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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 10 2014 20:00 Grumbels wrote: But then you should also be able to cast it on missile turrets maybe? (not sure I like the idea) Turrets are fine i think, i just want less BO poker and coinflips in the game. | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
Radious should be big enaugh to cover all main base. This way it wont affect the "normal" builds but you automatically get rid of all proxies, which is where the most BO poker ussualy happens. | ||
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FanaticCZ
Czech Republic287 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 10 2014 20:17 Svizcy wrote: Easies way to have less BO poker is for them to implement a build radious arround, Nexus, CC and Hatchery. That way all other buildings need to be build in some radious arroud those main buildings. Radious should be big enaugh to cover all main base. This way it wont affect the "normal" builds but you automatically get rid of all proxies, which is where the most BO poker ussualy happens. We C&C now. I believe we can have more elegant solutions in SC. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On August 10 2014 00:45 TheDwf wrote: Bogus with the "dumb freewin mechanic": MMA experimenting the completely risk-free aspect of the "proxy rax autowin": I browsed your 30 pages of terran balance complain and I am sure to remember you complained about 2 base protoss all-ins and especially blink all-in there. Should I have posted 2 vods of terrans holding blink all-in? What would it have change about the fact that it was way easier to execute than to hold and that it is/was a dumb win mechanic. The 2 linked vods: Both poorly executed from the terrans. MMA went for 2nd cc (greed) instead of focusinig on defense. He could have built a wall of barracks instead for his money after he saw 20 zerglings passing by. What else than baneling bust did he expect? The double depot wall in the other vod is one of the most noobish things I have seen in a pro-match. I think today's proxy rax play is way more precice and pre-emptive. Everything is somehow stoppable of course. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On August 10 2014 20:09 Morbidius wrote: Turrets are fine i think, i just want less BO poker and coinflips in the game. I suggested it because an alpha concept for terran was completely salvageable bases. Production buildings can lift off, but others, including bunkers, supply depots and sensor towers, could be salvaged (I don't think I have the details exactly right). Bunker salvage is what survived of the concept, probably because being able to salvage turrets for free is broken vs mutalisks. I think if it was 75% return and 25 energy on the OC it could be more acceptable, but I guess it's pointless to add such abilities to te OC when mules & scans are already so useful. | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
On August 10 2014 20:21 Morbidius wrote: We C&C now. I believe we can have more elegant solutions in SC. Other games have/had good solutions to some problems aswell. C&C or not, this would solve proxy problems, same time it would solve scouting problems that we face. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 10 2014 20:22 LSN wrote: I browsed your 30 pages of terran balance complain and I am sure to remember you complained about 2 base protoss all-ins and especially blink all-in there. I fail to see how what I wrote in the Pokercraft section applies to 2 rax in TvZ. Should I have posted 2 vods of terrans holding blink all-in? What would it have change about the fact that it was way easier to execute than to hold and that it is/was a dumb win mechanic. You would better start with how it is even pertinent to compare 2 rax in TvZ with Blink attacks in TvP before the various MSC nerfs; otherwise I would be inclined to think that, as usual, you don't know what you're talking about. You also don't give any argument about why you think 2 rax are "way easier" to perform than to defend. The 2 linked vods: Both poorly executed from the terrans. MMA went for 2nd cc (greed) instead of focusinig on defense. He could have built a wall of barracks instead for his money after he saw 20 zerglings passing by. What else than baneling bust did he expect? The double depot wall in the other vod is one of the most noobish things I have seen in a pro-match. I think today's proxy rax play is way more precice and pre-emptive. The 2 linked VODs I posted are enough to refute your nonsense about proxy 2 rax being "autowin" or "just fly the buildings and proceed in a decent position". Not having your production at home and having your Hellions delayed for quite some time does make Terran vulnerable to counter-bane busts. Even against gasless openings (= no immediate counter-attack threat), you simply risk ending up behind if Zerg defends well. Out of the last 181 TvZ at Korean level (for the Terran side) I saw, proxy 2 rax was used 16 times; actually less than rax 11 proxy Reapers which carry absolutely zero game-ending threat at high level. 16/181 = 8,8%; care to explain us why a "dumb autowin mechanic" is used less than 10% of the time, with many top Koreans never bothering to play it at all in TvZ? Too bad there is not a database taking an inventory of the amount of Blink builds in the PvT Blink days, or the amount of broods/infests transitions in 3+ bases ZvX at the end of WoL. Those are the two closest things we had to a "dumb autowin mechanic," and trust me they were not played only 8,8% of the time. | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
It was completely his mistake NOT having the production (and part of the walloff) at home, he wasn't even producing marines from them and went on spamming bunkers everywhere. It's not about having hellions out or not on time or not. Look at how how bunny play who would simply wall off with the 2 rax and complete with a ebay and go on play with a base ahead and safe from counter attacks. of all the "one game example to rule it all" evidence, at least pick better ones. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 10 2014 23:55 ETisME wrote: are you seriously saying MMA did not play poorly there? I made absolutely zero comment about MMA's play, glad you still manage to make 7 lines out of it. | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On August 11 2014 00:00 TheDwf wrote: I made absolutely zero comment about MMA's play, glad you still manage to make 7 lines out of it. "The 2 linked VODs I posted are enough to refute your nonsense about proxy 2 rax being "autowin" or "just fly the buildings and proceed in a decent position". Not having your production at home and having your Hellions delayed for quite some time does make Terran vulnerable to counter-bane busts. Even against gasless openings (= no immediate counter-attack threat), you simply risk ending up behind if Zerg defends well." so unless you didn't link that video, you obviously have made a note about the VODs. one of which is MMA play. one of which is MMA not flying his barracks to his base. one of which is because of greedy triple CC, he didn't have his hellions out on time. or are all these just irrelevant to your linked VODs? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2014 00:59 ETisME wrote: "The 2 linked VODs I posted are enough to refute your nonsense about proxy 2 rax being "autowin" or "just fly the buildings and proceed in a decent position". Not having your production at home and having your Hellions delayed for quite some time does make Terran vulnerable to counter-bane busts. Even against gasless openings (= no immediate counter-attack threat), you simply risk ending up behind if Zerg defends well." so unless you didn't link that video, you obviously have made a note about the VODs. one of which is MMA play. one of which is MMA not flying his barracks to his base. one of which is because of greedy triple CC, he didn't have his hellions out on time. or are all these just irrelevant to your linked VODs? Whaaat. I linked the MMA vs Revival VOD as it's one example of Terran losing because he doesn't have production at home, and LSN seemed to be labouring under the delusion that 2 rax was "ez, just lift and you're always OK"— well no, you have to make calls, choose how much you want to invest into a contain at Zerg's natural, judge in advance when to lift the rax so you have enough time to get Marines out at home/prepare your transition when the contain is broken, etc. End of story. I made no comment about MMA's play = I didn't say whether his play was good, bad, average, terrible or brilliant. Geez. He didn't die because "greedy triple CC," he made a fact before even expanding (= the safe road, but doesn't matter if it's mistimed) and was barely starting the second CC when Revival hit. He lost because he let a Speedlings raid pass while having no production at home. That's all. | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
If going factory is the safe road, then what is bunny's faster expo with a proper wall off with rax and ebay? Also of all people, you should know he is not meaning it literally. You yourself pretty much lay out your whole zvpraft article and style lots of your arguments like that. You even said it's easy for zerg to replace 20 drones with just one round of production, completely ignoring the new drones wont cover the cost for a while and you lose 20larva in the progress. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 11 2014 02:26 ETisME wrote: He died because he didn't even lift off his barracks that were not producing any units and had to wall off with depots at home. If going factory is the safe road, then what is bunny's faster expo with a proper wall off with rax and ebay? Also of all people, you should know he is not meaning it literally. You yourself pretty much lay out your whole zvpraft article and style lots of your arguments like that. You even said it's easy for zerg to replace 20 drones with just one round of production, completely ignoring the new drones wont cover the cost for a while and you lose 20larva in the progress. Wasn't that Snute who lost like 25 drones to an hellion pressure from Major on deadwing and still won in a macro game ? | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On August 11 2014 02:37 Faust852 wrote: Wasn't that Snute who lost like 25 drones to an hellion pressure from Major on deadwing and still won in a macro game ? Yes it does happen, I didn't say it's impossible. Just less often than terran defending protoss blink all in in last season map pool  | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 11 2014 02:45 ETisME wrote: Yes it does happen, I didn't say it's impossible. Just less often than terran defending protoss blink all in in last season map pool Last mappool season was already nerfed quite hard for Blink. + MSC nerf too. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On August 11 2014 02:57 Faust852 wrote: Last mappool season was already nerfed quite hard for Blink. + MSC nerf too. and mines significantly buffed which were the main reason why blink all ins were not prevalent in the beginning of hots | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 11 2014 03:11 Mojito99 wrote: and mines significantly buffed which were the main reason why blink all ins were not prevalent in the beginning of hots Blink was prevalent because of Yeonsu or Heavy Rain kind of maps, not only because of the WMs. The nerf ofc had an impact but it was really how blink friendly maps were 3 seasons ago. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2014 02:26 ETisME wrote: He died because he didn't even lift off his barracks that were not producing any units and had to wall off with depots at home. No, the decision to build his third depot as part of the wall was taken before. MMA lost because he didn't complete his wall at Revival's natural with one depot to prevent the ling flood. If going factory is the safe road, then what is bunny's faster expo with a proper wall off with rax and ebay? It's safe too but this option depends on Zerg's build, the layout of the natural (if you can close it with 3 buildings) and the distance between the proxy location and the front of the natural. Also of all people, you should know he is not meaning it literally. You yourself pretty much lay out your whole zvpraft article and style lots of your arguments like that. Yeah, TL would have totally decided to put Welcome to ZParcraft II in frontpage if the content had been as garbage as LSN's posts. At any rate, regardless of the true intent of his message—given the poster I would barely be surprised if he meant it literally—my answer still addresses the spirit of his message, i.e. proxy 2 rax being uncounterable/easy/too safe. You even said it's easy for zerg to replace 20 drones with just one round of production, completely ignoring the new drones wont cover the cost for a while and you lose 20larva in the progress Wasn't it 30, if not 70? Lol. You're hilarious. Quoting one of the ZParcraft II notes regarding this point: Scarlett vs Bomber, Whirlwind, WCS Global Finals is another example of this concept: Scarlett has not the usual defences in place when Bomber raids his Hellions in the natural. As a result, 15 Drones die, but larvae forgive: Zerg replenishes the fallen workers at once, still hits the 70 benchmark at 10' and lives to tell the tale. 1. Watch the link and tell me that this is not what happened? 2. Did I say it costed 0 larva? Nope. Did I say Zerg suffered 0 damage from the move? Nope. But of course such details don't bother you. The larva mechanic does make Zerg forgiving in this situation (= no imminent timing to capitalize on the worker replenishment) in TvZ. I'm absolutely sorry that stating this mere truth comes as a shock to you. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On August 11 2014 03:29 Faust852 wrote: Blink was prevalent because of Yeonsu or Heavy Rain kind of maps, not only because of the WMs. The nerf ofc had an impact but it was really how blink friendly maps were 3 seasons ago. well not according to downfalls analysis. He made a good argument for how maps before the yeonsu mappol would have encouraged blink as well. | ||
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