On August 12 2014 01:29 Green_25 wrote: Personally think mines are too strong. Would've preferred for Terran to get buffed in some other way. To effectively engage bio you need to close distance 9/10, when mines are this powerful thats almost impossible.
Not basing this of stats though, just playing the game and watching top terrans, so maybe my opinion isn't relevant
What in the world is Protoss going to do with their range 9 collosus and range 9 psistorms against those terrifying range 5 widow mines? That widow mine killed a zealot and splashed 2 more units while they charged into the enemy. Such terrible game ending damage, might as well gg!
Whats that? Micro? Splitting Units? What do these strange words mean?
If you take into account the speed and pathing of protoss deathballs, reactionary splitting is not an option.
Preemptive splitting can work, but there is a reason it is called the deathball: Because splitting it up makes it significantly weaker.
On August 12 2014 03:52 Faust852 wrote: Funny enough, most of the games won by P recently against T was when they went either straight to HTs (Trap vs Reality on Overgrowth) Or do some tricky 1 colo into HTs. So WMs were useless most of the time in the standard TvP games that T won. The only things that is to take into consideration then is Time Warp time reduction and the lack of skill of protoss that can't deal with a single WMs in their mineral lines.
This is very true. But it does not necessarily imply the styles are still relevant. It might just as well mean that P already believe that they have a better chance winning if they try to trick their opponent and essentially rely on a gimmick rather than play a straight up macro game. - A depressing thought - also for Terran
On August 12 2014 01:29 Green_25 wrote: Personally think mines are too strong. Would've preferred for Terran to get buffed in some other way. To effectively engage bio you need to close distance 9/10, when mines are this powerful thats almost impossible.
Not basing this of stats though, just playing the game and watching top terrans, so maybe my opinion isn't relevant
What in the world is Protoss going to do with their range 9 collosus and range 9 psistorms against those terrifying range 5 widow mines? That widow mine killed a zealot and splashed 2 more units while they charged into the enemy. Such terrible game ending damage, might as well gg!
Whats that? Micro? Splitting Units? What do these strange words mean?
If you take into account the speed and pathing of protoss deathballs, reactionary splitting is not an option.
Preemptive splitting can work, but there is a reason it is called the deathball: Because splitting it up makes it significantly weaker.
Or just put observer infront and a-move your colossus when you see mines? Even stalkers work... you don't need to split...
As a player who plays ONLY templar openings I want to point out, that killing WM with storm does not work as someone may think. This is a note to that simple minded person who asked what will Protoss do with their 9 range storm. You need 2 storms and Terran has to forget his mines there for 5 seconds. Yeah, it does not happen on my level, what are the odds this will happen on higher level(I am diamond BTW). Against a Terran player of my skill who knows what to do(build mines, use chokes) I will lose 100 % of the time. Though I play unranked and for fun and colossus opening is boring as hell, so why the hell not Once in a week I leave 20 games, so I can play fair PvT I admit PvZ and PvP are boring as hell on that level, but you gotta do what you gotta do
Sending 1 zealot does not work, any decent Terran player kills this super fast, we can talk about sending 2 zeals who can put 1 mine on a time out. Yeah, well, hmm... On an open map you can prepare and separate your army a little(e.g. Merry Go Round) but on a more "chokier" map you are doomed. Though it is super fun and I am no pro, so I can live with the mine as it is
If a Terran player does not know that WM do not kill revealed hallucinations, you can use this, mwahahahahaha(and hope (s)he does not scan :D)
Sending 1 zealot does not work, any decent Terran player kills this super fast, we can talk about sending 2 zeals who can put 1 mine on a time out. Yeah, well, hmm... On an open map you can prepare and separate your army a little(e.g. Merry Go Round) but on a more "chokier" map you are doomed. Though it is super fun and I am no pro, so I can live with the mine as it is
For the record, us zerg players tried this excuse and it didn't work. Main reason being that for as much as we complained at it, in game we'd still box small groups zerglings and send them in to trigger mines.
Sending 1 zealot does not work, any decent Terran player kills this super fast, we can talk about sending 2 zeals who can put 1 mine on a time out. Yeah, well, hmm... On an open map you can prepare and separate your army a little(e.g. Merry Go Round) but on a more "chokier" map you are doomed. Though it is super fun and I am no pro, so I can live with the mine as it is
For the record, us zerg players tried this excuse and it didn't work. Main reason being that for as much as we complained at it, in game we'd still box small groups zerglings and send them in to trigger mines.
It is not an excuse per se, because I do not call for any change. I can always safely switch to colossus blink and play this and be bored to death(and do not care about mines at all). Believe me, I played this style too and I can take out a Terran player of my level ;-) PvT has always been my best MU. But I love the Templar opening from the day I read it here(it was for WoL back then).
Though, do you know what is the biggest funny part? You have to play a step by step cannon outpost game. Because observer is so fking easily killed each time >< and you do not have the gas for an Oracle(which detects farther I think) and zealots are worthless.(Edit: I even do not rebuild the MSC if the terran has some vikings, because WHO would go templar opening, right? It is just some mind game, I think some Terran players has to be pretty shocked when they see the first storm :D)
Sending 1 zealot does not work, any decent Terran player kills this super fast, we can talk about sending 2 zeals who can put 1 mine on a time out. Yeah, well, hmm... On an open map youa-moven prepare and separate your army a little(e.g. Merry Go Round) but on a more "chokier" map you are doomed. Though it is super fun and I am no pro, so I can live with the mine as it is
For the record, us zerg players tried this excuse and it didn't work. Main reason being that for as much as we complained at it, in game we'd still box small groups zerglings and send them in to trigger mines.
Not the same though, lings are faster and one ling who dies to a mine is only 25 mins. Zealot is 100 mins, making the mine already nearly pay for itself. Instead you can just a-move the mines with longer range units and lose nothing... why are people even talking about splitting against mines as toss??
Sending 1 zealot does not work, any decent Terran player kills this super fast, we can talk about sending 2 zeals who can put 1 mine on a time out. Yeah, well, hmm... On an open map youa-moven prepare and separate your army a little(e.g. Merry Go Round) but on a more "chokier" map you are doomed. Though it is super fun and I am no pro, so I can live with the mine as it is
For the record, us zerg players tried this excuse and it didn't work. Main reason being that for as much as we complained at it, in game we'd still box small groups zerglings and send them in to trigger mines.
Not the same though, lings are faster and one ling who dies to a mine is only 25 mins. Zealot is 100 mins, making the mine already nearly pay for itself. Instead you can just a-move the mines with longer range units and lose nothing... why are people even talking about splitting against mines as toss??
You split to reduce the damage? Seems obvious enough. I'm sure that if terran players can split 50 marines in 10 groups in 2 seconds that protoss players can eventually learn similar techniques. They might need to get used to it more though.
Keep in mind that it really took Zergs several months before they really had anti-mine micro worked out. In fact, that is exactly why we are in this situation right now - mines initially looked too powerful, but once everyone worked things out it wasn't so bad.
Keep in mind that mines are now even stronger in TvP. I really do not think we will see the return of the Templar opening in HotS(oh, how I want to be wrong!). PvT has a stable and safe macro opening, so Blizzard does not have to do anything ;-) Hmm, I am a little worried after todays games where maru used tanks, because, frankly, colossus blink is a little bit armor heavy opening :D But that is Maru, he is like sOs - there should be warning - Do no try this at home! :-)
Sending 1 zealot does not work, any decent Terran player kills this super fast, we can talk about sending 2 zeals who can put 1 mine on a time out. Yeah, well, hmm... On an open map youa-moven prepare and separate your army a little(e.g. Merry Go Round) but on a more "chokier" map you are doomed. Though it is super fun and I am no pro, so I can live with the mine as it is
For the record, us zerg players tried this excuse and it didn't work. Main reason being that for as much as we complained at it, in game we'd still box small groups zerglings and send them in to trigger mines.
Not the same though, lings are faster and one ling who dies to a mine is only 25 mins. Zealot is 100 mins, making the mine already nearly pay for itself. Instead you can just a-move the mines with longer range units and lose nothing... why are people even talking about splitting against mines as toss??
You split to reduce the damage? Seems obvious enough. I'm sure that if terran players can split 50 marines in 10 groups in 2 seconds that protoss players can eventually learn similar techniques. They might need to get used to it more though.
Or, again, just a-move them with lasers and stop trying to be fancy. If the terran player puts mines under his infantry's feet he will die to splash damage instantly, you could just position your zealots in a preconcave and charge in, then laugh at all the friendly fire.
If the terran puts mines infront of the army you pick them off with ranged units. There is literally no point in splitting in either case.
If you open ht vs an equal skill terran and he gets mines, you are dead even if you have the micro of god.
Sending 1 zealot does not work, any decent Terran player kills this super fast, we can talk about sending 2 zeals who can put 1 mine on a time out. Yeah, well, hmm... On an open map youa-moven prepare and separate your army a little(e.g. Merry Go Round) but on a more "chokier" map you are doomed. Though it is super fun and I am no pro, so I can live with the mine as it is
For the record, us zerg players tried this excuse and it didn't work. Main reason being that for as much as we complained at it, in game we'd still box small groups zerglings and send them in to trigger mines.
Not the same though, lings are faster and one ling who dies to a mine is only 25 mins. Zealot is 100 mins, making the mine already nearly pay for itself. Instead you can just a-move the mines with longer range units and lose nothing... why are people even talking about splitting against mines as toss??
You split to reduce the damage? Seems obvious enough. I'm sure that if terran players can split 50 marines in 10 groups in 2 seconds that protoss players can eventually learn similar techniques. They might need to get used to it more though.
If you open ht vs an equal skill terran and he gets mines, you are dead even if you have the micro of god.
because then T would have the micro of god aswell :D
On August 12 2014 01:29 Green_25 wrote: Personally think mines are too strong. Would've preferred for Terran to get buffed in some other way. To effectively engage bio you need to close distance 9/10, when mines are this powerful thats almost impossible.
Not basing this of stats though, just playing the game and watching top terrans, so maybe my opinion isn't relevant
What in the world is Protoss going to do with their range 9 collosus and range 9 psistorms against those terrifying range 5 widow mines? That widow mine killed a zealot and splashed 2 more units while they charged into the enemy. Such terrible game ending damage, might as well gg!
Whats that? Micro? Splitting Units? What do these strange words mean?
If you take into account the speed and pathing of protoss deathballs, reactionary splitting is not an option.
Preemptive splitting can work, but there is a reason it is called the deathball: Because splitting it up makes it significantly weaker.
Or just put observer infront and a-move your colossus when you see mines? Even stalkers work... you don't need to split...
Most Terrans will scan to make sure EMPs can land and not die to storms. Observers will most likely be sniped in the process
Biggest problem for Protoss is detection tbh, you need like 10 observers with your army. I usually just turtle with cannons PvT (or early game all-ins). Fighting out on the map against mines is suicide it feels like
On August 11 2014 20:04 jojos11 wrote: good job david kim.keep listening to gold league whiners,maybe the game will officially died soon
User was warned for this post
This is the expected and desired outcome of the balance patch.
Balance, for many of us, means reasonable representation of all three races in tournament play, and as tournament winners.
Win rates only express the rate of change of balance. If Terrans are winning more, that means that more of them are getting deeper into tournaments.
That would be a problem if terrans were already at 1/3rd or greater representation, but they are not. Terrans have extremely poor representation in high level play, so this increase in win rates is only evidence that things are evening out.
There is no way Code S should be 3 Terrans and 15+ Protoss. The 10% win rate differential you are crying about is nothing more than than the weaker Protoss players dropping out to make room for the top few Terran players who were forced out due to the previous state of the game.
You can start to whine once both races constitute aprox 1/3rd of the competetive player base. For now, a skewed PvT winrate is good.
I don't know if that's true. In the simulations topic some pages ago it seemed to be the case that win rates at the top level reflect the balance and that they are not just an indication of changing balance.
3 out of 4 winners are terran, 2 out of 4 finals were TvT
You dont build a roof for a house and then try to build the structure under it... The top down design preference by blizz is what leads to these balance issues.
In the past, people put something together, and then asked themselves what else can be put in.
In designing SC2 for "the highest levels of play", the game is more unstable because the process of designing from the bottom up has a feedback loop in which you can build a basic concept (or game), and then say to yourself "good, now that everything feels balanced, let's put this extra piece in and see how it works out".
Bottom up design would necessarily start with T1 units and comprehensive testing of those, add in T2 units and thoroughly understand how that changes, and then T3, T4, etc.
Widow MInes, among other things, are a marker identifying flawed methodology due to their Top down approach when creating game balance. As David Kim said, Widow Mines are "Core" in TvZ and TvP, yet they're often useless beyond some early game harass in TvP, and they're as much of a sink in the gas resource as zerg making banes in TvZ, if the zerg is playing well (bait, overseer + snipe, etc). Now, how could a unit which isn't added into your gameplay until you shell out 40 dollars, be "core" to your army and thus your army is underpowered or imbalanced without it?
Flawed design principles.
There hasn't been any balance patch for WoL version of sc2 since HOTS (the money maker) came out.
I am curious about creep spread and caster units in HotS. I know the current system is pretty great as it is but this is mainly an idea. I've heard a lot of talk about how as soon as any army steps onto creep they die, and as soon as zerg gets off of creep you might as well turn back because you're not catching those marines or blink stalkers. The game turns into king of the hill mentality against tumors which I'm sure everyone loves to play but it inhibits both sides attacking.
What if creep tumor creep spreading was slowed (increase in cooldown or decrease in how fast it spreads via tumors. Maybe even an energy increase on the cost to place the initial tumors) and in its place an ability was added to one of the zerg caster units (overseers/vipers/infestors) where they could shoot creep (not splatter it underneath them like overlords do) in small radius for a short amount of time (10 in game seconds or so) so lings/roach/hydra can get to units but this ability can't be used to stop building for long periods of time.
Pros: Less creep wars of one side being heavily favored. Creep spread moves to a more active role and allows for offensive operations. If someone is sitting outside your creep with siege tanks you can actually engage into it rather than waiting for them to move onto creep (if you keep your caster alive.)
Middle Ground: Ground play becomes more active in attacking/harassing. Have to focus heavily on keeping casters alive (already a common core identify)
Cons: Major shift in how the game is played. Adds another terrain changing ability which everyone loves force fields. Baneling busts might be very difficult to stop with this unless you have forcefields or adequate splash damage. Could turn early roach pushes into a nightmare for lower rank players if ability is placed on overseer. Creep spread is inhibited unless you build a specific unit or simply switch to overlords (which increases risk involved when being attacked)
Sending 1 zealot does not work, any decent Terran player kills this super fast, we can talk about sending 2 zeals who can put 1 mine on a time out. Yeah, well, hmm... On an open map youa-moven prepare and separate your army a little(e.g. Merry Go Round) but on a more "chokier" map you are doomed. Though it is super fun and I am no pro, so I can live with the mine as it is
For the record, us zerg players tried this excuse and it didn't work. Main reason being that for as much as we complained at it, in game we'd still box small groups zerglings and send them in to trigger mines.
Not the same though, lings are faster and one ling who dies to a mine is only 25 mins. Zealot is 100 mins, making the mine already nearly pay for itself. Instead you can just a-move the mines with longer range units and lose nothing... why are people even talking about splitting against mines as toss??
You split to reduce the damage? Seems obvious enough. I'm sure that if terran players can split 50 marines in 10 groups in 2 seconds that protoss players can eventually learn similar techniques. They might need to get used to it more though.
Splitting against mines? Well, pre-splitting maybe, but infight splitting against Widow Mines is kinda impossible.
I still hate the overall design of the mine. It's just a stupid unit imo. I would have loved to see other buffs for Terran.
On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote: Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all.
Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25)
On August 12 2014 01:29 Green_25 wrote: Personally think mines are too strong. Would've preferred for Terran to get buffed in some other way. To effectively engage bio you need to close distance 9/10, when mines are this powerful thats almost impossible.
Not basing this of stats though, just playing the game and watching top terrans, so maybe my opinion isn't relevant
What in the world is Protoss going to do with their range 9 collosus and range 9 psistorms against those terrifying range 5 widow mines? That widow mine killed a zealot and splashed 2 more units while they charged into the enemy. Such terrible game ending damage, might as well gg!
Whats that? Micro? Splitting Units? What do these strange words mean?
Would putting charge on manual cast help with this? (I don't play protoss)
I also thought about that. Zealots clump a lot when they charge which makes any attempt of splitting vs WM almost impossible. Even pre-splitting becomes irrelevant as Zealots charge on top of each other and stack again. On the other hand there would not be any possibility for friendly fire splash form WM also slow zealots are not the best against Terran Bio so idk...
EPT
Once in a week I leave 20 games, so I can play fair PvT ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DmHxcyL.jpg)
