He's also right in that it isn't always possible to probe scout whether Terran got gas or not, and doubly so on if they got a factory. A lot of Terrans tend to wall off completely early, which, when combined with good building placement, prevents Protoss from probe scouting a factory (or even gas if they wall off early enough or Protoss is unlucky on a 3/4 player map). The next reliable opportunity to scout after that is using a hallucination, which won't hit for at least a couple more minutes, which is too late since the drop will likely either be loading up or already on the way, so instead Protoss has to be proactive and pay attention to their mineral lines and bases so that they can minimize damage from drops if need be.
I'm sorry ben but gaz first is always scoutable. because if you gaz first you won't wallin before since you put your facto before the 2nd supply depot. And the rax is late, so fewer marines. And who waall in in TvP anyway ? This is such a stupid thing to do. It helps against nothing and make you lose against stupid opening like 10gate.
On August 09 2014 05:52 DinoMight wrote: LOL. I like how anything anyone says is immediately considered whine and answered with counter whine.
I'm saying that you can't really scout the FIRST widow mine drop and you have to react quickly or lose a lot of workers. I'm not saying widow mines are imbalanced. I was just challenging some guy who said that you could scout it and know it's coming beforehand.
I don't have a problem with the balance of widow mine drops presently. Can we drop this?
True. But since you can blindly open robo every game and then you are fine against anything without falling behind, there's no need to know that a WM drop is coming.
I play Terran so I can't say i'm against the wm buff, but it also feels like it pushes the toss even further into the deathball, passive play style.
In terms of early aggression, the only thing that is remotely interesting to watch of Protoss is some form of macro oracle which I believe is still a good option. It would be rather great if that buff killed blink allins and superfast oracles and superfast DTs, though I doubt it. I guess Templar styles are more exciting than Colossus styles once they take off, but equally passive early and then both styles can attack. Just the execution of the one is more interesting.
What I am seeing more these days is Protoss going for super late upgrades. While seeing terran being on 3,3 protoss just barely got 1,1. What makes me feeling really disturbed about it is that protoss is still able to trade well. I don't know if this i meant to be as it is, but I think this shows some flaws in design/ballance of the protoss deathball.
On August 09 2014 23:09 _Epi_ wrote: What I am seeing more these days is Protoss going for super late upgrades. While seeing terran being on 3,3 protoss just barely got 1,1. What makes me feeling really disturbed about it is that protoss is still able to trade well. I don't know if this i meant to be as it is, but I think this shows some flaws in design/ballance of the protoss deathball.
Generally not true, i guess your reffereing to recent PvT games in ro32 on the GSL, code S. You have to keep in mind that possitioning of the army has the same importance as upgrades as well as the army suply, so it may give you a false sense of balance if you do not recognise the possitioning mistakes of one or other player beffore the engagement has happened.
Also, in the same games tosses more oftenly lost in the end than not, and when they won they werent really behind in upgrades that much. Yes their ground army upgrades were 1-1 vs terrans 3-3, however toss did upgraded air attack to +3 as well as got the phoenix range upgrade. So not as much total difference in upgrades as you might think.
Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
Bogus with the "dumb freewin mechanic":
MMA experimenting the completely risk-free aspect of the "proxy rax autowin":
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
Come on man, TY hid those proxies specifically so that Classic wouldn't see them. If people hid buildings in that location every game then people would scout that location. The other thing is that Classic went Nexus first, screwed up some of the micro with the Zealot and the probes and then foolishly decided to make the mothership core at the natural, promptly losing it. It wasn't just TY's build that gave him a "autowin" it was also Classic's greed and poor handling of the situation.
Proxy 2 rax feels a little too strong imo.... my first 10 games as terran I am consistently beating top KR GM zergs who completely outclass my zerg in previous games. You can drone scout, but that is really hit or miss, and half the time all it does is cost you 100 minerals and delay everything. 15 pool as an option would be ok if it was easier to hold off the terran around 10-14 minutes.
On August 10 2014 02:25 duckk wrote: Proxy 2 rax feels a little too strong imo.... my first 10 games as terran I am consistently beating top KR GM zergs who completely outclass my zerg in previous games. You can drone scout, but that is really hit or miss, and half the time all it does is cost you 100 minerals and delay everything. 15 pool as an option would be ok if it was easier to hold off the terran around 10-14 minutes.
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
Proxy 2 rax has always been ridiculous bullshit in TvZ. I'm not too concerned about it in TvP. But yeah . . . It's kind of luck - based bullshit against Zerg. Maybe even sillier than cannon rushing, which is also bullshit against Zerg.
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
Proxy 2 rax has always been ridiculous bullshit in TvZ. I'm not too concerned about it in TvP. But yeah . . . It's kind of luck - based bullshit against Zerg. Maybe even sillier than cannon rushing, which is also bullshit against Zerg.
Nah, it's a high intensity micro build from both side. And there are good counters. DwF linked some vod for instance. And some pro scout early directly the base (at 10) so they can put a pool before hatch, leading to a defwin. And almost every proxy rax are put a the same spot so it's not that coinflippy to scout.
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
Proxy 2 rax has always been ridiculous bullshit in TvZ. I'm not too concerned about it in TvP. But yeah . . . It's kind of luck - based bullshit against Zerg. Maybe even sillier than cannon rushing, which is also bullshit against Zerg.
Nah, it's a high intensity micro build from both side. And there are good counters. DwF linked some vod for instance. And some pro scout early directly the base (at 10) so they can put a pool before hatch, leading to a defwin. And almost every proxy rax are put a the same spot so it's not that coinflippy to scout.
It's a coinflip that comes before you can comfortably scout. So the gameplay is about how much you are willing to blindly sacrifice - nothing skillbased. Even more on big 4p maps. If you pool first and the Terran also scouts and insta-abandons the pressure it's basically even. The micro you are talking about is basic micro of any single TvZ engagment (and not even that since no mutas, mines, medivas and banes are around which all require extra control) which makes any TvZ that includes a combat more micro intense than 2rax.
It's neither needed for balance nor produces superior games. It's just a bullshit "easy way out" opion to prevent having to train the whole matchup for one side. And pretty anoying when you hit those players that openly admit that they 2rax every single TvZ "because they can. Bitch please."
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
Proxy 2 rax has always been ridiculous bullshit in TvZ. I'm not too concerned about it in TvP. But yeah . . . It's kind of luck - based bullshit against Zerg. Maybe even sillier than cannon rushing, which is also bullshit against Zerg.
Nah, it's a high intensity micro build from both side. And there are good counters. DwF linked some vod for instance. And some pro scout early directly the base (at 10) so they can put a pool before hatch, leading to a defwin. And almost every proxy rax are put a the same spot so it's not that coinflippy to scout.
It's a coinflip that comes before you can comfortably scout. So the gameplay is about how much you are willing to blindly sacrifice - nothing skillbased. Even more on big 4p maps. If you pool first and the Terran also scouts and insta-abandons the pressure it's basically even. The micro you are talking about is basic micro of any single TvZ engagment (and not even that since no mutas, mines, medivas and banes are around which all require extra control) which makes any TvZ that includes a combat more micro intense than 2rax.
It's neither needed for balance nor produces superior games. It's just a bullshit "easy way out" opion to prevent having to train the whole matchup for one side. And pretty anoying when you hit those players that openly admit that they 2rax every single TvZ "because they can. Bitch please."
Remove 2 rax and enjoy how greedy zerg will play on 4 players maps. And you can deal with it without even scouting tbh. You just need to learn how to deal with it.
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
Proxy 2 rax has always been ridiculous bullshit in TvZ. I'm not too concerned about it in TvP. But yeah . . . It's kind of luck - based bullshit against Zerg. Maybe even sillier than cannon rushing, which is also bullshit against Zerg.
Nah, it's a high intensity micro build from both side. And there are good counters. DwF linked some vod for instance. And some pro scout early directly the base (at 10) so they can put a pool before hatch, leading to a defwin. And almost every proxy rax are put a the same spot so it's not that coinflippy to scout.
It's a coinflip that comes before you can comfortably scout. So the gameplay is about how much you are willing to blindly sacrifice - nothing skillbased. Even more on big 4p maps. If you pool first and the Terran also scouts and insta-abandons the pressure it's basically even. The micro you are talking about is basic micro of any single TvZ engagment (and not even that since no mutas, mines, medivas and banes are around which all require extra control) which makes any TvZ that includes a combat more micro intense than 2rax.
It's neither needed for balance nor produces superior games. It's just a bullshit "easy way out" opion to prevent having to train the whole matchup for one side. And pretty anoying when you hit those players that openly admit that they 2rax every single TvZ "because they can. Bitch please."
Remove 2 rax and enjoy how greedy zerg will play on 4 players maps. And you can deal with it without even scouting tbh. You just need to learn how to deal with it.
16h/15p is the most economical a zerg can get with a two base opening according to some (old) testings (because of queens that you need a pool for - else you are larvastarved)). Thats what a lot of zergs do regardless of 2rax existing. If he goes later pool, just rejoice, the injects come too late and the build is worse. And those builds are not good against reaper anyways. 3h is bad against reaper macro builds. I dont see the problem.
On August 10 2014 00:32 LSN wrote: Proxy rax autowin game denial mechanics needs to get fixed tbh. It is far more dumb than any protoss 2 base all-in and happening all over the place.
I know this will bring terran whiners back to the table, but it has to be said. When a protoss does proxy gates he commits a pylon and the gates. A terran can even deal only some damage if it doesn't kill the opponent, fly back the buildings and get on in a decent position (only few commitment as doing some dmg and delaying the opponent is kinda ensured). The ranged units are way more effective and microable than any melee ever could be (when comparing it to other races early stuff). Not enough as is, it gets reinforced with bunkers which makes it a kind of no way to come back into the game thing for the opponent (ridiculous that bunkers are even sellable then in this situation).
A dumb freewin mechanic. Of course terrans would like to keep all their dumb stuff while whining all day about protoss. So I am happy to read all your flames that are now most certainly incoming. 8[
Proxy 2 rax has always been ridiculous bullshit in TvZ. I'm not too concerned about it in TvP. But yeah . . . It's kind of luck - based bullshit against Zerg. Maybe even sillier than cannon rushing, which is also bullshit against Zerg.
Nah, it's a high intensity micro build from both side. And there are good counters. DwF linked some vod for instance. And some pro scout early directly the base (at 10) so they can put a pool before hatch, leading to a defwin. And almost every proxy rax are put a the same spot so it's not that coinflippy to scout.
It's a coinflip that comes before you can comfortably scout. So the gameplay is about how much you are willing to blindly sacrifice - nothing skillbased. Even more on big 4p maps. If you pool first and the Terran also scouts and insta-abandons the pressure it's basically even. The micro you are talking about is basic micro of any single TvZ engagment (and not even that since no mutas, mines, medivas and banes are around which all require extra control) which makes any TvZ that includes a combat more micro intense than 2rax.
It's neither needed for balance nor produces superior games. It's just a bullshit "easy way out" opion to prevent having to train the whole matchup for one side. And pretty anoying when you hit those players that openly admit that they 2rax every single TvZ "because they can. !@#$%^&* please."
Remove 2 rax and enjoy how greedy zerg will play on 4 players maps. And you can deal with it without even scouting tbh. You just need to learn how to deal with it.
16h/15p is the most economical a zerg can get with a two base opening according to some (old) testings (because of queens that you need a pool for - else you are larvastarved)). Thats what a lot of zergs do regardless of 2rax existing. If he goes later pool, just rejoice, the injects come too late and the build is worse. And those builds are not good against reaper anyways. 3h is bad against reaper macro builds. I dont see the problem.
Agree, I don't think zerg will be considerably more greedy if 2rax goes away, and I would argue that +2/3% greed barely matters anyway for the overall gameflow. Its not like you can't hellion/banshee/marine pressure in the early midgame/late early game anyway.
2 rax is just a dumb lame opening that shouldn't be (semi)viable imo.
And about the micro, in case of a bunker rush, micro is only available to the Terran. Or you suddenly expect for slow lings, queens and spine crawler to 'outmicro' ranged units. It ain't happening. The Zerg is entirely at the mercy of Terran. Recently we've been seeing a lot of 2 rax and I haven't watched a single game where it failed and in all instances, it wasn't even close. Imagine if Zerg had a cheesy, coin-flippy opening that would completely destroy Reaper expand.
Its been here for four years, it has produced intense games and boX series (Foxer vs Nestea, Squirtle vs Mvp and many more..), its full of risk and it makes the game and especially BoX series more interesting as its always nice to see some good old cheese and not just macro games. Im sorry its not going away, nope.
EPT
