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Elentos
55550 Posts
And the standard response of making 1 or 2 cyclones also doesn't work because the phoenixes pick them up and interrupt the lock-on. Which then means if you can't get the prism you have to kill everything else. But for example against Sorry, herO just attacked 3 bases at the same time to combat that potential risk. And against TY he just warped in so many adepts TY couldn't fight in his own main. Seems like a really tough combination of units  | ||
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Kenny_mk
50 Posts
Protoss can't really fight back the amount of whine terran can provide | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15956 Posts
On December 17 2015 23:37 Elentos wrote: The most absurd thing I've seen in TvP so far was the combination of adept/warp prism/phoenix. You have to shut down the prism or you always take damage, possibly die. You can't really catch it with marines unless it's stationary and if it's stationary the adepts can take a good fight with your marines. You can't make vikings because of the phoenixes. And the standard response of making 1 or 2 cyclones also doesn't work because the phoenixes pick them up and interrupt the lock-on. Which then means if you can't get the prism you have to kill everything else. But for example against Sorry, herO just attacked 3 bases at the same time to combat that potential risk. And against TY he just warped in so many adepts TY couldn't fight in his own main. Seems like a really tough combination of units On ladder i deal with that by making a lot of turrets. (like 3 per base) It's quite the investment but compared to the damage you can receive if you don't make them it's okay. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 17 2015 23:52 Charoisaur wrote: On ladder i deal with that by making a lot of turrets. (like 3 per base) It's quite the investment but compared to the damage you can receive if you don't make them it's okay. I don't see 3 being enough on most maps, tbh. And turrets when you should be building workers/army/infrastructure is still an investment. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On December 17 2015 10:33 parkufarku wrote: *snip* Explain why liberators don't work? *snip* I already did, in detail, earlier in this thread--which you've been an active member of. Perhaps you skipped over it. Here is a link to the post. I'd be genuinely interested if a Protoss player disagrees with this. Even DinoMight--an ardent advocate of Toss--did not push back on this analysis. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 17 2015 23:27 royalroadweed wrote: Immortal "nerf" has no effect on its ability to break tank lines. You still break tanks line just about the same as you did in hots. It could even be consider a buff because marines are worse vs them. You have no idea what you're talking about. Previously it took only 10 damage from anything > 10 damage on the shields. So when a high damage unit like a Tank, Thor, or Liberator shot it, it would take 10 damage regardless. Now the Immortal has a small period where it can absorb up to 200 damage but then it takes FULL damage. So Immortals are taking 3x - 9x as much damage from Tanks and Liberators. And they actually die. Of course this impacts the unit's ability to break sieges. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1425 Posts
On December 18 2015 02:30 DinoMight wrote: You have no idea what you're talking about. Previously it took only 10 damage from anything > 10 damage on the shields. So when a high damage unit like a Tank, Thor, or Liberator shot it, it would take 10 damage regardless. Now the Immortal has a small period where it can absorb up to 200 damage but then it takes FULL damage. So Immortals are taking 3x - 9x as much damage from Tanks and Liberators. And they actually die. Of course this impacts the More like stealth buff vs ghost mech playstyles. It may take more damage, but it still Takes 6 shots and 4 without breaking shield post emp , far enough to break tank lines because tanks really is pathetic in tvp Thing about adept drops:you basically need double the army as shade can teleports no cost between mineral lines and you need army on both ends to deal with it, meaning you either need to commit 100% to defence or die if you let it warp in without killing warp prism before it warps. You are still going to lower depo wall to move army and adepts by itself are extremely tanky without the shade anyway | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 18 2015 02:36 jinjin5000 wrote: Thing about adept drops:you basically need double the army as shade can teleports no cost between mineral lines and you need army on both ends to deal with it, meaning you either need to commit 100% to defence or die if you let it warp in without killing warp prism before it warps. You are still going to lower depo wall to move army and adepts by itself are extremely tanky without the shade anyway So you're saying Terran needs to defend both where the units are and where they can be in a very short period of time? How is that any different from Medivac drops up and down cliffs vs Protoss? After that PO nerf goes through I think this matchup will be T favored again. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 18 2015 02:42 DinoMight wrote: So you're saying Terran needs to defend both where the units are and where they can be in a very short period of time? How is that any different from Medivac drops up and down cliffs vs Protoss? After that PO nerf goes through I think this matchup will be T favored again. The main issue is that Adepts teleport instantly and medivacs trickle units out. The balance is just a mess currently, Protoss defense is too strong vs T and too weak vs Z. It's terrible design, but tinkering with it at this stage is extremely risky. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1425 Posts
On December 18 2015 02:42 DinoMight wrote: So you're saying Terran needs to defend both where the units are and where they can be in a very short period of time? How is that any different from Medivac drops up and down cliffs vs Protoss? After that PO nerf goes through I think this matchup will be T favored again. Because medivac means commiting certain amount of unit at certain place while shade duplicates the effect by twice since they can be canceled and not commit? Its not like warp prism can warp in too. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On December 18 2015 02:42 DinoMight wrote: So you're saying Terran needs to defend both where the units are and where they can be in a very short period of time? How is that any different from Medivac drops up and down cliffs vs Protoss? After that PO nerf goes through I think this matchup will be T favored again. It's different for very obvious reasons (but you know this, you're just being provocative). But, I will show you, in case some people think you're being serious. Terran has units in position (1). The units must include a Medivac, and the Medivac must be overhead. The units cause DPS in position (1). The Units theoretically threaten multiple positions, because of the Medivac. In order to materialize the threat they have to load into the Medivac. Now, there is 0 DPS happening in position (1) and 0 DPS happening in theoretical position (2). The Medivac costs resources and supply, and can be destroyed (killing units). The Medivac must travel to position (2). Then unloading must happen. Now, position (2) takes DPS from the units, but not full DPS, as the unloading is not instant. So the DPS slowly increases. Regardless of the scenario, Protoss can be 100% certain that: (a) 0 DPS happens until the Medivac unloads, and (b) the Medivac will unload on position (2) if DPS is to happen again. See where this is going? Toss has Adepts in position (1). The units do not require a Warp Prism (WP), but one could be present. The Adepts cause DPS in position (1). The Adept casts Psionic Transfer and now visually threatens Position (2). DPS does not stop while this threat presents itself. There is no "tell" indicating whether or not position (2) will be threatened. It is purely a guess. The transport process is invulnerable to attack, but still grants vision. If Psionic Transfer completes, the DPS can be instantly transferred to Position (2). DPS can be instantly transferred between large distances, instantly, without any visual confirmation, and without any threat of losing the units in transit. All of this without mentioning the obvious differences between a Warp Prism and a Medivac. Without the Warp Prism, the threat areas are limited to the pathing of the so-called shades. So, Dino ... come on. Why even argue this? The best you could do is that the two scenarios are similar. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I do think as SC2 Toastie said that Protoss defense is too strong against Terran but too weak against Zerg. God mode Photon Overcharge can keep Terran units away long enough for us to harass Terran to death, but it can't do anything about the insurmountable economic advantage Zerg has in the matchup or kill Ravagers/Lurkers/Ultras/Muta switches. But I was just trying to reinforce my view that Adept drops and the warp prism are NOT the root cause of the problem. IF PO was not as easy to spam, you could defend the Warp Prism aggression while doing a Widow Mine drop or sending a single Banshee or whatever to the Protoss. His units can't be defending and Harassing at the same time... So yeah I was being provocative. But it was to make a point. The issue is not that Adepts or WP are OP. A Protoss taking 3 bases off 1 gate WHILE being perfectly safe against all harass WHILE also harassing the Terran very effectively is kind of bullshit. This happens so early in the game that I think any talk of anything that happens afterwards is irrelevant. We don't really know how good Liberators or Disruptors are because of the huge economic disparity this interaction causes. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On December 18 2015 03:58 DinoMight wrote: Hehe, you got me. I am being provocative. But with good cause. I do think as SC2 Toastie said that Protoss defense is too strong against Terran but too weak against Zerg. God mode Photon Overcharge can keep Terran units away long enough for us to harass Terran to death, but it can't do anything about the insurmountable economic advantage Zerg has in the matchup or kill Ravagers/Lurkers/Ultras/Muta switches. But I was just trying to reinforce my view that Adept drops and the warp prism are NOT the root cause of the problem. IF PO was not as easy to spam, you could defend the Warp Prism aggression while doing a Widow Mine drop or sending a single Banshee or whatever to the Protoss. His units can't be defending and Harassing at the same time... So yeah I was being provocative. But it was to make a point. The issue is not that Adepts or WP are OP. A Protoss taking 3 bases off 1 gate WHILE being perfectly safe against all harass WHILE also harassing the Terran very effectively is kind of bullshit. This happens so early in the game that I think any talk of anything that happens afterwards is irrelevant. We don't really know how good Liberators or Disruptors are because of the huge economic disparity this interaction causes. Fine. I will grant you that the mid and late game should look different if you can fix the interactions in the early game. But now I want you to imagine how impossible the matchup is in Archon Mode, where the macro and micro are near perfect at all times. It's mind-numbingly difficult right now. While I think Archon Mode is a better game, in many ways, it's unfortunate that I believe it could require separate balancing. But we'll see. Code S is really going to show us the state of the game (not to say the enjoyment of the recreational class is not extremely important, because it is). | ||
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nubHunter
Spain44 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 18 2015 03:58 DinoMight wrote: This happens so early in the game that I think any talk of anything that happens afterwards is irrelevant. We don't really know how good Liberators or Disruptors are because of the huge economic disparity this interaction causes. Absolutely true. Don't think that no one noticed you, as well as many others, saying just this during the beta. Strong Adepts and strong PO warp the game. When they get rebalanced, the entire MU's balance will start from scratch. If only Blizzard had listened back during the beta, this could have been nipped in the bud. Now there's no fix that won't have far-reaching consequences, but leaving the game in any state remotely resembling this one is absolutely unacceptable. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 18 2015 09:07 pure.Wasted wrote: Absolutely true. Don't think that no one noticed you, as well as many others, saying just this during the beta. Strong Adepts and strong PO warp the game. When they get rebalanced, the entire MU's balance will start from scratch. If only Blizzard had listened back during the beta, this could have been nipped in the bud. Now there's no fix that won't have far-reaching consequences, but leaving the game in any state remotely resembling this one is absolutely unacceptable. Dude I wrote a blog about this ages ago.. Here it is! http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/495821-as-a-protoss-nerf-the-adept October 1: Even if the all-in does not flat out kill Terrans, Warp/prism Typo, I clearly meant to say adepts in that sentence. At this point it feels like beating a dead horse. The only reasonable thing to do is to let them nerf PO, watch TvP balance out and possibly become T favored, and watch Protoss never beat Zerg ever again. EDIT - how is TvZ? It's hard to tell because of the disparity in skill between the players right now (early stages and no big tourneys). But from what I've seen is that if the game is reasonably close and Ultras come out the Terran player just rolls over and dies. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On December 18 2015 23:56 DinoMight wrote: Dude I wrote a blog about this ages ago.. Here it is! http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/495821-as-a-protoss-nerf-the-adept October 1: Typo, I clearly meant to say adepts in that sentence. At this point it feels like beating a dead horse. The only reasonable thing to do is to let them nerf PO, watch TvP balance out and possibly become T favored, and watch Protoss never beat Zerg ever again. Nerf PO (I'm just worried that they extend the duration too much) and the Adept (but buff resonating glaves a little bit to compensate). This will even out the early game some, and this might help the Liberator/Disruptor dynamic. But, I still say they need to move Liberator Range to the Fusion Core. Requiring the fusion core, tech lab, and the research is overkill, imho. I'll ask again: does anyone disagree with this? History: The primary reason they moved it was because of QQ'ing in the beta that super-early Liberator rush-harass was difficult for Zerg to deal with if they only opened Queens (lol, yeah, I know). So, instead of the minor nerf that was needed, they buried the essential functionality of the Liberator in ultra late-game tech. *smh* It should be noted that some Protoss players also QQ'd that they couldn't defend a Starport rush without a Stargate, but it was mainly Zerg tears, iirc, and Toss players really didn't have ground to QQ because of the extremely OP Adept/Warp Prism play in the beta. But this all comes with the assumption that something--or several things--needs to happen with Zerg. They are maxing way too fast, imo. Unit quality is too high at all stages of the game thanks to queen, roach/ravager, lurker, infestor, ultra, viper, broodlord. I don't know what the answer is. Essentially, I think we're all waiting for Code S to really see. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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cop354g
61 Posts
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