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On August 10 2014 20:17 Svizcy wrote:
Easies way to have less BO poker is for them to implement a build radious arround, Nexus, CC and Hatchery. That way all other buildings need to be build in some radious arroud those main buildings.
Radious should be big enaugh to cover all main base. This way it wont affect the "normal" builds but you automatically get rid of all proxies, which is where the most BO poker ussualy happens.
What if I want to walloff a strategic area that might be a bit far from my CC?
Proxies and cheese are part of the game.
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On August 11 2014 10:24 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2014 20:17 Svizcy wrote:
Easies way to have less BO poker is for them to implement a build radious arround, Nexus, CC and Hatchery. That way all other buildings need to be build in some radious arroud those main buildings.
Radious should be big enaugh to cover all main base. This way it wont affect the "normal" builds but you automatically get rid of all proxies, which is where the most BO poker ussualy happens. What if I want to walloff a strategic area that might be a bit far from my CC? Proxies and cheese are part of the game.
You can wall of there but you have to build CC first to get a build radius. Walling off shouldnt be a problem, cause it would be really massive circle arround your main base structure.
It would only affect proxies near your oponents base at start of the game.
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On August 11 2014 16:17 Svizcy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 10:24 Genome852 wrote:On August 10 2014 20:17 Svizcy wrote:
Easies way to have less BO poker is for them to implement a build radious arround, Nexus, CC and Hatchery. That way all other buildings need to be build in some radious arroud those main buildings.
Radious should be big enaugh to cover all main base. This way it wont affect the "normal" builds but you automatically get rid of all proxies, which is where the most BO poker ussualy happens. What if I want to walloff a strategic area that might be a bit far from my CC? Proxies and cheese are part of the game. You can wall of there but you have to build CC first to get a build radius. Walling off shouldnt be a problem, cause it would be really massive circle arround your main base structure. It would only affect proxies near your oponents base at start of the game.
if they removed proxies then the same players who hate them would just move on to complaining about timing attacks and allins. then what? increase defenders advantage to remove allins, then no one attacks and every game is sim city into deathball fights? in my experience players who complain about this type of thing all tend to be standard, defensive macro players who think that if they click buildings faster than their opponent they automatically deserve a win, and i dont agree with that attitude. if you react to something cheesy by thinking "this shouldnt work, im better than him" you just have a bad attitude toward gaming and its not blizzards fault you dont adapt
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On August 11 2014 16:17 Svizcy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 10:24 Genome852 wrote:On August 10 2014 20:17 Svizcy wrote:
Easies way to have less BO poker is for them to implement a build radious arround, Nexus, CC and Hatchery. That way all other buildings need to be build in some radious arroud those main buildings.
Radious should be big enaugh to cover all main base. This way it wont affect the "normal" builds but you automatically get rid of all proxies, which is where the most BO poker ussualy happens. What if I want to walloff a strategic area that might be a bit far from my CC? Proxies and cheese are part of the game. You can wall of there but you have to build CC first to get a build radius. Walling off shouldnt be a problem, cause it would be really massive circle arround your main base structure. It would only affect proxies near your oponents base at start of the game.
this destroys any forge expands?
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On August 11 2014 16:37 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 16:17 Svizcy wrote:On August 11 2014 10:24 Genome852 wrote:On August 10 2014 20:17 Svizcy wrote:
Easies way to have less BO poker is for them to implement a build radious arround, Nexus, CC and Hatchery. That way all other buildings need to be build in some radious arroud those main buildings.
Radious should be big enaugh to cover all main base. This way it wont affect the "normal" builds but you automatically get rid of all proxies, which is where the most BO poker ussualy happens. What if I want to walloff a strategic area that might be a bit far from my CC? Proxies and cheese are part of the game. You can wall of there but you have to build CC first to get a build radius. Walling off shouldnt be a problem, cause it would be really massive circle arround your main base structure. It would only affect proxies near your oponents base at start of the game. if they removed proxies then the same players who hate them would just move on to complaining about timing attacks and allins. then what? increase defenders advantage to remove allins, then no one attacks and every game is sim city into deathball fights? in my experience players who complain about this type of thing all tend to be standard, defensive macro players who think that if they click buildings faster than their opponent they automatically deserve a win, and i dont agree with that attitude. if you react to something cheesy by thinking "this shouldnt work, im better than him" you just have a bad attitude toward gaming and its not blizzards fault you dont adapt
you cannot adapt to something that builds upon missinformation.
If all those proxies were reliably scoutable, noone would complain. Yeah, blabla "just scout at X". Fact is that people play proxies because they often go through unscouted, since it's not helpful to always blindscout for them.
This has nothing to do with timing attacks. When at 7,8,9mins I'm in the dark about what my opponent does, shame on me. But not at 2mins. Not when a proxy stargate goes down when I don't even have a reaper. These builds are just coinflips.
And yes, of course any player that believes in a somewhat balanced game will tell you that a certain timing attack "shouldn't work". If a timing attack was more reliable than its defense, then that implies it produces a higher winrate. So the race that has the timing is just overpowered. Hence, in a balanced game there cannot be a timing attack that "should work if I defend perfectly".
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On August 11 2014 16:57 Big J wrote:
And yes, of course any player that believes in a somewhat balanced game will tell you that a certain timing attack "shouldn't work". If a timing attack was more reliable than its defense, then that implies it produces a higher winrate. So the race that has the timing is just overpowered. Hence, in a balanced game there cannot be a timing attack that "should work if I defend perfectly".
lol what the fuck? so what should work? are you saying the only thing that should matter is positioning and macro? so if im playing zvz and i go for a strong roach/ling timing and my opponent scouts it and sits back to defend, it should be impossible for me to win by executing and using my units better? well there goes most recent proleague zvz i guess. see thats my problem with this macro elitism, you just made my point for me exactly. "if i defend perfectly then aggression should never work" oh well sorry i didn't wait for you to make 15 tempests or 25 swarm hosts or 10 ravens, i didn't know we were playing nr 20. what's the point of REAL TIME strategy if there's no way to put on pressure? why arent you playing civilization instead?
as for your point about proxy builds, lack of information IS information. proxy stargate vs terran is probably the only instance where i would somewhat agree just because terran is basically forced into very specific defensive builds and stances by the threat of an oracle, which is a bit silly. but the problem isn't that it's not scoutable, the problem is that it's both difficult to scout and requires exactly 6+ marines/turret in your mineral line at all times or else your economy is gone and you're playing from behind against a defensive race, which sucks, i agree. but this problem isn't introduced by proxies. in base oracle can accomplish the same thing.
if you think unscouted allins are autowin then you just arent playing on a high enough level to understand the flow of the game. and most players who think theyre "defending perfectly," guess what, are not defending perfectly anyway.
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No, I understand him saying timing attacks are fine as long as the defender has a fighting chance when s/he diligently scout them out. What he dislikes is a blind proxy that is nearly impossible to scout and get you abnormal win rates when unscouted (or even when scouted).
I sort of agree and I believe blizzard does, too, although probably not as much as Big J dislikes proxies. That is why zealot build time was increased and void ray build time was increased in WOL. Apparently MakaPrime sent David Kim a replay where a terran couldn't defend a scouted void ray all-ins. That kind of proxies are not just a coin flip but a clear imbalance.
Having said that, I don't see too big of an imbalance in proxies and timings these days. Sometimes there happen bad lucks but those happen both to attackers and defenders, it seems. Those who neglect scouting are deserved to be punished for the most part.
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On August 11 2014 18:49 usethis2 wrote:
No, I understand him saying timing attacks are fine as long as the defender has a fighting chance when s/he diligently scout them out. What he dislikes is a blind proxy that is nearly impossible to scout and get you abnormal win rates when unscouted (or even when scouted).
I sort of agree and I believe blizzard does, too, although probably not as much as Big J dislikes proxies. That is why zealot build time was increased and void ray build time was increased in WOL. Apparently MakaPrime sent David Kim a replay where a terran couldn't defend a scouted void ray all-ins. That kind of proxies are not just a coin flip but a clear imbalance.
Having said that, I don't see too big of an imbalance in proxies and timings these days. Sometimes there happen bad lucks but those happen both to attackers and defenders, it seems. Those who neglect scouting are deserved to be punished for the most part.
thats not what he said. he said or strongly implied that a scouted timing attack should always be defended if the players are equally skilled. which basically means that if you attack before youre maxed and win, big j thinks it's imba.
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On August 11 2014 19:39 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 18:49 usethis2 wrote:
No, I understand him saying timing attacks are fine as long as the defender has a fighting chance when s/he diligently scout them out. What he dislikes is a blind proxy that is nearly impossible to scout and get you abnormal win rates when unscouted (or even when scouted).
I sort of agree and I believe blizzard does, too, although probably not as much as Big J dislikes proxies. That is why zealot build time was increased and void ray build time was increased in WOL. Apparently MakaPrime sent David Kim a replay where a terran couldn't defend a scouted void ray all-ins. That kind of proxies are not just a coin flip but a clear imbalance.
Having said that, I don't see too big of an imbalance in proxies and timings these days. Sometimes there happen bad lucks but those happen both to attackers and defenders, it seems. Those who neglect scouting are deserved to be punished for the most part. thats not what he said. he said or strongly implied that a scouted timing attack should always be defended if the players are equally skilled. which basically means that if you attack before youre maxed and win, big j thinks it's imba.
Please agree on the definition of timing attack before going down this road. :o
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On August 11 2014 19:44 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 19:39 brickrd wrote:On August 11 2014 18:49 usethis2 wrote:
No, I understand him saying timing attacks are fine as long as the defender has a fighting chance when s/he diligently scout them out. What he dislikes is a blind proxy that is nearly impossible to scout and get you abnormal win rates when unscouted (or even when scouted).
I sort of agree and I believe blizzard does, too, although probably not as much as Big J dislikes proxies. That is why zealot build time was increased and void ray build time was increased in WOL. Apparently MakaPrime sent David Kim a replay where a terran couldn't defend a scouted void ray all-ins. That kind of proxies are not just a coin flip but a clear imbalance.
Having said that, I don't see too big of an imbalance in proxies and timings these days. Sometimes there happen bad lucks but those happen both to attackers and defenders, it seems. Those who neglect scouting are deserved to be punished for the most part. thats not what he said. he said or strongly implied that a scouted timing attack should always be defended if the players are equally skilled. which basically means that if you attack before youre maxed and win, big j thinks it's imba. Please agree on the definition of timing attack before going down this road. :o
thats not goign to happen, hes just going to conveniently define "timing attack" as whichever particular builds he thinks are imba to play against, bringing it down to the basic complaint of "your attack takes less skill to execute than my defense" which is a matter of opinion no matter how you slice it
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good job david kim.keep listening to gold league whiners,maybe the game will officially died soon
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DmHxcyL.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On August 11 2014 20:04 jojos11 wrote:good job david kim.keep listening to gold league whiners,maybe the game will officially died soon
Far too small of a sample size, this is nitpicking to try and validate a balance whine.
Furthermore, all three races are a little of out of balance right now because everyone is still adjusting to the new changes, which doesn't happen overnight.
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On August 11 2014 20:04 jojos11 wrote:good job david kim.keep listening to gold league whiners,maybe the game will officially died soon
lol just look at how many terrans actually are in these statistics.
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On August 11 2014 20:10 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 20:04 jojos11 wrote:good job david kim.keep listening to gold league whiners,maybe the game will officially died soon Far too small of a sample size, this is nitpicking to try and validate a balance whine. Furthermore, all three races are a little of out of balance right now because everyone is still adjusting to the new changes, which doesn't happen overnight.
Well not really, even though the sample size is small, the winrates have drastically changed over this past month. You can't just say that protoss players just happened to play bad or Terran players just happened to play better. But I agree that it takes a while for winrates to actually mean something
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Variance, new meta, players trying out new things.
You definately need more than 400 games
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If we agree that terran was UP and was underrepresented at the highest level, they need to have a winrate > 50% to repopulate the top level anyway.
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winrates will be in favor of Terran for a little bit until the player distributions are adjusted. At the moment there are still way too many Protoss players for example in GSL Code S. After these big balance changes the worse P and Z will fall out and a bunch of Terrans will get in.
If the winrates are still like this in 2 month and if the growth of Terran and the decline of P and Z doesn't stop until then, then we know that we have a balance problem.
We can't tell just yet as we are still in the middle of the adjustment phase
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Looking at tvp that's how it should be after a patch, optimally tvz should be the same.
The win rate will balance it out by it self, what determines if it was a success is if the win rates is about 50% when the number of tvts is about the same as the other mirrors.
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On August 11 2014 20:04 jojos11 wrote:good job david kim.keep listening to gold league whiners,maybe the game will officially died soon User was warned for this post
This is the expected and desired outcome of the balance patch.
Balance, for many of us, means reasonable representation of all three races in tournament play, and as tournament winners.
Win rates only express the rate of change of balance. If Terrans are winning more, that means that more of them are getting deeper into tournaments.
That would be a problem if terrans were already at 1/3rd or greater representation, but they are not. Terrans have extremely poor representation in high level play, so this increase in win rates is only evidence that things are evening out.
There is no way Code S should be 3 Terrans and 15+ Protoss. The 10% win rate differential you are crying about is nothing more than than the weaker Protoss players dropping out to make room for the top few Terran players who were forced out due to the previous state of the game.
You can start to whine once both races constitute aprox 1/3rd of the competetive player base. For now, a skewed PvT winrate is good.
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On August 11 2014 22:51 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 20:04 jojos11 wrote:good job david kim.keep listening to gold league whiners,maybe the game will officially died soon User was warned for this post This is the expected and desired outcome of the balance patch. Balance, for many of us, means reasonable representation of all three races in tournament play, and as tournament winners. Win rates only express the rate of change of balance. If Terrans are winning more, that means that more of them are getting deeper into tournaments.That would be a problem if terrans were already at 1/3rd or greater representation, but they are not. Terrans have extremely poor representation in high level play, so this increase in win rates is only evidence that things are evening out. There is no way Code S should be 3 Terrans and 15+ Protoss. The 10% win rate differential you are crying about is nothing more than than the weaker Protoss players dropping out to make room for the top few Terran players who were forced out due to the previous state of the game. You can start to whine once both races constitute aprox 1/3rd of the competetive player base. For now, a skewed PvT winrate is good.
I don't know if that's true. In the simulations topic some pages ago it seemed to be the case that win rates at the top level reflect the balance and that they are not just an indication of changing balance.
And look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_IX_-_Toronto/Korean_and_Taiwan_Qualifier
3 out of 4 winners are terran, 2 out of 4 finals were TvT
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EPT
