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On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25)
Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest.
6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT.
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On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT.
Every race gets a chance to be overpowered. Toss was strong for 6 months. Now we get 6 months of Patch Terrans. Maybe Zerg will be randomly buffed into IMBA status after that. Blizzard can't "balance" a game with 3 unique factions. The best they can do is make patches that change the winning race for variety every once in awhile. It's really too bad. This game would be a work of art if it could be balanced. But that probably isn't possible.
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On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT.
Haha, yeah that's true  Looks like FlaSh became a monster in TvP after the patch, although I'm not saying that it's due to patch - he was progressively playing better and better for some time now 
Actually I had a feeling that Terrans was playing better just before the patch, wonder if that was true and could be seen in statistics.
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On August 13 2014 01:26 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT. Every race gets a chance to be overpowered. Toss was strong for 6 months. Now we get 6 months of Patch Terrans. Maybe Zerg will be randomly buffed into IMBA status after that. Blizzard can't "balance" a game with 3 unique factions. The best they can do is make patches that change the winning race for variety every once in awhile. It's really too bad. This game would be a work of art if it could be balanced. But that probably isn't possible.
Who would you consider a patch terran?
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On August 13 2014 03:04 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 01:26 Salient wrote:On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT. Every race gets a chance to be overpowered. Toss was strong for 6 months. Now we get 6 months of Patch Terrans. Maybe Zerg will be randomly buffed into IMBA status after that. Blizzard can't "balance" a game with 3 unique factions. The best they can do is make patches that change the winning race for variety every once in awhile. It's really too bad. This game would be a work of art if it could be balanced. But that probably isn't possible. Who would you consider a patch terran?
Any foreign Terran that beats a Korean between now and the next Terran nerf (provided said nerf causes Terrans to lose more) will be a patch Terran. So they will be few and far between.
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On August 13 2014 01:26 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT. Every race gets a chance to be overpowered. Toss was strong for 6 months. Now we get 6 months of Patch Terrans. Maybe Zerg will be randomly buffed into IMBA status after that. Blizzard can't "balance" a game with 3 unique factions. The best they can do is make patches that change the winning race for variety every once in awhile. It's really too bad. This game would be a work of art if it could be balanced. But that probably isn't possible.
lol
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Patch Terran lol? The only buff was the widow mine and Flash didn't even use it today. At least not in the 6 games I saw
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On August 13 2014 03:43 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 01:26 Salient wrote:On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT. Every race gets a chance to be overpowered. Toss was strong for 6 months. Now we get 6 months of Patch Terrans. Maybe Zerg will be randomly buffed into IMBA status after that. Blizzard can't "balance" a game with 3 unique factions. The best they can do is make patches that change the winning race for variety every once in awhile. It's really too bad. This game would be a work of art if it could be balanced. But that probably isn't possible. lol
Nice response, Flash gets second place in a qualifier (a protoss got first) and he gets called a patch terran. I would say a ''lol'' is too considerate.
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On August 13 2014 03:44 TurboMaN wrote:
Patch Terran lol? The only buff was the widow mine and Flash didn't even use it today. At least not in the 6 games I saw
bu-BUT...THE THREAT of the widow mine is just too much and we cant open HT anymore! We have to get detection, now, and, stuff....to deal with all these patch terrans, like, the greatest sc player of all time....ya
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Lol Flash is not a patch Terran.
Some people...
We will never really know if the game is "balanced." There are way too many variables. We can only hope to have a game that seems fair and where your choice of race doesn't statistically mean that you will win more or less often in the long run.
The only way we can really tell if the game is balanced is if they stop patching it for long enough that the statistics actually matter.
New strategies will emerge from time to time and skew the balance in favor of one race. In BW this was the case and it took innovative players like Bisu and Savior to skew them back. Oov famously said that without imbalance, you would never have gotten players like Bisu, whose style was created out of necessity to find a solution to beat Zerg.
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On August 13 2014 03:44 TurboMaN wrote:
Patch Terran lol? The only buff was the widow mine and Flash didn't even use it today. At least not in the 6 games I saw
I know you are joking, but a unit doesn't have to be built to impact a matchup. The oracle doesn't play a large role in every PvT, but Terran is still forced into uneconomic openers every game based purely on the possibility one might be built.
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On August 13 2014 03:04 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 01:26 Salient wrote:On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT. Every race gets a chance to be overpowered. Toss was strong for 6 months. Now we get 6 months of Patch Terrans. Maybe Zerg will be randomly buffed into IMBA status after that. Blizzard can't "balance" a game with 3 unique factions. The best they can do is make patches that change the winning race for variety every once in awhile. It's really too bad. This game would be a work of art if it could be balanced. But that probably isn't possible. Who would you consider a patch terran?
There are a lot of guys who were struggling in Code A a month ago, who now easily 2-0 GSL, MLG, and IEM champions. A lot of these Terrans have very few tournament wins in SC2. Now, they seem just as good as guys like Taeja and Maru who have been consistently good. Maybe it's just a matter of the meta being upset and unstable. Maybe not. Time will tell. But history pretty clearly shows that Blizzard's patches never balance the game. You go from "GomTvT to "Patch Zergs" to Hellbat Dropping, WM abusing early HoTs Terran, to the last six months of Protoss dominance . . . do you really think the new patch is going to bring harmony to the universe? I would be pleasantly surprised if it were so. It's too bad in a way because it takes away from the player's accomplishments. It's like how Ryung called IMBA IMBA IMBA when he lost to some Zerg during the Broodlord Infestor period (Sniper?). Likewise, people will say that someone like Classic only won the GSL because Toss was favored at that time, and they will say a similar thing about Flash or Reality or Liquid Bunny winning tournaments now. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and MC are rare in that they won big tournaments when their race was considered to be disadvantaged.
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On August 13 2014 04:12 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 03:04 johnbongham wrote:On August 13 2014 01:26 Salient wrote:On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT. Every race gets a chance to be overpowered. Toss was strong for 6 months. Now we get 6 months of Patch Terrans. Maybe Zerg will be randomly buffed into IMBA status after that. Blizzard can't "balance" a game with 3 unique factions. The best they can do is make patches that change the winning race for variety every once in awhile. It's really too bad. This game would be a work of art if it could be balanced. But that probably isn't possible. Who would you consider a patch terran? There are a lot of guys who were struggling in Code A a month ago, who now easily 2-0 GSL, MLG, and IEM champions. A lot of these Terrans have very few tournament wins in SC2. Now, they seem just as good as guys like Taeja and Maru who have been consistently good. Maybe it's just a matter of the meta being upset and unstable. Maybe not. Time will tell. But history pretty clearly shows that Blizzard's patches never balance the game. You go from "GomTvT to "Patch Zergs" to Hellbat Dropping, WM abusing early HoTs Terran, to the last six months of Protoss dominance . . . do you really think the new patch is going to bring harmony to the universe? I would be pleasantly surprised if it were so. It's too bad in a way because it takes away from the player's accomplishments. It's like how Ryung called IMBA IMBA IMBA when he lost to some Zerg during the Broodlord Infestor period (Sniper?). Likewise, people will say that someone like Classic only won the GSL because Toss was favored at that time, and they will say a similar thing about Flash or Reality or Liquid Bunny winning tournaments now. Guys like Taeja and MC are rare in that they won big tournaments when their race was considered to be disadvantaged.
Who? I asked for names.
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On August 13 2014 04:16 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 04:12 Salient wrote:On August 13 2014 03:04 johnbongham wrote:On August 13 2014 01:26 Salient wrote:On August 13 2014 00:31 r691175002 wrote:On August 12 2014 23:56 egrimm wrote:On August 12 2014 19:49 FanaticCZ wrote:
Wheres that guy that complained about top terrans beating top protosses? Zest 2:0 Flash, herO 2:1 TY so far today. Id say theres no problem at all. Not trying to defend anyone, I still think we have to wait to see how the meta will develop in TvP, however combined winrates for TvP in Korean and Taiwan Qualifier & Asian Final Qualifier are 60% (T:15 P:10 All:25) Ironically, the winrates would have gone the other way if flash had won against Zest. 6 of those Terran wins are Flash slugging it through the losers bracket - a place he only went to after losing a PvT. Every race gets a chance to be overpowered. Toss was strong for 6 months. Now we get 6 months of Patch Terrans. Maybe Zerg will be randomly buffed into IMBA status after that. Blizzard can't "balance" a game with 3 unique factions. The best they can do is make patches that change the winning race for variety every once in awhile. It's really too bad. This game would be a work of art if it could be balanced. But that probably isn't possible. Who would you consider a patch terran? There are a lot of guys who were struggling in Code A a month ago, who now easily 2-0 GSL, MLG, and IEM champions. A lot of these Terrans have very few tournament wins in SC2. Now, they seem just as good as guys like Taeja and Maru who have been consistently good. Maybe it's just a matter of the meta being upset and unstable. Maybe not. Time will tell. But history pretty clearly shows that Blizzard's patches never balance the game. You go from "GomTvT to "Patch Zergs" to Hellbat Dropping, WM abusing early HoTs Terran, to the last six months of Protoss dominance . . . do you really think the new patch is going to bring harmony to the universe? I would be pleasantly surprised if it were so. It's too bad in a way because it takes away from the player's accomplishments. It's like how Ryung called IMBA IMBA IMBA when he lost to some Zerg during the Broodlord Infestor period (Sniper?). Likewise, people will say that someone like Classic only won the GSL because Toss was favored at that time, and they will say a similar thing about Flash or Reality or Liquid Bunny winning tournaments now. Guys like Taeja and MC are rare in that they won big tournaments when their race was considered to be disadvantaged. Who? I asked for names.
Obviously calling Flash a patch terran.
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How can u be a patch Terran in TvT? What has been patched apart from the Widow mine which is almost never used in TvT?
Where is your logic?
Some ppl write like Terran has been insanely buffed? I don't get it.
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I don't usually post in this section of here forums, but Flash with his Golden Mouse begs to differ. He's not a patch Terran.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
Well Flash and TY were pretty much the best players in PL for a long time before they started to play good in GSL or IEM(in this case). As much as I do like Protoss, they were always my pick in Liquibets and I wondered why the hell they lost... So far I haven't seen any problematic games(except PvT is boring as hell  ).
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On August 13 2014 04:31 Reaper9 wrote:
I don't usually post in this section of here forums, but Flash with his Golden Mouse begs to differ. He's not a patch Terran.
Did he win that in SC2? If not, it's just as irrelevant as Grubby's victories in WC3. Anyway, I'm not saying Flash or TY is a Patch Terran. Sorry and Reality might be. The goal of the patch was to buff Terrans. I would say it succeeded. Blizzard can dial it back if it becomes apparent that they went overboard. But, even then, I really wonder if it is even theoretically possible to balance a game with 3 distinct factions when that game has professional teams and coaches trying to solve it. Even Chess isn't perfectly balanced, and both players have the exact same pieces. At the higher levels, Black typically hopes for a tie game and white plays for a win, and that's in a game with identical pieces and only a 1 tempo difference. I'm pretty confident that it is actually impossible to balance SC2.
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Sorry the patch T who beat Bbyong, Fantasy and Cure. Wow.
Reality who beat Hush and ended at 2-3 against Trap who was kindof a nobody before the MLG.
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On August 13 2014 04:49 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 04:31 Reaper9 wrote:
I don't usually post in this section of here forums, but Flash with his Golden Mouse begs to differ. He's not a patch Terran. Did he win that in SC2? If not, it's just as irrelevant as Grubby's victories in WC3. Anyway, I'm not saying Flash or TY is a Patch Terran. Sorry and Reality might be. The goal of the patch was to buff Terrans. I would say it succeeded. Blizzard can dial it back if it becomes apparent that they went overboard. But, even then, I really wonder if it is even theoretically possible to balance a game with 3 distinct factions when that game has professional teams and coaches trying to solve it. Even Chess isn't perfectly balanced, and both players have the exact same pieces. At the higher levels, Black typically hopes for a tie game and white plays for a win, and that's in a game with identical pieces and only a 1 tempo difference. I'm pretty confident that it is actually impossible to balance SC2.
Depends on how restrictive you define balance. ;-)
As far as you ask me, the game has been balanced (or close to) in the last 3years (end WoL TvZ being the exception, when the winrates really went down the toilet). The winrates were rarely outside of a 45-55 window at the highest level and all races have shown that they can win tournaments in those periods of time. That's good enough for me to call the game fair.
That does however not imply that there cannot be changes and improvements.
A superrestrictive 50:50 criterium will obviously never be fullfilled in a game with such complexity.
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EPT
