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On October 13 2014 10:18 ZombieFrog wrote:
[Q
But Scarlett and Hyun played badly and Heart played perfectly, so it's normal. Besides, he was clearly favored.
I think your confused. Hyun was supposed to be favored against heart. Heart has never won a tournament in his entire career, never even made finals, while hyun was currently sitting at #1 WCS points. Why in the world would Heart be favored over Hyun? Just the opposite in fact.
Imagine *big* [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags all around my post 
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It's always hard to tell sarcasm in writing, especially when I've seen people say, very seriously, what you were saying sarcastically
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On October 13 2014 10:36 ZombieFrog wrote:
It's always hard to tell sarcasm in writing, especially when I've seen people say, very seriously, what you were saying sarcastically
Yeah, I was writing in advance the 'explanations' that will be coming anyway. The reactions to any criticism directed at terran in this topic are getting pretty predictable...
(oh I forgot one: "It's just a random occurrence, happened with other races before. Let's just wait a few months.")
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Yeah, I'm definitely starting to think Terran is too strong in TvZ at the pro level. I wanted to wait and see if Zerg is developing responses but it doesn't really look like it atm. The combination of the potential of Hellbat timings (forcing more unit heavy mid games out of Z and delaying Mutas) + a stronger late game with Widow Mines seems too strong.
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On October 13 2014 10:39 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 10:36 ZombieFrog wrote:
It's always hard to tell sarcasm in writing, especially when I've seen people say, very seriously, what you were saying sarcastically Yeah, I was writing in advance the 'explanations' that will be coming anyway. The reactions to any criticism directed at terran in this topic are getting pretty predictable... (oh I forgot one: "It's just a random occurrence, happened with other races before. Let's just wait a few months.")
Oh I didn't read the sarcasm in your post. Should have added a kappa in there but I guess they ban for that now. It's getting pretty ridiculous though:
Since patch:
2014 WCS S3 America -Terran, tvt final
2014 WCS S3 Europe -Terran, tvt final
2014 GSL S3 Code S -Terran
2014 DreamHack Open Stockholm -Zerg
2014 Red Bull Battle Grounds: Washington -Terran, tvt final
2014 DreamHack Open Moscow -Terran, tvt final
2014 KeSPA Cup -Protoss
World E-sport Championships 2014 (no Terrans participated)
IEM Season IX - Toronto -Terran
2014 Taiwan Open -Zerg (only 2 Terrans participated)
With 13-4 vs. Z.
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On October 13 2014 11:03 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 10:39 Maniak_ wrote:On October 13 2014 10:36 ZombieFrog wrote:
It's always hard to tell sarcasm in writing, especially when I've seen people say, very seriously, what you were saying sarcastically Yeah, I was writing in advance the 'explanations' that will be coming anyway. The reactions to any criticism directed at terran in this topic are getting pretty predictable... (oh I forgot one: "It's just a random occurrence, happened with other races before. Let's just wait a few months.") Oh I didn't read the sarcasm in your post. Should have added a kappa in there but I guess they ban for that now.
I must say it frightens me a bit that it could be read so easily as a serious post
It says a lot about the kind of 'pro-terran' arguments that are expected in here...
I'll make a note of not doing this again unless it's a lot more exaggerated. I really don't want to be mistaken for a... terran zealot (a new kind of hybrid in LotV, probably
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On October 13 2014 11:03 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 10:39 Maniak_ wrote:On October 13 2014 10:36 ZombieFrog wrote:
It's always hard to tell sarcasm in writing, especially when I've seen people say, very seriously, what you were saying sarcastically Yeah, I was writing in advance the 'explanations' that will be coming anyway. The reactions to any criticism directed at terran in this topic are getting pretty predictable... (oh I forgot one: "It's just a random occurrence, happened with other races before. Let's just wait a few months.") Oh I didn't read the sarcasm in your post. Should have added a kappa in there but I guess they ban for that now. It's getting pretty ridiculous though: Since patch: 2014 WCS S3 America -Terran, tvt final 2014 WCS S3 Europe -Terran, tvt final 2014 GSL S3 Code S -Terran 2014 DreamHack Open Stockholm -Zerg 2014 Red Bull Battle Grounds: Washington -Terran, tvt final 2014 DreamHack Open Moscow -Terran, tvt final 2014 KeSPA Cup -Protoss World E-sport Championships 2014 (no Terrans participated) IEM Season IX - Toronto -Terran 2014 Taiwan Open -Zerg (only 2 Terrans participated) With 13-4 vs. Z.
Yeah, there's no denying Terran is doing really well atm. I think we're seeing PvT pretty even, ZvP with a slight advantage to Z (I think? or maybe balanced, I've noticed quite a few top P falling out to Z lately though) and TvZ with a pretty significant advantage to T.
We haven't really seen the top P players in a lot of the recent tournaments though. None at DH Moscow, top P's fell out to Z at Stockholm, at RBBG Washington sOs fell out in PvP and Parting to Bomber/Scarlett, Toronto sOs fell out in group stages(?) to P/Z and Zest made finals, none at Taiwan open, in GSL all top P's fell out to PvP or PvZ except Parting losing to Innovation in group stages.
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Just scroll this thread back 2 months and everyone already said then T is overpowered and will win atleast twice as many tournaments as the other races unless they're nerfed. A lot of random counter arguments were thrown but the proof is in the pudding. I guess we can wait untill the end of the year just to get the ratios even more screwed. No skin off my back. Just fun to see fans take a game this imbalanced this seriously.
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Yes, 1 or 2 months ago i mentioned how i expected the patch was an overkill over the necessary hellbat buff (could be something else ofc) and balanced map pool. Turns out im convinced i was right now.
Next step is to realize if zerg players can figure out something or not O_O There are some attempts and we should wait and see. When terran was weak they figured out that thors and hellbats could be good additions to bio armies in those huge open maps, or even those pre rebuff mines. Now its zerg time to figure things out before any patch is done, and hopefully no overpatching will come. I think the game reached a nice state of balance overall and microscopic changes are the way to go, instead of 3 buffs in a row
Terran is winning most of recent tournaments, and while the tournament representation is not looking great for terran there was not enough time to adjust since the last patches. I might change for much better for T. Hope the matchup is looked at in the off-season and proper adjustments are done before WCS 2015.
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why the f is zerg always supposed to figure out if smth is overpowered and/or come up with a new metagame? what if 2-base lair before lingspeed would be a thing? lower thor building time? the game is fine with fast 3 bases for zerg. balance the game around it. but i guess it already is, its just the better players that are winning.
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Is this a discussion thread or the Designated Balance Whine thread?
All you guys have been doing for pages is claim how terrible ZvT is and how Z will never get past ro32 again.
Discuss possible (VIABLE) solutions please.
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Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up.
A brief history: HOTS TvZ started Terran favored because Zerg had no idea how to deal with WMs. Eventually, with the help of an Overseer movement buff, they adapted. By the time DRG beat Innovation, no one was saying "imba," some people were saying "stale." Then the following things happened:
1) WM nerfed to hell in TvZ.
2) Combined mech/air upgrades for Terran (don't affect WM).
3) Removed Hellbat upgrade requirement.
4) WM unnerfed to exactly how it used to be in TvZ.
5) Thor attack priority changed so they're better against Mutalisks.
So what do you blame? It can't be WMs because they weren't a problem pre-nerf. It can't be combined upgrades because that only affects SH/mech games and mech timing builds (I'd love to know how many of the TvZs being talked about featured mech timing builds, and how many of those succeeded vs. failed) and no one's been raising a fuss over those anyway. As I see it, if there is an imbalance, the only possible candidates are no-upgrade Hellbats and Thors with new attack priority (I'd love to see some stats on Thor use with bio post-patch, and whether the game was a win or a loss). That feels like a stretch to me.
Is the map pool at fault? Three of the maps in 2014 S3's pool are bigger than Whirlwind. Another three are damn close. Only Overgrowth is smaller, but Zerg seem to like it fine anyway.
If you think there's a problem, what is the problem?
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On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up.
A brief history: HOTS TvZ started Terran favored because Zerg had no idea how to deal with WMs. Eventually, with the help of an Overseer movement buff, they adapted. By the time DRG beat Innovation, no one was saying "imba," some people were saying "stale." Then the following things happened:
1) WM nerfed to hell in TvZ.
2) Combined mech/air upgrades for Terran (don't affect WM).
3) Removed Hellbat upgrade requirement.
4) WM unnerfed to exactly how it used to be in TvZ.
5) Thor attack priority changed so they're better against Mutalisks.
So what do you blame? It can't be WMs because they weren't a problem pre-nerf. It can't be combined upgrades because that only affects SH/mech games and mech timing builds (I'd love to know how many of the TvZs being talked about featured mech timing builds, and how many of those succeeded vs. failed) and no one's been raising a fuss over those anyway. As I see it, if there is an imbalance, the only possible candidates are no-upgrade Hellbats and Thors with new attack priority (I'd love to see some stats on Thor use with bio post-patch, and whether the game was a win or a loss). That feels like a stretch to me.
Is the map pool at fault? Three of the maps in 2014 S3's pool are bigger than Whirlwind. Another three are damn close. Only Overgrowth is smaller, but Zerg seem to like it fine anyway.
If you think there's a problem, what is the problem?
It can't be a non-widow mine option, that would mean the zergs have just been outplayed. Not cool man, not cool
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Considering that everyone and their mother is jumping to the conclusion that T>Z, it might be useful to give a sneak preview of the next Aligulac list (out in 2 days, so the numbers are unlikely to change much).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uHEDMtf.png)
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On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up.
A brief history: HOTS TvZ started Terran favored because Zerg had no idea how to deal with WMs. Eventually, with the help of an Overseer movement buff, they adapted. By the time DRG beat Innovation, no one was saying "imba," some people were saying "stale." Then the following things happened:
1) WM nerfed to hell in TvZ.
2) Combined mech/air upgrades for Terran (don't affect WM).
3) Removed Hellbat upgrade requirement.
4) WM unnerfed to exactly how it used to be in TvZ.
5) Thor attack priority changed so they're better against Mutalisks.
So what do you blame? It can't be WMs because they weren't a problem pre-nerf. It can't be combined upgrades because that only affects SH/mech games and mech timing builds (I'd love to know how many of the TvZs being talked about featured mech timing builds, and how many of those succeeded vs. failed) and no one's been raising a fuss over those anyway. As I see it, if there is an imbalance, the only possible candidates are no-upgrade Hellbats and Thors with new attack priority (I'd love to see some stats on Thor use with bio post-patch, and whether the game was a win or a loss). That feels like a stretch to me.
Is the map pool at fault? Three of the maps in 2014 S3's pool are bigger than Whirlwind. Another three are damn close. Only Overgrowth is smaller, but Zerg seem to like it fine anyway.
If you think there's a problem, what is the problem?
That's quite blue-eyed. It's not really possible to single out certain patches alone. It's a race pick that plays against a race pick. If there is problem it can usually be fixed in various ways. In general I believe it is stupid to blame something like a widow mine, when Terrans actually only spend like 10% of their income on that unit. It's a support unit, it does its job (btw it did its job before the rebuff too, just not as marvellously as now). Or a hellbat when it is not even used past certain pushes. It's rather great that those units are actually being mixed in. It gives more combat tactics. More micromanagement.
Imo, the biggest problem of TvZ is still very accurately described in MC's article.
The situation has become a little better with the Mech buffs, so at least one side can choose to play the game differently these days. For Zergs it's still the same game without a real initiative to do anything but scout, react, wait, wait, wait, wait.
I think a lot of Zerg losses come from Zergs trying to end the game once they grab an advantage:
soO vs INnoVation game 6
DRG vs INnoVation game 2
to give recent examples.
Zerg must not attack, in particular they must not use banelings for anything but killing army units in a defensive manner. I think that's where Koreans just do not calculate well. You cannot trade 5 banelings for 10 SCVs when you also have to break a bunker and or supply depot with more banelings before you even get to the SCVs.
But yeah, this is where the frustration stems from. If you were to play the perfect ZvT as Zerg it basically is just macro, creepspreading, defending, rebuilding units, defending, eventually getting a mutalisk cloud up, defending...
How to win? Well, the Terran is either heavily 3basing, then his pushes will get weaker between 16-20mins. Then you can go over and kill/deny his 4th and/or build a 5th
Or the Terran is getting a quicker 4th, then you take a faster 5th and eventually kill/deny his 5th at 25mins.
It feels stupid to wait for the opponent to run out of resources. It's Swarm Hosts all over again. Granted, the micro is much, much more fun. The strategy is even duller.
+ Show Spoiler +A little offtopic: Obviously Snute, the best strategist (since Stephano) understood this and now tries to make Swarm Host transitions work (guess which player originally tried that  ) so he can do damage without attacking. Personally I doubt this style can work, since against these styles it is possible to: - starve the Zerg on 4-5bases - try and break right on through - kill the zerg in the transition - kill the zerg with massive drop play but that is really just something you would see if both sides trained that style a lot.
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On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up.
Well, just look...
On October 10 2014 04:35 DinoMight wrote:
Look at the final rounds of recent tournaments
GSL, Terran won
Innovation 3 - 0 DRG
Innovation 4 - 2 soO
Cure 3 - 1 Solar
WCS EU, Terran won
Yoda 3 - 0 Golden
Golden 3 - 1 Happy
Red Bull, Terran won
Bomber 2 - 0 DRG
Cure 2 - 1 Scarlett
Polt 2 - 1 Scarlett
Dreamhack stockholm, Zerg won
soO 2 - 0 ForGG
soO 2 - 0 Ryung
Solar 2 -1 Bunny
Dreamhack moscow, Terran won
MMA 2- 0 Snute
JJakji 2 - 0 TRUE
Kespa Cup - no TvZs, Protoss won
IEM Toronto, Terran won
Taeja 3 - 1 Violet
Flash 3 - 2 Snute
If I counted correctly that's 11-4 in series and 31-17 in maps.
Add to that ...
WCS NA, Terran will win (TvT finals)
Heart 3-0 Scarlett
Heart 3-1 Hyun
Just look at the quality of some of the material among all of this!
soO loses an unscouted 2b Marines/Tanks all-in after faking a Roach/Baneling bust
YoDa defends a Roach/Nydus all-in
Golden is caught with only 5 Queens against a Hellbat timing
TRUE loses Marines/Tanks (!) after throwing a gigantic lead
Snute loses MMA's 2b all-in after droning to 80
viOLet loses one map against TaeJa going Roach/Infests after losing 15 drones to Hellion raid as usual
Snute fails 3 bane busts in a row against Flash
Scarlett overdrones against a 2b all-in and loses
Scarlett goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss
Scarlett's opening completely fails, she ends up behind and thus can't stop a 2b all-in
HyuN gets 79 drones and infest pit against a 2b all-in and loses
HyuN stays on lings/banes for 15 minutes, regularly crashing banes against Marauders
HyuN goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss
If the fact you can't drone to 80 against a 2b all-in doesn't prove there's a problem in TvZ, I don't know what will.
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On October 13 2014 18:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up. Well, just look... Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 04:35 DinoMight wrote:
Look at the final rounds of recent tournaments
GSL, Terran won
Innovation 3 - 0 DRG
Innovation 4 - 2 soO
Cure 3 - 1 Solar
WCS EU, Terran won
Yoda 3 - 0 Golden
Golden 3 - 1 Happy
Red Bull, Terran won
Bomber 2 - 0 DRG
Cure 2 - 1 Scarlett
Polt 2 - 1 Scarlett
Dreamhack stockholm, Zerg won
soO 2 - 0 ForGG
soO 2 - 0 Ryung
Solar 2 -1 Bunny
Dreamhack moscow, Terran won
MMA 2- 0 Snute
JJakji 2 - 0 TRUE
Kespa Cup - no TvZs, Protoss won
IEM Toronto, Terran won
Taeja 3 - 1 Violet
Flash 3 - 2 Snute
If I counted correctly that's 11-4 in series and 31-17 in maps.
Add to that ...
WCS NA, Terran will win (TvT finals)
Heart 3-0 Scarlett
Heart 3-1 Hyun Just look at the quality of some of the material among all of this! soO loses an unscouted 2b Marines/Tanks all-in after faking a Roach/Baneling bust YoDa defends a Roach/Nydus all-in Golden is caught with only 5 Queens against a Hellbat timing TRUE loses Marines/Tanks (!) after throwing a gigantic lead Snute loses MMA's 2b all-in after droning to 80 viOLet loses one map against TaeJa going Roach/Infests after losing 15 drones to Hellion raid as usual Snute fails 3 bane busts in a row against Flash Scarlett overdrones against a 2b all-in and loses Scarlett goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss Scarlett's opening completely fails, she ends up behind and thus can't stop a 2b all-in HyuN gets 79 drones and infest pit against a 2b all-in and loses HyuN stays on lings/banes for 15 minutes, regularly crashing banes against Marauders HyuN goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss If the fact you can't drone to 80 against a 2b all-in doesn't prove there's a problem in TvZ, I don't know what will.
So you pulled every game that a Zerg lost due to mistakes from your databank to prove... what exactly?
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On October 13 2014 17:45 Ghanburighan wrote:Considering that everyone and their mother is jumping to the conclusion that T>Z, it might be useful to give a sneak preview of the next Aligulac list (out in 2 days, so the numbers are unlikely to change much).
Lol that's hilarious xD
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On October 13 2014 18:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 18:45 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up. Well, just look... On October 10 2014 04:35 DinoMight wrote:
Look at the final rounds of recent tournaments
GSL, Terran won
Innovation 3 - 0 DRG
Innovation 4 - 2 soO
Cure 3 - 1 Solar
WCS EU, Terran won
Yoda 3 - 0 Golden
Golden 3 - 1 Happy
Red Bull, Terran won
Bomber 2 - 0 DRG
Cure 2 - 1 Scarlett
Polt 2 - 1 Scarlett
Dreamhack stockholm, Zerg won
soO 2 - 0 ForGG
soO 2 - 0 Ryung
Solar 2 -1 Bunny
Dreamhack moscow, Terran won
MMA 2- 0 Snute
JJakji 2 - 0 TRUE
Kespa Cup - no TvZs, Protoss won
IEM Toronto, Terran won
Taeja 3 - 1 Violet
Flash 3 - 2 Snute
If I counted correctly that's 11-4 in series and 31-17 in maps.
Add to that ...
WCS NA, Terran will win (TvT finals)
Heart 3-0 Scarlett
Heart 3-1 Hyun Just look at the quality of some of the material among all of this! soO loses an unscouted 2b Marines/Tanks all-in after faking a Roach/Baneling bust YoDa defends a Roach/Nydus all-in Golden is caught with only 5 Queens against a Hellbat timing TRUE loses Marines/Tanks (!) after throwing a gigantic lead Snute loses MMA's 2b all-in after droning to 80 viOLet loses one map against TaeJa going Roach/Infests after losing 15 drones to Hellion raid as usual Snute fails 3 bane busts in a row against Flash Scarlett overdrones against a 2b all-in and loses Scarlett goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss Scarlett's opening completely fails, she ends up behind and thus can't stop a 2b all-in HyuN gets 79 drones and infest pit against a 2b all-in and loses HyuN stays on lings/banes for 15 minutes, regularly crashing banes against Marauders HyuN goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss If the fact you can't drone to 80 against a 2b all-in doesn't prove there's a problem in TvZ, I don't know what will. So you pulled every game that a Zerg lost due to mistakes from your databank to prove... what exactly?
The so-called evidence is rubbish
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On October 13 2014 18:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 18:45 TheDwf wrote:On October 13 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Terran is imbalanced in TvZ, please feel free to explain what is actually imbalanced about the match-up. Well, just look... On October 10 2014 04:35 DinoMight wrote:
Look at the final rounds of recent tournaments
GSL, Terran won
Innovation 3 - 0 DRG
Innovation 4 - 2 soO
Cure 3 - 1 Solar
WCS EU, Terran won
Yoda 3 - 0 Golden
Golden 3 - 1 Happy
Red Bull, Terran won
Bomber 2 - 0 DRG
Cure 2 - 1 Scarlett
Polt 2 - 1 Scarlett
Dreamhack stockholm, Zerg won
soO 2 - 0 ForGG
soO 2 - 0 Ryung
Solar 2 -1 Bunny
Dreamhack moscow, Terran won
MMA 2- 0 Snute
JJakji 2 - 0 TRUE
Kespa Cup - no TvZs, Protoss won
IEM Toronto, Terran won
Taeja 3 - 1 Violet
Flash 3 - 2 Snute
If I counted correctly that's 11-4 in series and 31-17 in maps.
Add to that ...
WCS NA, Terran will win (TvT finals)
Heart 3-0 Scarlett
Heart 3-1 Hyun Just look at the quality of some of the material among all of this! soO loses an unscouted 2b Marines/Tanks all-in after faking a Roach/Baneling bust YoDa defends a Roach/Nydus all-in Golden is caught with only 5 Queens against a Hellbat timing TRUE loses Marines/Tanks (!) after throwing a gigantic lead Snute loses MMA's 2b all-in after droning to 80 viOLet loses one map against TaeJa going Roach/Infests after losing 15 drones to Hellion raid as usual Snute fails 3 bane busts in a row against Flash Scarlett overdrones against a 2b all-in and loses Scarlett goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss Scarlett's opening completely fails, she ends up behind and thus can't stop a 2b all-in HyuN gets 79 drones and infest pit against a 2b all-in and loses HyuN stays on lings/banes for 15 minutes, regularly crashing banes against Marauders HyuN goes for a Roach/Baneling bust and gets a build order loss If the fact you can't drone to 80 against a 2b all-in doesn't prove there's a problem in TvZ, I don't know what will. So you pulled every game that a Zerg lost due to mistakes from your databank to prove... what exactly?
To show that build order wins/losses or huge misreads tell nothing about the match-up?
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EPT
