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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
PvT is around 46% in last 9 months, seems really bad. What do you think it's a problem here? PvZ, TvZ around 50% lately. Dno if that's so bad, but personally if anything Terran should be nerfed, I think it should be aimed at SCV pulls, produce the most lame games imo. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On May 30 2015 22:43 ejozl wrote: Dno if that's so bad, but personally if anything Terran should be nerfed, I think it should be aimed at SCV pulls, produce the most lame games imo. do you think that if terran thought they had a good chance vs late game P that they would avoid throwing away their economy for a single attack at the end of the midgame? | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On May 30 2015 22:43 ejozl wrote: Dno if that's so bad, but personally if anything Terran should be nerfed, I think it should be aimed at SCV pulls, produce the most lame games imo. PvT is really problematic imo. Removing mines bonus damage to shields is quite obvious choice imo. Design wise i would like to seen speed bonus for medivacs removed. | ||
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On May 31 2015 04:50 keglu wrote: PvT is really problematic imo. Removing mines bonus damage to shields is quite obvious choice imo. Design wise i would like to seen speed bonus for medivacs removed. Pretend WM get nerfed as u suggest and speed for vecs is removed. If that's all, then prepare for games where Protoss has all the freedom in the world of PvT and Terrans have even less working options than they currently have. WM and speedvec are good no doubt. But other than that, there is nothing that keeps Terrans alive. Before suggesting this, think also about alternatives that makes this MU more interesting and colorful for both sides. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
On May 30 2015 23:07 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: do you think that if terran thought they had a good chance vs late game P that they would avoid throwing away their economy for a single attack at the end of the midgame? I think more are capable of playing late game TvP than we currently see. It's probably not worth it atm to practice for the late game, since you can obtain higher win rate practicing mid game harass->scv pull. 4% from 50% is not much, but if it's put towards allowing Protoss to enter the late game, maybe we will at least see a few more Terrans try going into the late game. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On May 31 2015 05:07 Phaenoman wrote: Pretend WM get nerfed as u suggest and speed for vecs is removed. If that's all, then prepare for games where Protoss has all the freedom in the world of PvT and Terrans have even less working options than they currently have. WM and speedvec are good no doubt. But other than that, there is nothing that keeps Terrans alive. Before suggesting this, think also about alternatives that makes this MU more interesting and colorful for both sides. Medivac nerf i would like to see in Lotv (since it's imo just bad design). It's too big of a change for now. Mine nerf is for now to bring winrates to acceptable level. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
We have 8P 5T 3Z left on GSL/SSL. | ||
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Agh
United States899 Posts
Would like to see widow mines brought down to around 50 hp. Their current health is pretty unjustified. You can just blindly build a cannon in your mineral line every game because the mine/marine suicide drop is coming. I don't think medivac speed boost should be changed, reducing their health would be a better direction but I just think mines are plaguing the ZvT and PvT matchups in their own respective ways. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On May 31 2015 14:17 sibs wrote: Isn't protoss like... doing really really well? We have 8P 5T 3Z left on GSL/SSL. Thats problematic too. There are few Top Protoss players that are doing really well but i feel like below that level it's not really balanced right now. On May 31 2015 14:46 Agh wrote: Widow mines and map layout doom drops are the only reason Terrans are favored currently. Would like to see widow mines brought down to around 50 hp. Their current health is pretty unjustified. You can just blindly build a cannon in your mineral line every game because the mine/marine suicide drop is coming. I don't think medivac speed boost should be changed, reducing their health would be a better direction but I just think mines are plaguing the ZvT and PvT matchups in their own respective ways. I thin mines are ok in ZvT. Zerg has zerglings to sacrifice/redirect mines to Terran army. So it's quite interesting. Still think medivac speed is a problem - drops should be more risky. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On May 31 2015 18:42 keglu wrote: Thats problematic too. There are few Top Protoss players that are doing really well but i feel like below that level it's not really balanced right now. I thin mines are ok in ZvT. Zerg has zerglings to sacrifice/redirect mines to Terran army. So it's quite interesting. Still think medivac speed is a problem - drops should be more risky. There are a lot more protoss players doing well than zerg´s. For a long time there has really been only one zerg that has been really challenging for trophies. Strange that the discussion is about protoss when it is currently beating the living shit out of zerg. I agree about terran drops as one successful drop is enough even if you fail with the first 3-5 attempts. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On May 31 2015 18:54 RaFox17 wrote: There are a lot more protoss players doing well than zerg´s. For a long time there has really been only one zerg that has been really challenging for trophies. Strange that the discussion is about protoss when it is currently beating the living shit out of zerg. I agree about terran drops as one successful drop is enough even if you fail with the first 3-5 attempts. Since i'm talking about TvP not sure how it's Zerg related. Also "Protoss beating living shit out of Zerg" does not show in statistics (PvZ very close to 50% in last 6 months) | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On May 31 2015 21:38 keglu wrote: Since i'm talking about TvP not sure how it's Zerg related. Also "Protoss beating living shit out of Zerg" does not show in statistics (PvZ very close to 50% in last 6 months) the manner in which zvp plays out is horrible zerg is basically resigned to all ins, its an aweful matchup to play, zvt is quite ok though i think. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Bio needs to be weakened as bio is the hardcounter to everything that is not splash, hardcounters to bio need to be weakened (e.g. banelings). Transitions for terran will be created. Issues are still the same: One successful bio drop ends a game. Bio is too strong and too mobile (with medivacs) at the same time. Bio is the perfect main army component and harrassment style at the same time. Probes/Drones can hardly run away from stimmed bio, buildings die within seconds to upgraded stimmed bio. One possible solution for LOTV could be: removal of marauders in the early game. Reintroduction of marauders as lategame bio untis. Giving reapers a bigger role in standard bio compositions that in the beginning can make up for the missing marauder (possibly with an upgrade that switch them from a harrassment unit to a more normal unit). | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On May 31 2015 21:57 LSN wrote: The key to the big issues of SC2 is to disallow terran to play pure bio into 80% bio in both TvZ and TvP. Sure, let's make more Terrans play mech in TvZ. It's so much more dynamic and entertaining  | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On May 31 2015 22:06 keglu wrote: Sure, let's make more Terrans play mech in TvZ. It's so much more dynamic and entertaining You don't understand. Bio is like the lady in chess. It can do all the important basic moves at the same time and your opponent is having only them. This by default reduces strategic diversity. (Bio = best anti air combined with vikings, best main army, best harrassment in mobility and dps, zero to few gas costs) Causal connections: Due to the overwhelming strength of bio, the potential mech component of bio+mech composition can't be relatively buffed without making terran overpowered (different combinations of bio+mech compositions should be the goal for sc2, not pure mech or pure bio). Then cause they can't buff mech (relatively), you wont create incentives for those bio+mech compositions. (Sidenote: Thor needs to be removed. It creates too random and unreliable results (magic box mutas vs. clumped mutas) and should be simply replaced by a unit like the goliath). Then again, if you don't create incentives for compositions where bio is in the minority, SC2 will forever be stuck in bio vs splash hardcounter vs. hardcounter situations that it is now. This creates SCV all-in as well as muta/bling only since 5 years. The shortage of gas in any way makes bio interesting again by default. As an example, ppl forget that in broodwar lategame TvP bio become interesting again simply due to fact that it costs almost no gas and gas in BW was the limiting factor for dominating terran units just as it is now for protoss and zerg still. Therefore we were going to see mech into bio transitions in such a meta in any way. Also bio is still a nice addition to mech with just a few damage upgrades (without having to go 2-2 into 3-3 asap) and can replace helions/helbats in certain situations. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On May 31 2015 22:27 LSN wrote: Due to the overwhelming strength of bio, the potential mech component of bio+mech composition can't be relatively buffed without making terran overpowered (different combinations of bio+mech compositions should be the goal for sc2, not pure mech or pure bio). Mech components cannot be buffed since current mech is strong enough in 2 matchups.Some even say mech is too strong as it is in TvZ. TvT is considered best mirror, TvZ best matchup. I think Terran desing is ok. Tanks reutrn in TvZ bio would be nice though. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On May 31 2015 23:01 keglu wrote: Mech components cannot be buffed since current mech is strong enough in 2 matchups.Some even say mech is too strong as it is in TvZ. TvT is considered best mirror, TvZ best matchup. I think Terran desing is ok. Tanks reutrn in TvZ bio would be nice though. I cannot say a single thing against this. It is all true. But what I can say: Mech has been designed a bit like bio, a complete thing in its own. They should have rather given each style its holes that must be complemented. Mech, tho, is naturally limited by gas. Therefore at many points a terran gets the choice to add bio to the composition instead of spamming hellbats/helions. But 2-3 occasional tanks or thors mixed into the bio army doesn't create diversity at all. Zerg is still stuck on the task to deal with the bio. Thats the issue. From the pace of the game TvZ might be the best matchup. But when playing it then it becomes highly repetitive and boring. It is on the zerg side all about ling, bling and muta and microing them well as bio is too strong and mobile to be faced with anything else of the zerg repertoire. Anyway lets see how LOTV develops. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On May 31 2015 23:11 LSN wrote: I cannot say a single thing against this. It is all true. But what I can say: Mech has been designed a bit like bio, a complete thing in its own. They should have rather given each style its holes that must be complemented. Mech, tho, is naturally limited by gas. Therefore at many points a terran gets the choice to add bio to the composition instead of spamming hellbats/helions. But 2-3 occasional tanks or thors mixed into the bio army doesn't create diversity at all. Zerg is still stuck on the task to deal with the bio. Thats the issue. From the pace of the game TvZ might be the best matchup. But when playing it then it becomes highly repetitive and boring. It is on the zerg side all about ling, bling and muta and microing them well as bio is too strong and mobile to be faced with anything else of the zerg repertoire. Anyway lets see how LOTV develops. It's hard for me to imagine scenario where it would be beneficial for mech player to add marines as mineral dump . For that you need multiple barracks, stim, combat shield and then you after few minutes you have 0-0 marines ready to fight (medivacs would be useful too) .I'm not playing sc2 so cannot comment on repetitive part. I've heard that mech is more popular now so at least you have some diversity. Think about Protoss players vT. That must be repetitive. (for Terrans too) | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Right now I think the Protoss has to be significantly better than the Terran to win. But this is on the new maps... this wasn't the case in the last map rotation, and the units have not changed. I think the bases are more spread out and there is more maneuvering space for the Terran. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On May 31 2015 05:10 ejozl wrote: I think more are capable of playing late game TvP than we currently see. It's probably not worth it atm to practice for the late game, since you can obtain higher win rate practicing mid game harass->scv pull. 4% from 50% is not much, but if it's put towards allowing Protoss to enter the late game, maybe we will at least see a few more Terrans try going into the late game. Anyone who says lategame TvP is easily playable and fair has definitely not tried to play it and hasn't watched the large number of lategame TvPs in the last 4 years which generally end in failure for the terran for the same reasons every time. Midgame harass-->scv pull isn't even that good at high level anyway but Terrans still try it because the alternative is an almost certain demise. | ||
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