EPTDon't pretend Jaedong/Hyun had a chance against Bomber/Innovation. Before today most people were angry that Jaedong even got a seed, and people have been complaining about Hyun farming points for months now.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1182
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691175002
122 Posts
Don't pretend Jaedong/Hyun had a chance against Bomber/Innovation. Before today most people were angry that Jaedong even got a seed, and people have been complaining about Hyun farming points for months now. | ||
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
On November 02 2014 23:57 TheDwf wrote: Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote: Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. What game are you discussing? | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On November 03 2014 00:12 691175002 wrote: the level of play there transcended balance. im not saying widow mines imba or taeja beating soo = imba but i hate when people say this. how can a level of play transcend balance? if a unit or strat is strong then it's strong. like if you added 10 HP to marines then would the level of play still transcend balance?* even the top players are still using the same tools we are using, those tools are either strong or not strong *before someone makes a smartass comment obviously im not talking about combat shields :p | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. Thanks bud! We've been through this before, Terran wins 60%+ of tournaments, has 60%+ winrate vs Zerg among top players, you say it's peak performance fter patch, I say it's terran imba, we'll who is right... eventually right!? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 02 2014 23:37 TheDwf wrote: His game plan in the Nimbus game was terrible, he would have won easily had he teched broods after ultras/infests instead of wasting armies again and again offcreep for no valid reason. What TaeJa does—passively building a huge 4M/Thors army—is actually very dangerous since it allows the Zerg to bank at his heart's content and build an unbeatable Hive army. soO could have even made Swarm hosts given that TaeJa took the proxy fourth… At any rate he started his Hive quite early but never morphed a Greater Spire despite having the opportunity (resources/time) to do so at numerous times in the game. TaeJa was probably dumbfounded when he scanned the Spire at 30' on soO's natural. Even he was expecting broods at this time… His gameplan was allright, the map's just bad for Zerg's standard play. I guess Snute's SH style can work in the lategame, though noone else has ever shown any consistency with it and I wouldn't say that Snute's ZvT has improved since he adapated the style, rather the opposite. Talking Broodlords in that situation is just hardcore theorycraft with nothing to back it up and more specifically, soO's windows to switch into them were nearly none-existant (maybe around 26mins he could have done a small one) because at any reasonable Broodlord-timing, i.e. before Taeja had his extra Starports up, the two players were maxed - hence he can't make any reasonable amount of units - and soO only had ~2k gas in the bank which is not really going to be a hot BL-switch to begin with. And yeah, given the map he couldn't trade efficiently to make room for Broodlords. Unbeatable Hive army? Please... | ||
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691175002
122 Posts
On November 03 2014 00:13 Samx wrote: Right. And Taeja did play flawlessly. SoO played absolutely amazing. His macro was impeccable. At times he setup not 1 but 2 flanks to converge time and time again to win engagement after engagement. His drop defence was superb. But it didn't matter, because all it took was one bad engagement where he didn't set off the widow mines, lose his banelings and the Taeja push to kill a base for soo to lose. The first and last game of that series had very clear mistakes from soO. In the two purely macro games, soO was able to get into the late game completely unhindered, with 8k+ banks and maxed upgrades. One of those games he won, and the other he was one or two fungals away from winning, but misaligned pathogen glands. I realize that it is easy to pick out mistakes from the loser, but If you are going to call balance in this series you are essentially saying that Terran is OP in the late game. That is a fairly questionable conclusion considering before today 99% of people considered the lategame Z favoured. As well, we only saw ultralisks from soO when other options do exist. Saying that the matchup is particularly unforgiving in ZvT is just silly. Zerg can instant remax meaning that losing a fight only costs bank whereas Terran is short units for the next three minutes. All matchups are unforgiving in their own way, and ZvT isn't special there. | ||
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ETisME
12624 Posts
Late game ZvT is insanely difficult to win if the terran has repair pf and units supporting. Zerg on the other hand, one poor engagement and loses momentum and most often loses a base to drops or counter push just because no banelings ready yet and T3 takes a lot of time to get out (something that people don't often consider when they only look at the supply and claim zerg can just remax) And right now with bigger maps and turbo medivac, broodlord which was the best answer to turtling defensive terran is often just not ideal, it's not surprising to see zerg keep "overextending" and loses. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 03 2014 00:17 sibs wrote: Thanks bud! We've been through this before, Terran wins 60%+ of tournaments http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Against_The_Odds http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_MSI_Beat_IT http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/32_Boys_1_Cup http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/OlimoLeague/2014/October http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Leifeng_Cup/Monthly/1 Terrans, Terrans galore! Better ignore a large part of the scene and focus exclusively on Premier or WCS—whichever fits better your agenda. has 60%+ winrate vs Zerg among top players, After manipulating data and ignoring the Korean qualifiers for MSI Beat It (49-46), IEM San Jose (30-31) or HSC X (17-21) with dead even TvZ for your o so precious winrates! you say it's peak performance fter patch, I say it's terran imba, we'll who is right... eventually right!? We'll see that in 2015. But it's good to know you have already foreseen the slow movement of the game in the next few months, on top of incorporating the effects of the yet-to-be-announced map pool of the first 2015 WCS season; you're a true visionary indeed.  | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
Game 1 and 3 in general. Yes. Game 1 SoO was behind after proxy 11/11. But he clawed his way back despite being behind in upgrade by winning fights after fights and was ahead. An ill fated attempt to end the game by attacking lost him the game. Game 2. He got into the mid game slightly ahead. Built on his lead but realize he cannot fight the terran army even when he had a huge supply lead. He starved Taeja on 3 base to win. Game 3. He got into mid game even more ahead than game 2. Earlier mutas similar upgrades. Much much faster ultra and infestors. He built up an insane bank. But one bad engagement with widow mine and infestors not fungalling. It started to go downhill from there. | ||
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12376 Posts
On November 03 2014 00:37 inken wrote: WCS and IEM since 2013: 29 big finals, zerg won 4 of them. But this doesn't say anything about top level balance: very small sample size. You can't just say that, you didn't lose all of these finals because of the same exact problems, so sample size doesn't matter in that case. That being said it's pretty obvious that zerg is doing the worst at this exact time whatever the reason for that is, and I don't see why that's such a shameful thing to say for some people... | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8670 Posts
On November 03 2014 00:32 TheDwf wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Against_The_Odds http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_MSI_Beat_IT http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/32_Boys_1_Cup http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/OlimoLeague/2014/October http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Leifeng_Cup/Monthly/1 Terrans, Terrans galore! Better ignore a large part of the scene and focus exclusively on Premier or WCS—whichever fits better your agenda. After manipulating data and ignoring the Korean qualifiers for MSI Beat It (49-46), IEM San Jose (30-31) or HSC X (17-21) with dead even TvZ for your o so precious winrates! We'll see that in 2015. But it's good to know you have already foreseen the slow movement of the game in the next few months, on top of incorporating the effects of the yet-to-be-announced map pool of the first 2015 WCS season; you're a true visionary indeed. rofl really?... 32boys1cup as an example? 1 of the two capable Terrans did not show up (Major) and the other one was Gumiho. Against a shitton of other great Koreans from the other races. Leifeng monthly Final Maru won on the 21st of October 2014... Or as Terrans call it - Rocktober. (  )Changes are necessary and most probably on the way, starting with a less T friendly mappool. Then we can wait and see if things stabilize. //edit: and rofl at "let's ignore WCS, the highest level of play. "whatever fits the agenda" - amiright? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
It's all about the macro, the baneling numbers etc. Sure, you can set up flanks and trigger widow mines as well as possible, but in the end the engagement (if it is a "50:50" one) is kinda decided by how well the terran splits. It just hurts my zerg heart (even when i play both terran and zerg, but zerg is MY race^^) to see banelings almost do nothing as soon as you are a little bit behind in macro. Obviously that might be biased and not true 100%, but it just feels that way. | ||
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
On November 03 2014 00:41 Nebuchad wrote: That being said it's pretty obvious that zerg is doing the worst at this exact time whatever the reason for that is, and I don't see why that's such a shameful thing to say for some people... I'm also wondering about that. In WoL there were times when terrans got wrecked left and right, but even as a massive zerg fan boy I didn't say "proof it with statistics" or "zerg are more skilled" just to feel better about zerg celebrating their bl/infestor parade. It was obvious, and when terrans won stuff - against the odds - I was like "whooo now look at THAT killer nerd". Today there's just "alliguac this, alligulac that". | ||
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Deimos
Mexico134 Posts
Terrans win 11 Protoss win 14 (with parting winning yesterday Msi Beat it) Zerg wins 6 Thats looks pretty balanced too me | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 03 2014 00:43 Doublemint wrote: rofl really?... 32boys1cup as an example? 1 of the two capable Terrans did not show up (Major) and the other one was Gumiho. Against a shitton of other great Koreans from the other races. There were qualifiers. Leifeng monthly Final Maru won on the 21st of October 2014... Or as Terrans call it - Rocktober. ( )Ups you're right, I should do like sibs and hide under the carpet all the events where Terran won or did fine. There's also more to the tournament than the sole winner but whatever. I can't wait to read stuff about how Terran is 83% better than Zerg because so far Terran won 11 Premier to 6 for Zerg this year... //edit: and rofl at "let's ignore WCS, the highest level of play. "whatever fits the agenda" - amiright? I don't ignore it. And sorry to break your bubble but those Korean qualifiers/events are often far more stacked than the WCS AM/EU pre-RO16/RO8. For WCS Europe, for instance, I have yet to hear the simple fact that Zerg had low/abysmal chances to win that region to begin with since there was no Korean Zerg there for 4/6 seasons, and the only one who qualified for the last 2 seasons (Golden) obviously couldn't stand alone against the stronger Korean Terran/Protoss line-up. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8670 Posts
On November 03 2014 01:04 TheDwf wrote: There were qualifiers. Ups you're right, I should do like sibs and hide under the carpet all the events where Terran won or did fine. There's also more to the tournament than the sole winner but whatever. I can't wait to read stuff about how Terran is 83% better than Zerg because so far Terran won 11 Premier to 6 for Zerg this year... I don't ignore it. And sorry to break your bubble but those Korean qualifiers/events are often far more stacked than the WCS AM/EU pre-RO16/RO8. For WCS Europe, for instance, I have yet to hear the simple fact that Zerg had low/abysmal chances to win that region to begin with since there was no Korean Zerg there for 4/6 seasons, and the only one who qualified for the last 2 seasons (Golden) obviously couldn't stand alone against the stronger Korean Terran/Protoss line-up. I am not a Zerg advocate, if anything I am biased towards P. Though I think once a race starts to do extraordinarly well people who are biased towards one race or the other lose perspective. Of course that includes myself. I can understand how you want to bounce back against that frustrated Z's comment, well a lot of those comments in fact, but as someone as high regarded in terms of balance ( for someone who wrote an article called ZParcraft that is indeed remarkable :D) you are heavily biased yourself... just sayin'. The last straw for me would be if T wins Blizzcon as well. Winning 3 WCS seasons AND Blizzcon would indeed be unprecedented and a bit too much of a cinderella story. //edit: qualifiers are heavily dependent on form of the day. with a region so stacked as KR ANYTHING can happen, tournament situations are very different from that. usually players have a lot of time to prepare for them and/or specific enemies. | ||
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