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On October 13 2014 18:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 18:50 Big J wrote:On October 13 2014 18:45 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up. Well, just look... On October 10 2014 04:35 DinoMight wrote:
Look at the final rounds of recent tournaments
GSL, Terran won
Innovation 3 - 0 DRG
Innovation 4 - 2 soO
Cure 3 - 1 Solar
WCS EU, Terran won
Yoda 3 - 0 Golden
Golden 3 - 1 Happy
Red Bull, Terran won
Bomber 2 - 0 DRG
Cure 2 - 1 Scarlett
Polt 2 - 1 Scarlett
Dreamhack stockholm, Zerg won
soO 2 - 0 ForGG
soO 2 - 0 Ryung
Solar 2 -1 Bunny
Dreamhack moscow, Terran won
MMA 2- 0 Snute
JJakji 2 - 0 TRUE
Kespa Cup - no TvZs, Protoss won
IEM Toronto, Terran won
Taeja 3 - 1 Violet
Flash 3 - 2 Snute
If I counted correctly that's 11-4 in series and 31-17 in maps.
Add to that ...
WCS NA, Terran will win (TvT finals)
Heart 3-0 Scarlett
Heart 3-1 Hyun Just look at the quality of some of the material among all of this! soO loses an unscouted 2b Marines/Tanks all-in after faking a Roach/Baneling bust YoDa defends a Roach/Nydus all-in Golden is caught with only 5 Queens against a Hellbat timing TRUE loses Marines/Tanks (!) after throwing a gigantic lead Snute loses MMA's 2b all-in after droning to 80 viOLet loses one map against TaeJa going Roach/Infests after losing 15 drones to Hellion raid as usual Snute fails 3 bane busts in a row against Flash Scarlett overdrones against a 2b all-in and loses Scarlett goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss Scarlett's opening completely fails, she ends up behind and thus can't stop a 2b all-in HyuN gets 79 drones and infest pit against a 2b all-in and loses HyuN stays on lings/banes for 15 minutes, regularly crashing banes against Marauders HyuN goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss If the fact you can't drone to 80 against a 2b all-in doesn't prove there's a problem in TvZ, I don't know what will. So you pulled every game that a Zerg lost due to mistakes from your databank to prove... what exactly? To show that build order wins/losses or huge misreads tell nothing about the match-up?
Then we don't need to discuss the game. There were huge mistakes being made by the Terran sides as well. It is ALWAYS the players that lose the game.
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On October 13 2014 19:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 18:56 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 18:50 Big J wrote:On October 13 2014 18:45 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up. Well, just look... On October 10 2014 04:35 DinoMight wrote:
Look at the final rounds of recent tournaments
GSL, Terran won
Innovation 3 - 0 DRG
Innovation 4 - 2 soO
Cure 3 - 1 Solar
WCS EU, Terran won
Yoda 3 - 0 Golden
Golden 3 - 1 Happy
Red Bull, Terran won
Bomber 2 - 0 DRG
Cure 2 - 1 Scarlett
Polt 2 - 1 Scarlett
Dreamhack stockholm, Zerg won
soO 2 - 0 ForGG
soO 2 - 0 Ryung
Solar 2 -1 Bunny
Dreamhack moscow, Terran won
MMA 2- 0 Snute
JJakji 2 - 0 TRUE
Kespa Cup - no TvZs, Protoss won
IEM Toronto, Terran won
Taeja 3 - 1 Violet
Flash 3 - 2 Snute
If I counted correctly that's 11-4 in series and 31-17 in maps.
Add to that ...
WCS NA, Terran will win (TvT finals)
Heart 3-0 Scarlett
Heart 3-1 Hyun Just look at the quality of some of the material among all of this! soO loses an unscouted 2b Marines/Tanks all-in after faking a Roach/Baneling bust YoDa defends a Roach/Nydus all-in Golden is caught with only 5 Queens against a Hellbat timing TRUE loses Marines/Tanks (!) after throwing a gigantic lead Snute loses MMA's 2b all-in after droning to 80 viOLet loses one map against TaeJa going Roach/Infests after losing 15 drones to Hellion raid as usual Snute fails 3 bane busts in a row against Flash Scarlett overdrones against a 2b all-in and loses Scarlett goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss Scarlett's opening completely fails, she ends up behind and thus can't stop a 2b all-in HyuN gets 79 drones and infest pit against a 2b all-in and loses HyuN stays on lings/banes for 15 minutes, regularly crashing banes against Marauders HyuN goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss If the fact you can't drone to 80 against a 2b all-in doesn't prove there's a problem in TvZ, I don't know what will. So you pulled every game that a Zerg lost due to mistakes from your databank to prove... what exactly? To show that build order wins/losses or huge misreads tell nothing about the match-up? Then we don't need to discuss the game. There were huge mistakes being made by the Terran sides as well. It is ALWAYS the players that lose the game.
If you want to show one side is favored, you don't take games where the losing side didn't understand at all what was going on or ran into 10% winrate scenarii or threw a huge lead against an oudated composition or lost 3 workers per minute before the 10 minute mark (unless you can "prove" all of this is somewhat forced).
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I'd just like to point out that 17 sets is a tiny number. That's why weird things like Snute going for the same all-in 5 games in a row (successful on the first two, I might add) plays a role. Once you have 100 sets, TheDwf's comments about the content of the games doesn't matter as it averages out. You can always grab a random T that did something equally stupid. In the current set, you really cannot.
The best I can come up with is Innovation going for greedy builds against Soo in the first two games. But generally there just haven't been that many games, and people like Heart have played very clean.
The most interesting game out of those 17 sets was Hyun v Heart where Hyun won with BL. The transition was very clean and for the first time showed why going corruptors makes sense. I look forward to better players to show how it's actually done in the future.
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tbh i was pretty certain that terran was going to end up favoured after the last widowmine patch, its just simple logic
think of it this way
tvz was balanced before the original widowmine nerf, everyone will acknowledge that ( terrans and zergs alike) once zergs learned to deal with wm ( ie drg vs innovation last year)
the problem is it was balanced when zergs could play very greedy earlygame compared to now, mutas are delayed because you need to get an earlier bane nest due to hellbat pushes etc, and hellion banshee is more popular/less an investement
that and the map pool has been skewed to favour terran ( since they were horrendously underpowered prior to widowmine patch), that and thors auto-target mutas etc
ill admit terran was getting hammered prior to this patch, and honestly i dont think its the widowmines that make terran strong atm, (atleast in TvZ, since weve dealt with these wm before)
its more a combination of terran getting more aggressive openings/zergs playing safer + thor buff ( as its difficult to snipe a few units withought getting a shot to the face)
that and the map pool being generally terran favoured atm that makes them strong
not gona comment on tvp though, dont really watch the matchup because colo oppenings get so stale XD
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On October 13 2014 19:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 19:01 Big J wrote:On October 13 2014 18:56 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 18:50 Big J wrote:On October 13 2014 18:45 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up. Well, just look... On October 10 2014 04:35 DinoMight wrote:
Look at the final rounds of recent tournaments
GSL, Terran won
Innovation 3 - 0 DRG
Innovation 4 - 2 soO
Cure 3 - 1 Solar
WCS EU, Terran won
Yoda 3 - 0 Golden
Golden 3 - 1 Happy
Red Bull, Terran won
Bomber 2 - 0 DRG
Cure 2 - 1 Scarlett
Polt 2 - 1 Scarlett
Dreamhack stockholm, Zerg won
soO 2 - 0 ForGG
soO 2 - 0 Ryung
Solar 2 -1 Bunny
Dreamhack moscow, Terran won
MMA 2- 0 Snute
JJakji 2 - 0 TRUE
Kespa Cup - no TvZs, Protoss won
IEM Toronto, Terran won
Taeja 3 - 1 Violet
Flash 3 - 2 Snute
If I counted correctly that's 11-4 in series and 31-17 in maps.
Add to that ...
WCS NA, Terran will win (TvT finals)
Heart 3-0 Scarlett
Heart 3-1 Hyun Just look at the quality of some of the material among all of this! soO loses an unscouted 2b Marines/Tanks all-in after faking a Roach/Baneling bust YoDa defends a Roach/Nydus all-in Golden is caught with only 5 Queens against a Hellbat timing TRUE loses Marines/Tanks (!) after throwing a gigantic lead Snute loses MMA's 2b all-in after droning to 80 viOLet loses one map against TaeJa going Roach/Infests after losing 15 drones to Hellion raid as usual Snute fails 3 bane busts in a row against Flash Scarlett overdrones against a 2b all-in and loses Scarlett goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss Scarlett's opening completely fails, she ends up behind and thus can't stop a 2b all-in HyuN gets 79 drones and infest pit against a 2b all-in and loses HyuN stays on lings/banes for 15 minutes, regularly crashing banes against Marauders HyuN goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss If the fact you can't drone to 80 against a 2b all-in doesn't prove there's a problem in TvZ, I don't know what will. So you pulled every game that a Zerg lost due to mistakes from your databank to prove... what exactly? To show that build order wins/losses or huge misreads tell nothing about the match-up? Then we don't need to discuss the game. There were huge mistakes being made by the Terran sides as well. It is ALWAYS the players that lose the game. If you want to show one side is favored, you don't take games where the losing side didn't understand at all what was going on or ran into 10% winrate scenarii or threw a huge lead against an oudated composition or lost 3 workers per minute before the 10 minute mark (unless you can "prove" all of this is somewhat forced).
As I said before, every game is an example for players losing due to mistakes. Basically, you just dismiss every example one can give when you just start counting mistakes of only one side.
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On October 13 2014 19:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 19:08 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 19:01 Big J wrote:On October 13 2014 18:56 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 18:50 Big J wrote:On October 13 2014 18:45 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up. Well, just look... On October 10 2014 04:35 DinoMight wrote:
Look at the final rounds of recent tournaments
GSL, Terran won
Innovation 3 - 0 DRG
Innovation 4 - 2 soO
Cure 3 - 1 Solar
WCS EU, Terran won
Yoda 3 - 0 Golden
Golden 3 - 1 Happy
Red Bull, Terran won
Bomber 2 - 0 DRG
Cure 2 - 1 Scarlett
Polt 2 - 1 Scarlett
Dreamhack stockholm, Zerg won
soO 2 - 0 ForGG
soO 2 - 0 Ryung
Solar 2 -1 Bunny
Dreamhack moscow, Terran won
MMA 2- 0 Snute
JJakji 2 - 0 TRUE
Kespa Cup - no TvZs, Protoss won
IEM Toronto, Terran won
Taeja 3 - 1 Violet
Flash 3 - 2 Snute
If I counted correctly that's 11-4 in series and 31-17 in maps.
Add to that ...
WCS NA, Terran will win (TvT finals)
Heart 3-0 Scarlett
Heart 3-1 Hyun Just look at the quality of some of the material among all of this! soO loses an unscouted 2b Marines/Tanks all-in after faking a Roach/Baneling bust YoDa defends a Roach/Nydus all-in Golden is caught with only 5 Queens against a Hellbat timing TRUE loses Marines/Tanks (!) after throwing a gigantic lead Snute loses MMA's 2b all-in after droning to 80 viOLet loses one map against TaeJa going Roach/Infests after losing 15 drones to Hellion raid as usual Snute fails 3 bane busts in a row against Flash Scarlett overdrones against a 2b all-in and loses Scarlett goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss Scarlett's opening completely fails, she ends up behind and thus can't stop a 2b all-in HyuN gets 79 drones and infest pit against a 2b all-in and loses HyuN stays on lings/banes for 15 minutes, regularly crashing banes against Marauders HyuN goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss If the fact you can't drone to 80 against a 2b all-in doesn't prove there's a problem in TvZ, I don't know what will. So you pulled every game that a Zerg lost due to mistakes from your databank to prove... what exactly? To show that build order wins/losses or huge misreads tell nothing about the match-up? Then we don't need to discuss the game. There were huge mistakes being made by the Terran sides as well. It is ALWAYS the players that lose the game. If you want to show one side is favored, you don't take games where the losing side didn't understand at all what was going on or ran into 10% winrate scenarii or threw a huge lead against an oudated composition or lost 3 workers per minute before the 10 minute mark (unless you can "prove" all of this is somewhat forced). As I said before, every game is an example for players losing due to mistakes. Basically, you just dismiss every example one can give when you just start counting mistakes of only one side.
Nah, especially as all mistakes don't have the same status. I am perfectly aware that there are mistakes in every single game ever played.
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On October 13 2014 17:45 Ghanburighan wrote:Considering that everyone and their mother is jumping to the conclusion that T>Z, it might be useful to give a sneak preview of the next Aligulac list (out in 2 days, so the numbers are unlikely to change much). ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uHEDMtf.png)
Uh... /thread?
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I really don't understand how anyone, at this point, can say that TvZ isn't in favor of the Terran. It's baffling.
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On October 13 2014 19:56 ReMinD_ wrote:
I really don't understand how anyone, at this point, can say that TvZ isn't in favor of the Terran. It's baffling.
Aligulac Caught Conspiring with Terrans to Make Zergs Look Silly
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On October 13 2014 19:56 ReMinD_ wrote:
I really don't understand how anyone, at this point, can say that TvZ isn't in favor of the Terran. It's baffling.
Stats < Opinion!
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On October 13 2014 19:58 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 19:56 ReMinD_ wrote:
I really don't understand how anyone, at this point, can say that TvZ isn't in favor of the Terran. It's baffling. Aligulac Caught Conspiring with Terrans to Make Zergs Look Silly Haha good point.
This is exactly like 5-6 months ago when PvT was at 46% percent and terran was not weak vs protoss at all, they were just losing because all the protoss players were better and more skilled 
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Aligulac stats mean jack shit (excuse the profanity, but that's the first thing that pops in my mind whenever someone uses Aligulac as a measure for state of the balance).
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Let's take a look at all the playoffs in WCS premier leagues:
Code S:
Cure 3-1 Solar
Innovation 3-0 DRG
Innovation 4-2 soO
WCS EU:
Yoda 3-0 MC
Golden 3-1 Happy
Bunny 2-3 San
San 1-3 MMA
WCS AM:
Scarlet 0-3 Heart
Heart 3-1 Hyun
Bomber 3-1 Pigbaby
Polt 3-2 HerO
The only Terrans that lost in all the playoffs are Bunny and Happy. Almost all the recent tournaments follow the same trend. It's obvious that, at the highest level, Terran is favored in all match-ups.
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On October 13 2014 20:12 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 19:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 13 2014 19:56 ReMinD_ wrote:
I really don't understand how anyone, at this point, can say that TvZ isn't in favor of the Terran. It's baffling. Aligulac Caught Conspiring with Terrans to Make Zergs Look Silly Haha good point. This is exactly like 5-6 months ago when PvT was at 46% percent and terran was not weak vs protoss at all, they were just losing because all the protoss players were better and more skilled
It's not exactly the same, because Zergs still outnumber Terrans. The Terran argument at the time was "all the non-amazing Terrans aren't losing enough important matches." Zerg cannot make this argument. There were 2 fewer Zerg than Terran in EU, two more Zerg than Terran in KR, and 4 more Zerg than Terrans in AM this season. Literally Broodlord/Infestor this ain't...
On October 13 2014 20:15 ReMinD_ wrote:
Aligulac stats mean jack shit (excuse the profanity, but that's the first thing that pops in my mind whenever someone uses Aligulac as a measure for state of the balance).
Aligulac stats are a tool, whether they mean anything or not depends on how they're used. You're welcome to explain why 52% winrate ZvT with an abundance of Zerg players present at all levels of play is meaningless in disproving the notion that Terran is dominating Zerg.
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What is the problem with the matchup? it was fine, TvZ is all about terrans pressuring zerg bases and denying creep. Open maps with big rush distance is a huge deal. The map pool was the big problem for terran. But after hellbats change the matchup was prolly is a great shape, in this new map pool.
Terrans are not playing like they used to back in the times pre WM nerf. Its just like protoss, they figured out how to play damn HotS. Use thors vs mass muta, use hellbats in direct fights (not just for drops). The parade pushes is favoured over drop heavy play.
Hell, people talked about how the target fire priority was not a big deal, but terrans were losing a lot of thor shots hitting lings, so it did afected results. Don't really blame terran since there is a lot more to do other than keeping the thor selected in case mutas get in range. But it was a relevant buff. And widow mines are back? The hellbats change was all really needed, everything else was overkill. Same thing, "with proper micro its small bla bla", even top pros make a good share of mistakes most games, increasing the punishment is big.
Zerg must micro better than before, terran can just leave the thors afk. That part is healthy, but not when you do it over a balanced matchup.
Im not calling for a solution now, since maybe there is a right way for zerg to play standard. if there is not, then its time to nerf, but we need more time to figure everything off.
If you watch the games, what is keeping zerg with decent winrates vs T is the good old timings and cheeses, Roach bane, bane bust and other shenanigans. Also roach hydra that is not affected by the patches and is good vs hellbats.
Maybe just reverting the hellbat changes... And stick with those less open maps with no super easy and safe fourth base.
Or maybe a cheap and fast transformation servos upgrade (like concussive shells).
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I see TVZ strongly unbalanced right now.With recent Thor buff and widow mine buff without reverting hellbats buff.
I think this will balance the game:
1-revert helbatt buff-This prevent zerg from having good early economy+forcing him to banelings
2-revert thor buff-this is just stupid buff.Complete anti muta buff.Not necessary at all and pretty much forcing zerg not use mutas at all.
3-widow mine slightly nerf-Not in same state 3 moths ago, but slightly nerf, because i seen so many times 1 widow mine kills 20banelings in 1 hit.This is just not right.1 little mistake by zerg and ist game ending.
I think 70-80% of current splash damage would be OK.
Terrans will have still decent widow mines, but not that good that they can wipe 20 banelings with 1 hit and zergs still need micro.
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Northern Ireland25625 Posts
I really don't see things as 'strongly' imbalanced ATM, indeed I want to see things settle down and what people figure out.
Speaking of strong imbalance, for me the last extended period that was actually true was probably BL/Infestor era Wings
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On October 13 2014 22:29 HEADD wrote:
I see TVZ strongly unbalanced right now.With recent Thor buff and widow mine buff without reverting hellbats buff.
I think this will balance the game:
1-revert helbatt buff-This prevent zerg from having good early economy+forcing him to banelings
2-revert thor buff-this is just stupid buff.Complete anti muta buff.Not necessary at all and pretty much forcing zerg not use mutas at all.
3-widow mine slightly nerf-Not in same state 3 moths ago, but slightly nerf, because i seen so many times 1 widow mine kills 20banelings in 1 hit.This is just not right.1 little mistake by zerg and ist game ending.
I think 70-80% of current splash damage would be OK.
Terrans will have still decent widow mines, but not that good that they can wipe 20 banelings with 1 hit and zergs still need micro.
Then why does Zerg win more often than Terran does according to aligulac?
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On October 13 2014 22:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Zerg win more often than Terran does according to aligulac?
you realize how silly that sounds right?
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EPT
