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On January 24 2015 02:25 w3c.TruE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 21:51 igscubanex wrote:
More like lets said that the P tries to do a 2 base all in, and then i make a lot of units and he backs, now i cant counter atack a 1 ForceField Ramp. And it also limits a lot of 2 base agression from the zerg. I think the last thing we need is map limiting our builds. If P tries to do a 2base all-in and fails, you don't have to counterattack. You should be on 3 bases obviously, so you just contain him on 2 bases, tech up and take forth eventually. Also 2 base aggresion from Zerg is terrible regardless of the map...
soO vs Zest, GSL finals, Frost: 2base proxy roach allin, that works because the entrance is more than a single wide ramp
soO vs Zest, GSL semifinals, Habitation station, 2base proxy gold spine crawler into ling/hydra, that works because the entrance is more than a single wide ramp
soO vs Zest, Merry Go Round, 2base mass speedling allin with a proxy hatch to block the ramp, that works because the ramp is huge
GSL group stage, Life vs herO: King Sejong station, 9pool into two base mass ling allin that works because there is a backdoor and the front ramp needs a lot of buildings to wall off
GSL group stage, Life vs herO: not a 2base, but a 3base speedling counter attack on overgrowth, that works because a single sentry to block the ramp isn't enough.
GSL group stage, Life vs Classic: 2base speedling that worked because of the choke point
Please tell me again how zerg aggression into 2base protoss is bad. Given how Zest, herO, Rain and others have been slapping around zergs left and right in macro games ("Protoss is overpowered" -Life), cheeses have been one of the most convenient strategies in the matchup lately for top-Zergs.
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On January 24 2015 00:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2015 00:16 Ghanburighan wrote:
P.S. I wrote a summary of Aligulac Lists a few posts back, but there was almost no response. Is the lack of response due to the fact that it's Aligulac or because it was decidedly pointing towards a lack of balance issues. You do a good job with those. The only thing that I could point out (again) is that aligulac is not completely coherent with the Korean, European and American prolevel. E.g. In Korea the amount of mirrors and race distributions currently in proleague, NSSL and GSL is T=P>Z, so the exact opposite of aligulac. In EU and AM Challenger it is roughly equal for all 3races, so still not coherent with the "more Zerg and Protoss mirrors" from aligulac. I've been arguing this now for about a year or so and therefore watched the data for a long period. The aligulac data isn't more than a balance indicator. We have seen times with only barely over 50% winrate for Protoss against Terran, but in Korea blink allins wrecked the Terrans and led to 16Protoss and 3Terrans in GSL. We have recently seen times in which Protoss was looking like it was not playable against zerg for short time-durations on aligulac, while in proleague and multiple challenger/qualifiers PvZ was at around 75-80% winratio and struggling in not a single league. I know I sound like a broken record, but that is why I didn't reply to the data in the first place. Aligulac looks nice currently. More intersting is that all the Premier and Challenger Leagues look balanced, with some neglectable distribution disadvantages for Zerg in Korea.
That's good feedback, I actually played around with the data a bit to see if I could accommodate these worries, but it seemed that one would need to add a great deal of manual data, which I didn't have time to process.
But out of curiosity, let's flip it around. If Aligulac showed a problem, what would it look like and could it be taken seriously? If yes, what kind of a problem would it be?
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Aligulac is the go-to-resource for every Terran trying to deny their race is broken. You can easily cherry-pick stats on Aligulac, and every T poster who has cited Aligulac is incredibly biased.
Just don't use Aligulac. Just no.
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On January 26 2015 03:43 parkufarku wrote:
Aligulac is the go-to-resource for every Terran trying to deny their race is broken. You can easily cherry-pick stats on Aligulac, and every T poster who has cited Aligulac is incredibly biased.
Just don't use Aligulac. Just no.
Like other races don't cherry pick Aligulac for their own purposes
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On January 26 2015 03:43 parkufarku wrote:
Aligulac is the go-to-resource for every Terran trying to deny their race is broken. You can easily cherry-pick stats on Aligulac, and every T poster who has cited Aligulac is incredibly biased.
Just don't use Aligulac. Just no.
I recall something about kettles and cauldrons.
I would like to point out a few things:
a) Aligulac was used for about 1.5 years to point out that T was in fact broken, as in it was horribly underpowered.
b) There's no unnamed terrans you're calling biased, I compiled the data, you're calling me biased. I'll let everyone make up their own mind on this.
c) As for cherry picking, it's quite opposite. Aligulac doesn't really allow for one to modify the data sufficiently (for example, the lists include the Oceania region which is massively Z dominated, polluting the population numbers somewhat). So it's quite opposite of cherry-picking, what you see is what you get with Aligulac. It just has some obvious draw-backs everyone should know by now.
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On January 26 2015 04:32 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2015 03:43 parkufarku wrote:
Aligulac is the go-to-resource for every Terran trying to deny their race is broken. You can easily cherry-pick stats on Aligulac, and every T poster who has cited Aligulac is incredibly biased.
Just don't use Aligulac. Just no. I recall something about kettles and cauldrons. I would like to point out a few things: a) Aligulac was used for about 1.5 years to point out that T was in fact broken, as in it was horribly underpowered. b) There's no unnamed terrans you're calling biased, I compiled the data, you're calling me biased. I'll let everyone make up their own mind on this. c) As for cherry picking, it's quite opposite. Aligulac doesn't really allow for one to modify the data sufficiently (for example, the lists include the Oceania region which is massively Z dominated, polluting the population numbers somewhat). So it's quite opposite of cherry-picking, what you see is what you get with Aligulac. It just has some obvious draw-backs everyone should know by now.
Always love it when people act all all tough but then are too afraid to actually engage in a confrontation with who they called out. :D
It's really not like there is so much discussion going on currently that you could just point at some bigger group of people. (dead game I guess ^^)
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On January 26 2015 04:32 Ghanburighan wrote:
c) As for cherry picking, it's quite opposite. Aligulac doesn't really allow for one to modify the data sufficiently (for example, the lists include the Oceania region which is massively Z dominated, polluting the population numbers somewhat). So it's quite opposite of cherry-picking, what you see is what you get with Aligulac. It just has some obvious draw-backs everyone should know by now.
The main thing people do with Aligulac is focus on only a very specific time frame (usually a short one where a race has won more than another) or they remove "superfluous" data like the matches that contradicts their claims.
What people don't like about Aligulac is that it shows that the pro scene is about as balanced as the ladder scene, or more specifically that its about even for all matchups give or take random movements in percentages every few months +/- 5%
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On January 26 2015 04:32 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2015 03:43 parkufarku wrote:
Aligulac is the go-to-resource for every Terran trying to deny their race is broken. You can easily cherry-pick stats on Aligulac, and every T poster who has cited Aligulac is incredibly biased.
Just don't use Aligulac. Just no. I recall something about kettles and cauldrons. I would like to point out a few things: a) Aligulac was used for about 1.5 years to point out that T was in fact broken, as in it was horribly underpowered. b) There's no unnamed terrans you're calling biased, I compiled the data, you're calling me biased. I'll let everyone make up their own mind on this. c) As for cherry picking, it's quite opposite. Aligulac doesn't really allow for one to modify the data sufficiently (for example, the lists include the Oceania region which is massively Z dominated, polluting the population numbers somewhat). So it's quite opposite of cherry-picking, what you see is what you get with Aligulac. It just has some obvious draw-backs everyone should know by now.
You do realize T posters have been quoting Aligulac wayyyy before you on this thread right?
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On January 26 2015 03:43 parkufarku wrote:
Aligulac is the go-to-resource for every Terran trying to deny their race is broken. You can easily cherry-pick stats on Aligulac, and every T poster who has cited Aligulac is incredibly biased.
Just don't use Aligulac. Just no.
Can you cherrypick some data to show us how Terran is broken?
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Damn TvZ
PvT 93–93 (50.00%)
PvZ 183–183 (50.00%)
TvZ 109–106 (50.70%)
On serious note, is Zerg still weaker in both matchups?
They did reaylly good in challanger (13Z in Premier), GSL and SSL.
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GSL so far 5 T 5P and 5 Z
SSL so far 3 P 3Z and 1T
WCS Premier 10P 13Z 9T
Mind you all of these were played on the old mappool. Maybe now people will stop jumping to conclusions after a patch and let the game evolve. Probably not.
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On January 26 2015 03:43 parkufarku wrote:
Aligulac is the go-to-resource for every Terran trying to deny their race is broken. You can easily cherry-pick stats on Aligulac, and every T poster who has cited Aligulac is incredibly biased.
Just don't use Aligulac. Just no.
I believe that like a year ago when protoss was dominating vs terran, protosses in this thread cited aligulac and tried to prove terran imbalanced with that. lol
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On January 30 2015 03:26 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2015 03:43 parkufarku wrote:
Aligulac is the go-to-resource for every Terran trying to deny their race is broken. You can easily cherry-pick stats on Aligulac, and every T poster who has cited Aligulac is incredibly biased.
Just don't use Aligulac. Just no. I believe that like a year ago when protoss was dominating vs terran, protosses in this thread cited aligulac and tried to prove terran imbalanced with that. lol
Yup. He's biased against Terran and reality does not seem to agree with him according to the stats on this page.
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Parkufarku you've proven multiple times you are extremely biased against terran. Forgot that ridiculous list of balance suggestions of yours?
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On January 30 2015 04:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
Parkufarku you've proven multiple times you are extremely biased against terran. Forgot that ridiculous list of balance suggestions of yours?
Oh. So it was him who made those "balance" suggestions :D
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On January 30 2015 04:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
Parkufarku you've proven multiple times you are extremely biased against terran. Forgot that ridiculous list of balance suggestions of yours?
and TheDwf has his ridiculous list of balance suggestions when T was dominating already, what's your point?
The biased one calls me biased. Pot kettle.
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On January 30 2015 09:57 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 04:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
Parkufarku you've proven multiple times you are extremely biased against terran. Forgot that ridiculous list of balance suggestions of yours? and TheDwf has his ridiculous list of balance suggestions when T was dominating already, what's your point? The biased one calls me biased. Pot kettle.
I'm pretty sure it was SC2Toastie that called you biased not TheDwf. I didn't see dwf balance suggesttions so I can't comment there. Either way I don't see how it matters, yours is still awful regardless.
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I think he is trolling tbh.
right???
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On January 30 2015 10:42 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I think he is trolling tbh.
right???
Whenever I think someone is a troll I realized its actually me hoping that person is a troll.
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On January 30 2015 09:57 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 04:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
Parkufarku you've proven multiple times you are extremely biased against terran. Forgot that ridiculous list of balance suggestions of yours? and TheDwf has his ridiculous list of balance suggestions when T was dominating already, what's your point? The biased one calls me biased. Pot kettle.
We can use this as a lesson: this is what's called `whataboutism' - when you're called out for doing something wrong, you need to divert the topic by pointing at someone else that might have done something wrong. You preferably pick a topic where some people would be inclined to argue for and others against, as that would require the other interlocutors to spend the most amount of time not talking about what you did wrong.
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EPT
