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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 31 2014 00:06 Foxxan wrote: Valkyrie from broodwar is an interesting unit? It has the positioning atleast. Valk/corsair/devourer punished clumping Goliath/scourge/scouts punished spreading | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Poll: Do you want Aligulac lists posted here with a bit of analysis? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On October 30 2014 23:50 Big J wrote: Air battles are boring because of air stacking. Air in Starcraft is only really interesting in the context of ground vs air units. With air stacking there is no positioning, flanking or other formations. There is only clumping up as much as possible so that everything can attack and in case of splash, spreading out. There is no difficulty to get units into the battle or out of the battle. Every target is always reachable or unreachable by unit design, but never situation dependent. In air vs air it is always just a numbers game until splash - which is nearly always a ground thing - comes into play. Then it is engage spread or don't engage at all. I don't know if this is a good idea, but wouldn't it be nice if there was terrain that made air vs air battles a bit more interesting? The reason air vs ground is fun is because one side gets to abuse the terrain. Though it's compounded by air units being typically sluggish and boring. I thought effective ideas along these lines should be based on already ubiquitous map features in order to mimic air vs ground interaction. The only thing Blizzard needs to do is to add interaction between flyers and some types of terrain. An example: cliffs so high that flying units can't pass them. They could also prevent fire / force line of sight so that you could do certain types of hit and run micro. I thought this could easily be put into the game without seeming too gimmicky. More (fanciful) examples would be gravity fields, hostile turrets on islands in dead air space, more flyer pathing blockers. Basically they all serve as ways to create other obstacles than map borders for flyers. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
More things: Special autoattacks Dodging projectiles->Would be cool if it was a reactionary dodge mechanic Able to shoot enemy projectiles/missiles(their damage missiles) Lots of things to do with the movement in air: Look one way all the time->Use move command and still look and shoot that way->shoot the air unit from behind and you will not get damaged back unless the enemy unit turns around 360. Some examples. So much things to make. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
I think all long range dedicated air-to-air units are the worst designed units in the game. Vikings and Corruptors especially fall into this, Void Rays do as well despite being able to hit ground, Pheonix and Tempest are slightly more interesting but accomplish basically the same thing. They're uninteresting because they eliminate / negate interactions between Air and Ground units, which is a large part of what makes air units fun to begin with. Watch Banshee vs Marine compared to Banshee vs Viking as an example, or Muta vs Thor compared to Muta vs Viking, or Muta vs Blink Stalker compared to Muta vs Pheonix. Numbers such as damage, health, movement speed ect can always be adjusted for balance, but in terms of design ground countering air is always more interesting to watch than air countering air. Collosi are horrible design only because they force opponent to get dedicated long range air-to-air units. Very few other options (ovewhelming air-to-ground, 2-3x your opponent's army size, in HotS vipers) exist. If Air-to-Ground is ever stronger than equivalent supply and/or cost Ground-to-Air, that air is overpowered** and makes for uninteresting gameplay because it has the inherent advantage of being air. They can stack into one spot and deal all of their DPS at once, they can escape to areas where ground units cannot go, ect. It's a bit like having DT's that are viable combat units for their cost even once detection is out. Just being air makes the units special on their own, giving them powerful combat stats on top of that makes them too strong. This is the problem with capital ships. They cannot be cost / supply efficient and air and easy to attain without maxing out on them being the game's optimal strategy. And without the ability to abuse terrain due to dedicated Air-to-Air units, they have no role in the game. edit: Brood Lords actually play with this by being supply/cost efficient but not having an air-to-air attack, giving them the most interesting dynamic of all "capital ships". Carriers and Battlecruisers are just too strong vs everything except dedicated AtA. ** Overpowered only in the sense that you require air to deal with your opponent's air, which creates a linear and uninteresting rock-paper-scissors style of gameplay. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 02 2014 22:13 ReMinD_ wrote: Not a single TvZ went in favor of Zerg. But hey, Alligulac says it's balanced, right? I know right, 3 games, THREE. This obviously proves terran is op, i mean in one game the zerg was slightly favored and he still lost, Blizzard open your eyes!!! + Show Spoiler + pls get real man | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
And we have a lot more zerg than I thought we'd have on the ro8. | ||
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Dwayn
Germany949 Posts
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
On November 02 2014 22:13 ReMinD_ wrote: Not a single TvZ went in favor of Zerg. But hey, Alligulac says it's balanced, right? Stop whining already! No proof! Statistics! In any case: Sample size too small (even though when it comes to current balance at the very top and things like winning significant tournaments, logically there'll never be that many samples (RO 16 onwards), since there aren't enough big tournaments in between two patches, so balance will always be fine for those who have their nice my-race-wins-enough-fan-experience). You know what? Zerg just need a few more months of not winning anything big, so they can "adjust" to the new meta  Now let's get back to the important stuff, like how reapers and battlecruisers can become more fun. | ||
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Rainmansc
Netherlands216 Posts
On November 02 2014 22:51 inken wrote: Stop whining already! No proof! Statistics! In any case: Sample size too small (even though when it comes to current balance at the very top and things like winning significant tournaments, logically there'll never be that many samples (RO 16 onwards), since there aren't enough big tournaments in between two patches, so balance will always be fine for those who have their nice my-race-wins-enough-fan-experience). You know what? Zerg just need a few more months of not winning anything big, so they can "adjust" to the new meta Now let's get back to the important stuff, like how reapers and battlecruisers can become more fun. What are you even saying? Weve seen yesterday 2 things that has been clear for a few months now. 2 Rax had just an insane winrate (even vs a 15 pool). And even if zerg is ahead going in to the late-game, zerg still can't get money efficient engagements because of the mines. soO played it so well but it was just sad to see how unbalanced TvZ is atm. Terrans micro their ass off, while zerg just sees their blings getting gunned down. | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On November 02 2014 22:57 Rainmansc wrote: What are you even saying? Weve seen yesterday 2 things that has been clear for a few months now. 2 Rax had just an insane winrate (even vs a 15 pool). And even if zerg is ahead going in to the late-game, zerg still can't get money efficient engagements because of the mines. soO played it so well but it was just sad to see how unbalanced TvZ is atm. Terrans micro their ass off, while zerg just sees their blings getting gunned down. Did you happen to watch that game? soO underestimated the 2 rax and didn't defend properly. Even then, he was OK. Then he went for a very risky baneling attack that failed. In the macro game, TaeJa's widow mine shots sucked all game and he still won. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On November 02 2014 22:57 Rainmansc wrote: What are you even saying? Weve seen yesterday 2 things that has been clear for a few months now. 2 Rax had just an insane winrate (even vs a 15 pool). And even if zerg is ahead going in to the late-game, zerg still can't get money efficient engagements because of the mines. soO played it so well but it was just sad to see how unbalanced TvZ is atm. Terrans micro their ass off, while zerg just sees their blings getting gunned down. Damn Taeja such a scrub and played like a noob and still beating soO ;( imba nerf plz Did you watch the games ? It was the highest level of play one can dream to have from Taeja. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
See WCS EU, WCS KR, WCS AM. I wonder which ter.. I mean who is going to win the global finals. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 02 2014 22:42 sibs wrote: Terran's actually lost a bo5! Finally! I swear it had never happened before since the patch! http://aligulac.com/results/search/?search=&after=2014-07-25&before=&players=&event=&bestof=5&offline=both&game=all&op=Soumettre On November 02 2014 22:43 Dwayn wrote: ZvT and PvT definitely need fixing. They should start of with fixing the 2-rax, it has a ridiculous winrate. On November 02 2014 22:57 Rainmansc wrote: What are you even saying? Weve seen yesterday 2 things that has been clear for a few months now. 2 Rax had just an insane winrate (even vs a 15 pool). And even if zerg is ahead going in to the late-game, zerg still can't get money efficient engagements because of the mines. soO played it so well but it was just sad to see how unbalanced TvZ is atm. Terrans micro their ass off, while zerg just sees their blings getting gunned down. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/255254-designated-balance-discussion-thread?page=1122#22423 "Insane!" "Ridiculous!" soO repelled the 2 rax easily before overextending to destroy a Bunker which was so far from the hatch it threatened nothing anyway, resulting in 2 Queens lost and ~20 lings to be remade. He then went for a bane bust that dealt little damage (8 SCVs for ~30 lings 15 banes) and still had a macro game afterwards with plenty of opportunities to win it. If it says something it's certainly not "2 rax OP". His game plan in the Nimbus game was terrible, he would have won easily had he teched broods after ultras/infests instead of wasting armies again and again offcreep for no valid reason. What TaeJa does—passively building a huge 4M/Thors army—is actually very dangerous since it allows the Zerg to bank at his heart's content and build an unbeatable Hive army. soO could have even made Swarm hosts given that TaeJa took the proxy fourth… At any rate he started his Hive quite early but never morphed a Greater Spire despite having the opportunity (resources/time) to do so at numerous times in the game. TaeJa was probably dumbfounded when he scanned the Spire at 30' on soO's natural. Even he was expecting broods at this time… | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
On November 02 2014 23:37 TheDwf wrote: Finally! I swear it had never happened before since the patch! http://aligulac.com/results/search/?search=&after=2014-07-25&before=&players=&event=&bestof=5&offline=both&game=all&op=Soumettre Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners! Great games though. | ||
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet. Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 02 2014 23:50 sibs wrote: Didn't happen in WCS excluding foreigners! Great games though. Damn, the bo5+ Terran lost are found in other tournaments, so it does mean Terran is unbeatable in bo5+; astonishing logic. On November 02 2014 23:52 Samx wrote: Yeah. Game is balanced. SoO was absolutely a noob and not the best Zerg on the planet. Taeja won because he was able to micro his widow mine perfectly to win 1 engagement to win each game. Being the best player of your race doesn't mean you play flawless... | ||
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
On November 02 2014 22:57 Rainmansc wrote: What are you even saying? Weve seen yesterday 2 things that has been clear for a few months now. 2 Rax had just an insane winrate (even vs a 15 pool). And even if zerg is ahead going in to the late-game, zerg still can't get money efficient engagements because of the mines. soO played it so well but it was just sad to see how unbalanced TvZ is atm. Terrans micro their ass off, while zerg just sees their blings getting gunned down. I was being sarcastic. I'm a starcraft fan and I like zerg. So I want to see my favorite race win something big, as often as the other races. Terran and toss fans want the same, and you'd be bitching and whining and have been bitching and whining just like us zerg lovers when your favourite race was under performing in the big tournaments. The top 20 players are ALL kinda equally freakin good, there aren't such huge skill gaps that would explain one race constantly under or over performing at the very top. I don't care about overall statistics, the leagues/ladders and learning curve. If blizzard managed to make it so that all races have equal chances of winning the biggest tournaments on the highest level of play, I'd like it. Every win would be equally impressive and enjoyable, no matter the race. If that would make one race too hard at lower levels, since only master level players would be able to exploit the full potential fo that race, I don't care. More honor for you if you still play that race in gold league and win. Balance with focus on the very top, no matter the consequences, is what I would prefer over statistically and scientifically proven super alligulac balance throughout all leagues (which is what at any point in time the currently most big tournament winning race(s) will prefer). I don't think it's possible to achieve balance throughout the whole spectrum and blizzard should just make a clear decision between those two. | ||
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HEADD
Czech Republic611 Posts
I call it now it wil be another TvT finals. After wcs EU TVT finals After wcs NA TVT finals After GSL Terran win Now Terran will win blizzcon and i am 110% sure blizzard will nerf Terran to the ground after blizzcon.They simply cannot allow this to happend anymore. We will have 1 zerg in blizzcon and thats only because Life didnt play vs Terran. And its only blizzard fault because they realease terran buffs right after that hellbat change a those buffs were unnecessary. | ||
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