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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On August 07 2014 17:09 Socup wrote: Protip: Widow Mines have bottom level attack priority when not burrowed. Unless you're in wood league, you're not going to just a-move through a mine field.. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On August 07 2014 21:04 TurboMaN wrote: Yeah that might be a good change, or at least they should make something which makes gateways/warpgate switches worth it. Now every game warpgates are researched immediately and there is no incentive to use a gateway Gateways could have slightly faster production times, maybe slow the transformation into a Gateway as well. Back in the days of Khaydarin Amulet, I suggested that High Templar who are made from a Gateway can start with 75 energy, but those from a Gateway only with 50. (to prevent Warp-in Storms) Maybe something similar could be done with other Protoss units? | ||
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r691175002
249 Posts
On August 07 2014 13:10 Socup wrote:Balance whining? No. I can appreciate that you really believe what you're saying, but the person with the illogical argument is the one saying that the supply cost of Terran having a bunker somehow makes or breaks Terran being able to fight main army vs main army. That's completely illogical and a terrible stance to take. I can't make you understand if you don't want to understand. This discussion was never about the merits of a single bunker at the third. The post that started this chain of comments stated that late game harass could be shut down by bunkers and widow mines. One bunker does not shut down harass against 3-5 bases in the late game. Permanently shutting down harass with a purely mineral investment (as zerg and protoss frequently do via static defense) is not an option for Terran. Furthermore, protoss has near instant warp-in and zerg units are generally very fast so army reinforcement is easy. Static defense as the means of harassment defense is just not an option for terran. A terran cannot leave 4+ supply at every single base and expect to win the game. You have been backpedaled all the way to a single bunker when the initial claim was bunkers and widow mines. As I said, in the late game a Terran defense by posturing and attacking to discourage backstabs. The main and natural also get somewhat covered by reinforcing units. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On August 07 2014 23:47 Thezzy wrote: Gateways could have slightly faster production times, maybe slow the transformation into a Gateway as well. Back in the days of Khaydarin Amulet, I suggested that High Templar who are made from a Gateway can start with 75 energy, but those from a Gateway only with 50. (to prevent Warp-in Storms) Maybe something similar could be done with other Protoss units? What's the point? The templar will spawn later if not warped in and will have less time to regenerate energy. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
ATM - all Protoss has flawed is the Colossus, all Zerg has flawed is the SH/Viper combo (not even one of those units each, but only when the two are in combo), and maybe surpass of Mutalisk efficiency in terms of easy endless potential repeatance, and lack of a real, good backdoor Terran however - probably needs to have Marines nerfed and gotten more AoE control for that cost notice - not even more AoE splash - as if they didn't have enough "blobs" already lol, but things like snares, stuns, defense mechanisms, oh, and less gay cloak (cloak usually breaks Zerg very hard and doesn't do a thing to Protoss).. A very good candidate for a stun/snare/def mechanism for the Terran arsenal woudl've been the Widow-Mine, but surprise surprise - "big ass explosions" are what's "cool to watch" so Terran cause of that fact now has a terrible AoE control Speaking of def. mechanisms - PDD is another example - one of those which is both too effective and in the same time too horrible.. PO is another def mechanism which it's flaw is it does actual damage instead of just "control", if MSC had Stasis for example instead of PO - game would've been far better IMO.. Mentioned stasis not cause I'm BW nostalgic or anything, but cause it's the perfect way to do "control" and not snowball.. So - flow control things should do flow control, not just add the "kill counts" "out of nowhere" around.. (I know - Psi Storms, but must say that I'm THAT biased to say that I really like those  ), but still - a general guideline - not just Terran, but all races shouldn't have units that snowball out of control once having several of that same kind IMO..ATM Mostly Raven belongs as the only "jerk" in that category - once piled up to 8,9,10 - too hard to even engage those - terrible game design there, units - even most expensive ones unless requiring to have them babysit almost all the time (like the BW carrier used to be for example) - despite cost - things shouldn't snowball.. Sci vessels were already gay enough in BW, luckily there were Scourge to control their flock growth, but looks like Blizz still isn't learning that lesson - there shouldn't be energy-based units that snowball AND get almost too safe once they grow in greater numbers though.. They either be good but engage-able, or be semi/bad and not engageable, but not good and not engageable and then have that - well - mobility blah blah blah conversation as a counter-argument to "rock on".. That's basically "playing with fire" and "praying" that someone manages to make it right after you've "shat things on".. And - there's another bad unit in the Protoss arsenal that I didn't mention - the Tempest was a Terrible option to even start with (in some ways) - so expecting to see that thing scrapped thoroughly though Other than that - TBH I don't see any "greater" (except stylistic preferances) game flaws | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mqKrKFk.png) Regarding winrates, T had an edge against P, and a very small edge against T. PvZ is even. Regarding populations, there were only about twice as many PvPs as TvTs and 2.5x ZvZs as TvTs, so there's improvement. On July 24 2014 15:32 Ghanburighan wrote: While we're looking at winrates, here's another Aligulac list: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6zp9WrK.png) Just looking at winrates, PvT is rather even, and so is PvZ but TvZ has gone down to the dumps again. On the other hand, the population numbers are the worst ever for Terran. It looks like T has a constant of around 100 games every period, but with the added number of games (last period has 1799 games, this one 3866), only Z and P seem to have added more mirrors. So there are 4.8x as many ZvZ as TvT, and 3.8x as many PvP as TvT. This also means that P has once again caught up with Z populations, last period it was 1.3 ZvZ for every 1 PvP, now it's 1.2. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On August 07 2014 15:00 Socup wrote: The one thing I can agree with you on is the issue of upgrades. All races have equal cost and time to complete for their upgrades, which doesn't make much sense with Protoss Chrono. I'd rather see Protoss be an over/under race, which is that it's slightly longer to upgrade compared to Z or T unless chrono is used, at which point it's slightly less. However, the people that actually balance the game probably understand the issues better than either of us. As far as drilling claws go, I assume you've never had the pleasure of setting 10 mines down in front of a protoss army and watching their HTs and colossus all disappear in an instant. I have. Drilling claws also enable mid to late game mineral line harass for much cheaper than marine drops. You keep focusing solely on the issue of whether robo first is played or not, you have so much hyperfocus towards that one thing that you can't see other alternatives to later game widow mine play. I suppose I'll tell you now that digging claws are an absolute must past the early to early-mid game with Protoss. Its like the mid to late game Terran oracle compared to the Protoss early game oracle. All it takes is a tiny distraction and the Protoss mineral line is instantly gone, regardless of the defenses set up. If people are having problems with a late game protoss army, maybe try using more expensive higher tier units? I love how people complain that T army is inferior to P army when their army resource cost is always half or less and protoss is using all it's power units. Is this for real or for laugh? A single canon per mineral line is all that's necessary to deter/kill widow mines mid to late game. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
Original Message From parkufarku: every irrelevant tournament and random qualifers, good job? Only balance at the highest level is relevant. Anything lower, skill level overcomes bias. Why am I not surprised the Terran player is trying to use Aligulac to support the argument? Flawed data to support a flawed argument. If it were up to me, Widow mines would cost 100 mineral 250 gas, 150/150 for medivac (no boost), Mules have half duration, Building lift requires 150/150 research, and Bio upgrade cost goes up significantly. This way, your OP race can stay balanced. I think with these changes, terran will do ok. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On August 08 2014 17:10 Faust852 wrote: Hey guys, I have the perfect balance proposition coming from parkufarku I think with these changes, terran will do ok. Jokers to the right... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 08 2014 17:10 Faust852 wrote: Hey guys, I have the perfect balance proposition coming from parkufarku I think with these changes, terran will do ok. Marines don't even cost gas with his proposals, what a disgrace. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On August 08 2014 18:10 TheDwf wrote: Marines don't even cost gas with his proposals, what a disgrace. And they still have 5 range! It's like he's not even trying! | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
On topic: Even though I try, but I guess I'm just not that good at splitting my army as Z against biomine. I can manage with a smaller count of mines, but once widow mine numbers go out of control (10+), I can't seem to break a minefield at all with ling/bling/muta. Also, baiting mine shots with a few lings fails more often than not vs. good Terrans. Since I play random, as T I would actively deny creep to the 3rd/4th of Z, prioritize widow mine production burrowing them just outside creep, and patiently wait for creep to recede to push forward. At some point, the Z almost always loses patience and engage off creep as I edge ever closer to his hatchery. Depending on the map, as T sometimes I would lose to counterattacks or be forced to base trade by a good Z, who rightfully refuses to engage off-creep against a large minefield and pre-split bio. TL;DR: once widow mine numbers reach a critical mass, I feel there is no way to really engage with a traditional ling/bling/muta army as Z. I wouldn't go as far as calling widow mines OP, but the change is definitely very noticeable; a night and day difference since I could used to just move (to prevent kiting) then a-move my entire z army over the T biomine ball and watch it pretty much evaporate. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 08 2014 22:56 egrimm wrote: I have a question regarding WM's health, is there any particular reason WM has that specific (90) amount of HP ? Intuitively: - Same amount as Hellions. - Survives 2 banes for most of the game. - Survives one Storm. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
On August 08 2014 23:14 TheDwf wrote: Intuitively: - Same amount as Hellions. - Survives 2 banes for most of the game. - Survives one Storm. I am wondering if it isn't a bit too much. Hellions are easier to kill as they don't burrow  Banes do 20+15 dmg so 2 banes do 2*35=70 dmg And I'm not sure if surviving storm is needed. Maybe HT openings would be more viable if WM could be one-shoted with storm? Additionally you need 9 stalker shots to kill 1 WM. If we count cooldown etc, you need 3 stalkers to kill WM before it burrows. Maybe it should be easier to kill WM given how much dmg WM drop can do? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
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eusoc
Italy82 Posts
On August 08 2014 23:28 egrimm wrote: I am wondering if it isn't a bit too much. Hellions are easier to kill as they don't burrow Banes do 20+15 dmg so 2 banes do 2*35=70 dmg And I'm not sure if surviving storm is needed. Maybe HT openings would be more viable if WM could be one-shoted with storm? Additionally you need 9 stalker shots to kill 1 WM. If we count cooldown etc, you need 3 stalkers to kill WM before it burrows. Maybe it should be easier to kill WM given how much dmg WM drop can do? You actually need 5 stalkers, as the third shot goes on already borrowed mine and do 0 damage(and stalkers dont shot like marines) | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 08 2014 23:28 egrimm wrote: I am wondering if it isn't a bit too much. Hellions are easier to kill as they don't burrow Banes do 20+15 dmg so 2 banes do 2*35=70 dmg And I'm not sure if surviving storm is needed. Maybe HT openings would be more viable if WM could be one-shoted with storm? Additionally you need 9 stalker shots to kill 1 WM. If we count cooldown etc, you need 3 stalkers to kill WM before it burrows. Maybe it should be easier to kill WM given how much dmg WM drop can do? I feel like if widow mines had 5 less HP i would never die to widow mines lol. Everytime I'm like 2-3hp away from killing it and it burrows successfully and kills half my probes. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 08 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote: I feel like if widow mines had 5 less HP i would never die to widow mines lol. Everytime I'm like 2-3hp away from killing it and it burrows successfully and kills half my probes. Move your probes ? v_v | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
On August 08 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote: I feel like if widow mines had 5 less HP i would never die to widow mines lol. Everytime I'm like 2-3hp away from killing it and it burrows successfully and kills half my probes. Yeah, I feel alike  Which is especially frustrating when you think you have proper defence (2-3 stalkers in mineral line) and you still lose half of probes or try move probes away split sec to late and lose all of them lol | ||
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