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On November 03 2014 00:36 Samx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 00:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote:On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote:On November 02 2014 23:50 sibs wrote:Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners! Great games though. Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. On November 02 2014 23:52 Samx wrote:
Yeah. Game is balanced.
SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet.
Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there.
G3 Taeja took one major engagement that turned the tide but the only reason he was able to do that was by consistently trading cost efficiently with great micro against Soo, and nullifying his flanks by great army positioning. This wore down Soo's bank so once it was gone, Taeja just needed to win one more engagement. And had he lost any, he could have easily lost the game. It wasn't just one battle.
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On November 03 2014 01:04 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 00:43 Doublemint wrote:
rofl really?... 32boys1cup as an example? 1 of the two capable Terrans did not show up (Major) and the other one was Gumiho. Against a shitton of other great Koreans from the other races. There were qualifiers. Show nested quote +Leifeng monthly Final Maru won on the 21st of October 2014... Or as Terrans call it - Rocktober. (  ) Ups you're right, I should do like sibs and hide under the carpet all the events where Terran won or did fine. There's also more to the tournament than the sole winner but whatever. I can't wait to read stuff about how Terran is 83% better than Zerg because so far Terran won 11 Premier to 6 for Zerg this year... Show nested quote +//edit: and rofl at "let's ignore WCS, the highest level of play. "whatever fits the agenda" - amiright? I don't ignore it. And sorry to break your bubble but those Korean qualifiers/events are often far more stacked than the WCS AM/EU pre-RO16/RO8. For WCS Europe, for instance, I have yet to hear the simple fact that Zerg had low/abysmal chances to win that region to begin with since there was no Korean Zerg there for 4/6 seasons, and the only one who qualified for the last 2 seasons (Golden) obviously couldn't stand alone against the stronger Korean Terran/Protoss line-up.
Seriously the guy who complained about the top50 stat assembled by AntiRW linked:
1.http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Against_The_Odds
Foreign tournament, zero top terrans.
2.http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_MSI_Beat_IT
Flash, Rogue, Parting and a bunch of foreigners. (Parting won)
3. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/32_Boys_1_Cup
Had one Terran who is pretty fucking good right now Gumiho, Terran participation was definitely the weakest among the 3 races.
4. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/OlimoLeague/2014/October
protoss participation was weakest, True won. Hard to call any of the terran's really top terrans, but they're pretty good.
5.http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Leifeng_Cup/Monthly/1
Great players here, TvT final though, protoss participation was the weakest.
And I'm cherry picking by only looking at premier, code s players, or top50 aligulac players? plz.
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Is this people calling the MSI Beat It Champion PartinG some kind of elaborate troll?
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your Country52797 Posts
On November 03 2014 01:51 Doublemint wrote:
Is this people calling the MSI Beat It Champion PartinG some kind of elaborate troll?
No, he definitely won. 3-1 even
+ Show Spoiler +I think people were calling it a bit soon ^^
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o sorry my bad, Solar won 4-3.
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On November 03 2014 01:51 Doublemint wrote:
Is this people calling the MSI Beat It Champion PartinG some kind of elaborate troll?
God damn it, I missed it. With all that DotA streaming all afternoon I forgot to check whether and when this actually takes place.
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On November 03 2014 00:36 Samx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 00:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote:On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote:On November 02 2014 23:50 sibs wrote:Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners! Great games though. Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. On November 02 2014 23:52 Samx wrote:
Yeah. Game is balanced.
SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet.
Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there.
I think the problem for soO was to maintain his macro and creep spread in the late game. When the number of base increases and engagements occur everywhere, even the best zerg players cannot maintain the macro as they are doing in early and midgame when the battlefield is less complex. On the contrary, it seems that once the terran has its economy going it's not that much harder to maintain it in the late game while at the same time controlling the army.
I might be wrong but it looked like soO had almost no queen in those matches in the late game.
That would be why the zergs crumble in the late game more often than the terrans.
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oh damn, i knew this was going to happen
did taeja won cuz maybe he played better, was better focused, had more stamina/mental strenght or prepared better ?
off course not, that doesnt count in sc at all
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On November 03 2014 01:23 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 00:36 Samx wrote:On November 03 2014 00:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote:On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote:On November 02 2014 23:50 sibs wrote:Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners! Great games though. Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. On November 02 2014 23:52 Samx wrote:
Yeah. Game is balanced.
SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet.
Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there. G3 Taeja took one major engagement that turned the tide but the only reason he was able to do that was by consistently trading cost efficiently with great micro against Soo, and nullifying his flanks by great army positioning. This wore down Soo's bank so once it was gone, Taeja just needed to win one more engagement. And had he lost any, he could have easily lost the game. It wasn't just one battle.
Cost efficiency becomes a very mood term in current TvZ games. Zergs go for 85drones/4base vs 65SCV+3OCs, hence are mining more than the Terran. (the 3OCs when constantly dropping mules make for ~2workers, but most of the time the Terran uses lots of scans, in particular when playing like Taeja).
The game was pretty even (supplywise soO even took the better trades) until soO took that one bad engagment, which then allowed Taeja to completely cripple soO's creep spread, kill 2bases and establish a 6th base. soO was way behind from there, you can't allow a Terran to get that many bases up and running. There's just not a good way to ever kill PFs without dying to the counter these days with mutaclouds belonging to the past. A 5th is usually a game-ending already.
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I think there is alot of potential for terrans to do better still. Only few players can make use of and combine all the improvements yet that terran got in the recent past.
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On November 02 2014 22:43 Dwayn wrote:
ZvT and PvT definitely need fixing. They should start of with fixing the 2-rax, it has a ridiculous winrate.
Yeah. Even T players are having a hard time denying TvZ is ridiculously broken in favor of T. PvT is also skewed in favor of T, but it's not at a terrible state like TvZ is in, but PvT will eventually have to be fixed later down the road too.
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I don't normally make posts, but sibs, I think you need to take a long, hard look at the way you are discounting the tournaments TheDwf linked.
On November 03 2014 01:36 sibs wrote:
1.http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Against_The_Odds
Foreign tournament, zero top terrans.
So you're arguing that Dayshi, one of the better foreign terrans, and Reality, a Season 3 GSL Code S player, are not good Terrans?
2.http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_MSI_Beat_IT
Flash, Rogue, Parting and a bunch of foreigners. (Parting won)
Funny how you discount YoDa who made it to the WCS EU finals you've been touting as an example of Terran imbalance.
5.http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Leifeng_Cup/Monthly/1
Great players here, TvT final though, protoss participation was the weakest.
A five-second glance on this liquipedia page showed the finals was actually a TvZ between Maru and Solar, and not a TvT. So I have to ask: Are you even looking these tournaments, or are you just grasping at anything you see that might suggest Terran is performing too well?
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On November 03 2014 02:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 01:23 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On November 03 2014 00:36 Samx wrote:On November 03 2014 00:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote:On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote:On November 02 2014 23:50 sibs wrote:Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners! Great games though. Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. On November 02 2014 23:52 Samx wrote:
Yeah. Game is balanced.
SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet.
Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there. G3 Taeja took one major engagement that turned the tide but the only reason he was able to do that was by consistently trading cost efficiently with great micro against Soo, and nullifying his flanks by great army positioning. This wore down Soo's bank so once it was gone, Taeja just needed to win one more engagement. And had he lost any, he could have easily lost the game. It wasn't just one battle. Cost efficiency becomes a very mood term in current TvZ games. Zergs go for 85drones/4base vs 65SCV+3OCs, hence are mining more than the Terran. (the 3OCs when constantly dropping mules make for ~2workers, but most of the time the Terran uses lots of scans, in particular when playing like Taeja). The game was pretty even (supplywise soO even took the better trades) until soO took that one bad engagment, which then allowed Taeja to completely cripple soO's creep spread, kill 2bases and establish a 6th base. soO was way behind from there, you can't allow a Terran to get that many bases up and running. There's just not a good way to ever kill PFs without dying to the counter these days with mutaclouds belonging to the past. A 5th is usually a game-ending already.
Speaking of killing PFs, it might have been important in the game for Taeja to have upgraded building armor. Might be the one OP thing in the matchup. Nerf building armor!
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On November 03 2014 04:07 10bulgares wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 02:39 Big J wrote:On November 03 2014 01:23 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On November 03 2014 00:36 Samx wrote:On November 03 2014 00:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote:On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote:On November 02 2014 23:50 sibs wrote:Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners! Great games though. Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. On November 02 2014 23:52 Samx wrote:
Yeah. Game is balanced.
SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet.
Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there. G3 Taeja took one major engagement that turned the tide but the only reason he was able to do that was by consistently trading cost efficiently with great micro against Soo, and nullifying his flanks by great army positioning. This wore down Soo's bank so once it was gone, Taeja just needed to win one more engagement. And had he lost any, he could have easily lost the game. It wasn't just one battle. Cost efficiency becomes a very mood term in current TvZ games. Zergs go for 85drones/4base vs 65SCV+3OCs, hence are mining more than the Terran. (the 3OCs when constantly dropping mules make for ~2workers, but most of the time the Terran uses lots of scans, in particular when playing like Taeja). The game was pretty even (supplywise soO even took the better trades) until soO took that one bad engagment, which then allowed Taeja to completely cripple soO's creep spread, kill 2bases and establish a 6th base. soO was way behind from there, you can't allow a Terran to get that many bases up and running. There's just not a good way to ever kill PFs without dying to the counter these days with mutaclouds belonging to the past. A 5th is usually a game-ending already. Speaking of killing PFs, it might have been important in the game for Taeja to have upgraded building armor. Might be the one OP thing in the matchup. Nerf building armor!
I've been playing a lot of ZvT lately and I definitely agree with this, if you let Terran constantly push and expand you get pretty fucked. If you either get yourself breathing room to tech to a hive heavy army or constantly counter and prevent Terran from expanding a bunch you're okay.
But honestly I feel like soO was just too impatient. He had basically no chance of winning that engagement and I have no idea why he went for it. A super ling heavy army with few banelings and some ultras. Taeja didn't even need to split. I guess he was hoping for some crazy traitor mine shots?
edit: also stand by what I said before, TvZ looks T favored, TvP looks fine. We had MMA beat Stardust (unsurprising), Classic beat Polt (I would have favored Polt), and San 3-0 Jjakji (really surprising to me). And we've had top T's and P's trading wins pretty evenly post patch, the only place it looked T favored was WCS EU.
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On November 03 2014 04:12 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 04:07 10bulgares wrote:On November 03 2014 02:39 Big J wrote:On November 03 2014 01:23 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On November 03 2014 00:36 Samx wrote:On November 03 2014 00:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote:On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote:On November 02 2014 23:50 sibs wrote:Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners! Great games though. Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. On November 02 2014 23:52 Samx wrote:
Yeah. Game is balanced.
SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet.
Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there. G3 Taeja took one major engagement that turned the tide but the only reason he was able to do that was by consistently trading cost efficiently with great micro against Soo, and nullifying his flanks by great army positioning. This wore down Soo's bank so once it was gone, Taeja just needed to win one more engagement. And had he lost any, he could have easily lost the game. It wasn't just one battle. Cost efficiency becomes a very mood term in current TvZ games. Zergs go for 85drones/4base vs 65SCV+3OCs, hence are mining more than the Terran. (the 3OCs when constantly dropping mules make for ~2workers, but most of the time the Terran uses lots of scans, in particular when playing like Taeja). The game was pretty even (supplywise soO even took the better trades) until soO took that one bad engagment, which then allowed Taeja to completely cripple soO's creep spread, kill 2bases and establish a 6th base. soO was way behind from there, you can't allow a Terran to get that many bases up and running. There's just not a good way to ever kill PFs without dying to the counter these days with mutaclouds belonging to the past. A 5th is usually a game-ending already. Speaking of killing PFs, it might have been important in the game for Taeja to have upgraded building armor. Might be the one OP thing in the matchup. Nerf building armor! I've been playing a lot of ZvT lately and I definitely agree with this, if you let Terran constantly push and expand you get pretty fucked. If you either get yourself breathing room to tech to a hive heavy army or constantly counter and prevent Terran from expanding a bunch you're okay. But honestly I feel like soO was just too impatient. He had basically no chance of winning that engagement and I have no idea why he went for it. A super ling heavy army with few banelings and some ultras. Taeja didn't even need to split. I guess he was hoping for some crazy traitor mine shots? edit: also stand by what I said before, TvZ looks T favored, TvP looks fine. We had MMA beat Stardust (unsurprising), Classic beat Polt (I would have favored Polt), and San 3-0 Jjakji (really surprising to me). And we've had top T's and P's trading wins pretty evenly post patch, the only place it looked T favored was WCS EU.
By the time soO had this ling heavy army, he was struggling gaswise. Question is why had he not more extractors and drones to exploit them. My hypothesis is that he struggled also with the larvae.
It is possible that even if soO hadn't attacked at this moment, it would have been Taeja who would have and ftw.
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On November 03 2014 04:26 10bulgares wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 04:12 Pursuit_ wrote:On November 03 2014 04:07 10bulgares wrote:On November 03 2014 02:39 Big J wrote:On November 03 2014 01:23 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On November 03 2014 00:36 Samx wrote:On November 03 2014 00:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote:On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote:On November 02 2014 23:50 sibs wrote:
[quote]
Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners!
Great games though. Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. On November 02 2014 23:52 Samx wrote:
Yeah. Game is balanced.
SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet.
Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there. G3 Taeja took one major engagement that turned the tide but the only reason he was able to do that was by consistently trading cost efficiently with great micro against Soo, and nullifying his flanks by great army positioning. This wore down Soo's bank so once it was gone, Taeja just needed to win one more engagement. And had he lost any, he could have easily lost the game. It wasn't just one battle. Cost efficiency becomes a very mood term in current TvZ games. Zergs go for 85drones/4base vs 65SCV+3OCs, hence are mining more than the Terran. (the 3OCs when constantly dropping mules make for ~2workers, but most of the time the Terran uses lots of scans, in particular when playing like Taeja). The game was pretty even (supplywise soO even took the better trades) until soO took that one bad engagment, which then allowed Taeja to completely cripple soO's creep spread, kill 2bases and establish a 6th base. soO was way behind from there, you can't allow a Terran to get that many bases up and running. There's just not a good way to ever kill PFs without dying to the counter these days with mutaclouds belonging to the past. A 5th is usually a game-ending already. Speaking of killing PFs, it might have been important in the game for Taeja to have upgraded building armor. Might be the one OP thing in the matchup. Nerf building armor! I've been playing a lot of ZvT lately and I definitely agree with this, if you let Terran constantly push and expand you get pretty fucked. If you either get yourself breathing room to tech to a hive heavy army or constantly counter and prevent Terran from expanding a bunch you're okay. But honestly I feel like soO was just too impatient. He had basically no chance of winning that engagement and I have no idea why he went for it. A super ling heavy army with few banelings and some ultras. Taeja didn't even need to split. I guess he was hoping for some crazy traitor mine shots? edit: also stand by what I said before, TvZ looks T favored, TvP looks fine. We had MMA beat Stardust (unsurprising), Classic beat Polt (I would have favored Polt), and San 3-0 Jjakji (really surprising to me). And we've had top T's and P's trading wins pretty evenly post patch, the only place it looked T favored was WCS EU. By the time soO had this ling heavy army, he was struggling gaswise. Question is why had he not more extractors and drones to exploit them. My hypothesis is that he struggled also with the larvae. It is possible that even if soO hadn't attacked at this moment, it would have been Taeja who would have and ftw.
Hm, what I'm talking about is the engagment at around 30:40 in the VoD in which he wasn't that ling heavy. (my mistake, Taeja only took out one base during that. The other one was taken out by a drop during the previous engagement)
From there on it was all downhill, because soO had to rebuild all his gas units but didn't have the time/larva for banelings and remaxed on ultras instead (which is just worse (and also cheaper) than relying mainly on banelings), while Taeja had gotten a big economical lead.
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On November 03 2014 04:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 04:26 10bulgares wrote:On November 03 2014 04:12 Pursuit_ wrote:On November 03 2014 04:07 10bulgares wrote:On November 03 2014 02:39 Big J wrote:On November 03 2014 01:23 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On November 03 2014 00:36 Samx wrote:On November 03 2014 00:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote:On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic.
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Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there. G3 Taeja took one major engagement that turned the tide but the only reason he was able to do that was by consistently trading cost efficiently with great micro against Soo, and nullifying his flanks by great army positioning. This wore down Soo's bank so once it was gone, Taeja just needed to win one more engagement. And had he lost any, he could have easily lost the game. It wasn't just one battle. Cost efficiency becomes a very mood term in current TvZ games. Zergs go for 85drones/4base vs 65SCV+3OCs, hence are mining more than the Terran. (the 3OCs when constantly dropping mules make for ~2workers, but most of the time the Terran uses lots of scans, in particular when playing like Taeja). The game was pretty even (supplywise soO even took the better trades) until soO took that one bad engagment, which then allowed Taeja to completely cripple soO's creep spread, kill 2bases and establish a 6th base. soO was way behind from there, you can't allow a Terran to get that many bases up and running. There's just not a good way to ever kill PFs without dying to the counter these days with mutaclouds belonging to the past. A 5th is usually a game-ending already. Speaking of killing PFs, it might have been important in the game for Taeja to have upgraded building armor. Might be the one OP thing in the matchup. Nerf building armor! I've been playing a lot of ZvT lately and I definitely agree with this, if you let Terran constantly push and expand you get pretty fucked. If you either get yourself breathing room to tech to a hive heavy army or constantly counter and prevent Terran from expanding a bunch you're okay. But honestly I feel like soO was just too impatient. He had basically no chance of winning that engagement and I have no idea why he went for it. A super ling heavy army with few banelings and some ultras. Taeja didn't even need to split. I guess he was hoping for some crazy traitor mine shots? edit: also stand by what I said before, TvZ looks T favored, TvP looks fine. We had MMA beat Stardust (unsurprising), Classic beat Polt (I would have favored Polt), and San 3-0 Jjakji (really surprising to me). And we've had top T's and P's trading wins pretty evenly post patch, the only place it looked T favored was WCS EU. By the time soO had this ling heavy army, he was struggling gaswise. Question is why had he not more extractors and drones to exploit them. My hypothesis is that he struggled also with the larvae. It is possible that even if soO hadn't attacked at this moment, it would have been Taeja who would have and ftw. Hm, what I'm talking about is the engagment at around 30:40 in the VoD in which he wasn't that ling heavy. (my mistake, Taeja only took out one base during that. The other one was taken out by a drop during the previous engagement) From there on it was all downhill, because soO had to rebuild all his gas units but didn't have the time/larva for banelings and remaxed on ultras instead (which is just worse (and also cheaper) than relying mainly on banelings), while Taeja had gotten a big economical lead.
Attacking from one angle off creep without even trying to denote widow mines first and having your whole army clumped up can definitely give you some bad engagements. But soO was definitely still in the game at that point, he had a pretty strong economy still and a bigger bank, just didn't take his gas in the northern bases so he was gas starved. Even his bank at 6k / 2k was too mineral heavy. Remaxing on ultras was a mistake, but even then it was his horrible use of them (a move into kiting bio off creep from one angle with nothing to lock them in place) that put him behind. Even just sending 3 to the north first to pick off planetary's would have been better.
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On November 03 2014 02:34 miky_ardiente wrote:
oh damn, i knew this was going to happen
did taeja won cuz maybe he played better, was better focused, had more stamina/mental strenght or prepared better ?
off course not, that doesnt count in sc at all
terrans are just the better players
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So now it's become a discussion on one single match? People who can't play nearly as good as soO and Taeja, drawing conclusions and analyzing what the very best of the pros should have and could have done better. Seriously!?!?!
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EPT
