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On January 14 2015 04:43 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 04:13 Charoisaur wrote:On January 13 2015 02:17 keglu wrote:
What about PDD?. Terran air againts Zerg seems more broken then WoL infestor bl againts Protoss (at least Protoss had archon toilet). Nerf it or restore upgrades for infested Terrnas. Interesting that there is no more talking about it. There is no more talking about it because it's not a problem at pro level. Mech is very rarely played and that has a reason. Why should you nerf something which is seen in maybe 10% of the games. No need to make the game even more stale than it is. Funny how zergs always complain that terran wins with just tier 1 units (because medivacs and thors are tier 1 lol) but when terran builds expensive high tier units they cry even harder. Guess terran isn't supposed to have a lategame. If you want to nerf ravens, swarmhosts have to be fixed first or mech will be never seen again. Im was Terran player and i support Terran pro players. I only talk about pro level since i dont play sc2. I feel like Mech into mass raven is getting more popular lately. I dont agree with statement abotu swarmhost. I think that with tanks terran an deal with swarmhost without abillity to completely negate its damage (can be wrong here of course). I prefer watching bio TvZ so less mech is not bad change for me  .
without ravens you will constantly lose units to the locusts when trying to leapfrog forward, so you absolutely need those ravens or you die.
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Ravens are getting changed for LOTV, PDD only lasts 40 seconds.
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On January 14 2015 04:50 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 04:36 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Terran needs the Raven really hard with its PDD: Swarmhost and tempest and reduce damage for the viking/thors when fighting mass muta's. Without the raven terran wouldnt stand a change. Want to get rid of the PDD? fix SH, tempest and muta's vs terran. Mass muta's really? Even in mech you still have Thors, vikings and mines.
We are not talking about bronze level where they clump mass mutas. Magicbox , unitcontrol etc?....
Go in the unit tester and see for yourself how well magicbox mutas works vs thors and vikings.....
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On January 14 2015 04:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 04:43 keglu wrote:On January 14 2015 04:13 Charoisaur wrote:On January 13 2015 02:17 keglu wrote:
What about PDD?. Terran air againts Zerg seems more broken then WoL infestor bl againts Protoss (at least Protoss had archon toilet). Nerf it or restore upgrades for infested Terrnas. Interesting that there is no more talking about it. There is no more talking about it because it's not a problem at pro level. Mech is very rarely played and that has a reason. Why should you nerf something which is seen in maybe 10% of the games. No need to make the game even more stale than it is. Funny how zergs always complain that terran wins with just tier 1 units (because medivacs and thors are tier 1 lol) but when terran builds expensive high tier units they cry even harder. Guess terran isn't supposed to have a lategame. If you want to nerf ravens, swarmhosts have to be fixed first or mech will be never seen again. Im was Terran player and i support Terran pro players. I only talk about pro level since i dont play sc2. I feel like Mech into mass raven is getting more popular lately. I dont agree with statement abotu swarmhost. I think that with tanks terran an deal with swarmhost without abillity to completely negate its damage (can be wrong here of course). I prefer watching bio TvZ so less mech is not bad change for me . without ravens you will constantly lose units to the locusts when trying to leapfrog forward, so you absolutely need those ravens or you die.
Im sure there is solution which does not include negating almost whole Zerg antyair. Protoss is dealing with swarmhosts without PDD.
On January 14 2015 05:00 SC2Toastie wrote:
Ravens are getting changed for LOTV, PDD only lasts 40 seconds.
Do we know LOTV release date? Also with 40s Zerg still cannot engage in combat. What is idea behind this change?
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protoss has much more AOE output, storm, colossus, tempest, forcefields (last one is to prevent taking damage)
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On January 14 2015 05:18 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 04:55 Charoisaur wrote:On January 14 2015 04:43 keglu wrote:On January 14 2015 04:13 Charoisaur wrote:On January 13 2015 02:17 keglu wrote:
What about PDD?. Terran air againts Zerg seems more broken then WoL infestor bl againts Protoss (at least Protoss had archon toilet). Nerf it or restore upgrades for infested Terrnas. Interesting that there is no more talking about it. There is no more talking about it because it's not a problem at pro level. Mech is very rarely played and that has a reason. Why should you nerf something which is seen in maybe 10% of the games. No need to make the game even more stale than it is. Funny how zergs always complain that terran wins with just tier 1 units (because medivacs and thors are tier 1 lol) but when terran builds expensive high tier units they cry even harder. Guess terran isn't supposed to have a lategame. If you want to nerf ravens, swarmhosts have to be fixed first or mech will be never seen again. Im was Terran player and i support Terran pro players. I only talk about pro level since i dont play sc2. I feel like Mech into mass raven is getting more popular lately. I dont agree with statement abotu swarmhost. I think that with tanks terran an deal with swarmhost without abillity to completely negate its damage (can be wrong here of course). I prefer watching bio TvZ so less mech is not bad change for me . without ravens you will constantly lose units to the locusts when trying to leapfrog forward, so you absolutely need those ravens or you die. Im sure there is solution which does not include negating almost whole Zerg antyair. Protoss is dealing with swarmhosts without PDD. Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 05:00 SC2Toastie wrote:
Ravens are getting changed for LOTV, PDD only lasts 40 seconds. Do we know LOTV release date? Also with 40s Zerg still cannot engage in combat. What is idea behind this change?
Yeah protoss also has gigantic walking seige tanks and a hero unit that cloaks their entire army. Big surprise there, lol.
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On January 14 2015 04:36 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Terran needs the Raven really hard with its PDD: Swarmhost and tempest and reduce damage for the viking/thors when fighting mass muta's. Without the raven terran wouldnt stand a change. Want to get rid of the PDD? fix SH, tempest and muta's vs terran.
Wow. SHs are not that big of a problem, simple bio kills SH. By the time Protoss can afford a tempest army, T would already have mass Ravens which are superior. And you're seriously complaining about mutas? lol. If you want mutas nerfed, nerf marine first.
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On January 14 2015 05:28 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
protoss has much more AOE output, storm, colossus, tempest, forcefields (last one is to prevent taking damage)
Yeah, without them, Protoss dies instantly to an equal resources T army.
With them, P may or may not win against a T army. That's how much superior the T deathball is.
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On January 14 2015 05:50 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 04:36 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Terran needs the Raven really hard with its PDD: Swarmhost and tempest and reduce damage for the viking/thors when fighting mass muta's. Without the raven terran wouldnt stand a change. Want to get rid of the PDD? fix SH, tempest and muta's vs terran. Wow. SHs are not that big of a problem, simple bio kills SH. By the time Protoss can afford a tempest army, T would already have mass Ravens which are superior. And you're seriously complaining about mutas? lol. If you want mutas nerfed, nerf marine first.
On January 14 2015 05:50 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 05:28 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
protoss has much more AOE output, storm, colossus, tempest, forcefields (last one is to prevent taking damage) Yeah, without them, Protoss dies instantly to an equal resources T army. With them, P may or may not win against a T army. That's how much superior the T deathball is.
I think you seriously need to take a step back and/or play terran for a bit, 'cause your appreciation of a terran army's strength seems... let's say a bit off. Yeah, let's say that.
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On January 14 2015 05:50 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 04:36 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Terran needs the Raven really hard with its PDD: Swarmhost and tempest and reduce damage for the viking/thors when fighting mass muta's. Without the raven terran wouldnt stand a change. Want to get rid of the PDD? fix SH, tempest and muta's vs terran. Wow. SHs are not that big of a problem, simple bio kills SH. By the time Protoss can afford a tempest army, T would already have mass Ravens which are superior. And you're seriously complaining about mutas? lol. If you want mutas nerfed, nerf marine first.
I dont complain, im fine with the currect situation, so please read twice before comment.
On January 14 2015 05:50 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 05:28 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
protoss has much more AOE output, storm, colossus, tempest, forcefields (last one is to prevent taking damage) Yeah, without them, Protoss dies instantly to an equal resources T army. With them, P may or may not win against a T army. That's how much superior the T deathball is.
Once more, that wasnt the point. But i'll explain it to you: Someone is asking how Protoss is dealing with SH, the answer i gave is how protoss is dealing with it. No one is crying for adjustments or state that things are imba. So, calm down, take a sip of water, have no fear, no one says that things needs to be adjusted. lols.
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On January 14 2015 05:50 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 04:36 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Terran needs the Raven really hard with its PDD: Swarmhost and tempest and reduce damage for the viking/thors when fighting mass muta's. Without the raven terran wouldnt stand a change. Want to get rid of the PDD? fix SH, tempest and muta's vs terran. Wow. SHs are not that big of a problem, simple bio kills SH. By the time Protoss can afford a tempest army, T would already have mass Ravens which are superior. And you're seriously complaining about mutas? lol. If you want mutas nerfed, nerf marine first.
I'm not sure you understand the real problem you just want to say terran is imba.
SH/Raven are a tandem that suck because each other, wich is why they won't be changed as changing them would create more problems, at least until LotV.
Also the reason Ravens aren't build in TvP isn't skytoss.
And no thors are not a good counter to muta, as Yoshi said you can test this yourself in the unit tester.
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Thors arent a good direct counter to mutas, but a few {1-3) are often still a needed support unit vs them.
Thors help to ensure zerg magic boxes, and marines have a much better time vs boxed mutas than clumped. And if zerg is boxing, they cant clump and target fire/snipe things like mines/turrets/tanks/medvacs.
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Today I just got the chance to watch leenock vs dream in proleague. Pretty solid games of both guys but I think leenock should have been a bit ahead after the earlygame with denying reapers, helions, drops and even killed some add-ons and a relatively large amount of units with 2 baneling landmines.
After some time tho there was just nothing leenock could do against the standard pushes of terran to hold his 4th base without doing any real mistake. He lost it and counter harrass on terran did really nothing to change this.
I believe this game shows the state of ZvT quite well: There is nothing to really transition into in time after muta bling. The composition of bio + mines + thors (or potential tanks) can't really be faced with the zerg standard composition of units at this point of time. Counter attacks can at best get a bit more time but not really harm the terran or force him to build any units that he doesn't want to build. The only thing zerg can hope for is a huge mistake of terran or to get enough time to finally be allowed to transition into lategame himself, against a terran that has reached his lategame status already way earlier, is on same amount of bases, has the same production capabilities with 10+ rax and reaches his 3-3 without any extra efforts like getting an infestation pit and hive before hand.
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On January 20 2015 22:10 LSN wrote:
Today I just got the chance to watch leenock vs dream in proleague. Pretty solid games of both guys but I think leenock should have been a bit ahead after the earlygame with denying reapers, helions, drops and even killed some add-ons and a relatively large amount of units with 2 baneling landmines.
After some time tho there was just nothing leenock could do against the standard pushes of terran to hold his 4th base without doing any real mistake. He lost it and counter harrass on terran did really nothing to change this.
I believe this game shows the state of ZvT quite well: There is nothing to really transition into in time after muta bling. The composition of bio + mines + thors (or potential tanks) can't really be faced with the zerg standard composition of units at this point of time. Counter attacks can only slowly delay the slow death. The only thing zerg can hope for is a huge mistake of terran or to get enough time to finally be allowed to transition into lategame himself, against a terran that has reached his lategame status already way earlier, is on same amount of bases, has the same production capabilities with 10+ rax and reaches his 3-3 without any extra efforts like getting an infestation pit and hive before hand.
Well that or maybe, you know, dream just played better.
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Today I just got the chance to watch leenock vs dream in proleague. Pretty solid games of both guys but I think leenock should have been a bit ahead after the earlygame with denying reapers, helions, drops and even killed some add-ons and a relatively large amount of units with 2 baneling landmines.
Nope, he went two base mutas with banelings and burrow. His mutas did hardly any damage, his burrowed banelings probably only made up for their own costs+burrow (200/150) and probably not even the opportunity costs that all those investments imply.
His reaper defence was good because he went for 6zerglings and fast zergling speed. (more investment than usual)
His hellion defence was good because he went for 3queens, no third base, a spine crawler and some speedlings. (more investment than usual and cutting necessary investments that would have exposed him)
Dream didn't have to do anything special to be in a good spot, because Leenock just went for a build that is economically and upgradewise behind. It was rather lucky that Leenock happened to collide with a banshee opening, denied Dreams first third attempt without even having mutas because his hellions were out of position and getting those banelings off. Otherwise he would have been completely screwed.
But if you actually watched the supplies and workercounts through the game, Leenock was never ahead in either, while his upgrades were later than they should be if he just had played a standard build.
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Two base mutas is smth that you can do after this opening, especially as you mentioned yourself: against banshees and therefore delayed bio. It doesn't matter if it was lucky or not, it was valid. He didnt only pick a few add-ons but cleared several shuttles.
Anyway if this playstyle is that much inferior as you put it and there are so many better alternatives, why does a top 10 zerg like leenock go for it at all?
Maybe because the alternatives end up in the exact same state. That is an inferior army composition of muta ling bane against against bio, mines, thors and hardly any viable transition - neither into 3-3 nor into any other useful unit. And this way you can at least get into active play and don't have to sit back and be passive all game long.
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On January 20 2015 22:29 LSN wrote:
Two base mutas is smth that you can do after this opening, especially as you mentioned yourself: against banshees and therefore delayed bio. It doesn't matter if it was lucky or not, it was valid. He didnt only pick a few add-ons but cleared several shuttles.
You can do whatever you want. Some ways to play are just better than others.
Anyway if this playstyle is that much inferior as you put it and there are so many better alternatives, why does a top 10 zerg like leenock go for it at all?
It's not that much inferior because Terrans do these builds that are weak vs fast mutas. It's a small gamble on the Terran not just playing 3CC double ups which currently works out due to the popularity of fast starport builds. And Leenock just does this build since 2011. Again, it may be valid, but it is not the benchmark for balance because there are builds that are more valid.
Maybe because the alternatives end up in the exact same state. That is an inferior army composition of muta ling bane against against bio, mines, thors and hardly any viable transition - neither into 3-3 nor into any other useful unit. And this way you can at least get into active play and don't have to sit back and be passive all game long.
No they don't. Leenock was always 1-2 upgrade levels behind, because of his opening. Not just the usual 3-3, but he already traded worse than he should in the midgame against 1-1 and 2-2.
And he didn't lose because of lack of transition options, he lost because he missed a drop that killed his spawning pool when both players were maxed. From there on Dream pushed, Leenock traded, Dream rebuilt, Leenock couldn't (still no pool), Dream kept on pushing, Leenock ran out of units and had to give up the 4th base and eventually found himself in a 3base vs 4-5base scenario with a Terran which is just checkmate.
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So blizzard is finally nerfing the raven? Awesome, I've been saying for ages PDD is broken. It took too long, but I'm glad that they finally realized it. Next they really need to tackle the 2-rax issue.
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On January 22 2015 05:13 Dwayn wrote:
So blizzard is finally nerfing the raven? Awesome, I've been saying for ages PDD is broken. It took too long, but I'm glad that they finally realized it. Next they really need to tackle the 2-rax issue.
What do you have in mind?
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PDD has energy, so I would think its duration is much less an issue as the amount of energy it has to block shots.
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EPT
