big problem, that's why Protoss has recall so fast.
From a balance view it is not that big of a deal as is shown in GSL/S*L, where we have enough Protoss power.
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So, since the swarmhosts finally got 'removed' why dont we take a look at the early game zvp/zvt. A stage of the game where a lot has changed for terran and protoss but not so much for zerg.
Since wol terran and protoss got a few neat tool for their early game most importantly reapers and the mothership core, they are so good you see them in almost every game against zerg.
Even though zergs do not bothers to open with 1 base cheese anymore terrans still open with reaper even though cc first would be very safe in the current meta. And the mothership core enables the protoss to go for some very greedy builds that would have been insanely risky in wol.
Zerg got overlord speed and burrow moved to hatchery tech which can hardly considered a buff since they are so expensive that you can not afford them in almost any case untill the midgame where you have a lair anyways.
On top of that we got some nice things for terran and protoss entering the midgame: hellbats, widow mines, oracle, cheaper cloak,cheaper dark shrine, free haluzinations, free hellbat transformation, free siege tank upgrade. All of them come into play before the first real buff to zerg that are mutalisks, hydra speed and tunneling claw roaches.
That beeing said i think zerg could need a real early game buff. My suggestion would be to buff the zerglings attack rate or hp (2-5 hp).
I think terran and protoss got plenty of tools to deal with zerglings and it could give zergs a little more reliability in the early game. On top of that from a design point of view i dont think anyone ever complains about zerglings leading to boring games so if we can see more of them it would be great for spectators as well.
What do you guys think about a zergling or other zerg early game buff?
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Buffing zergling this way is overall buff, not early game buff.
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Of course every early game buff has direct or indirect impact on the later stages of the game there is no unit/upgrade that suddenly gets removed when a timer runs out.
I wanted to start this discussion because most of what i have seen beeing discussed about zerg is mid/late game and i think the changes to the early game dynamic from wol to hots are overlooked. Even though i think the problems are quite obvious.
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EPT
