EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1049
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
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xShadow53
14 Posts
On August 07 2014 11:58 Survivor61316 wrote: They also introduced chrono to allow Toss to build workers/army/upgrades faster.. Another non-issue. It doesn't address the fact that Terran has a larger standing army at 200 food. Strawman, basically. Terran army at max is inferior to protoss army. It's been proven time, and time again. | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On August 07 2014 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote: They are not non-issues, and if you truly think so then you don't understand what you are talking about. Robo first does make drilling claw and widow mines in general invalid because they die too easily to robo first builds. Its a waste of time a money to build something, then upgrade it, when in all likelihood its not going to accomplish anything. Have you ever looked at the supply cost to defend a drop versus doing to drops? Two full medivacs is 20 supply, and can be defended by 1 ht and a couple of stalkers or zealots of less total supply, or the non supply nexus cannon. Also, yet again I feel like I must point out that Toss doesnt need all of its supply to fight a max supply Terran army, so it doesn't matter if they leave some units back to defend. Pros regularly do this. Which leads into the other thing you foolishly label a "non-issue." It doesnt matter if Terran has a larger standing army when both sides are maxed because Protoss' army is far more efficient and can win with less supply (hence why pros know they can leave some army back to defend against drops). Especially when Toss is always going to be ahead on upgrades until Terran catches up to their 3-3. The one thing I can agree with you on is the issue of upgrades. All races have equal cost and time to complete for their upgrades, which doesn't make much sense with Protoss Chrono. I'd rather see Protoss be an over/under race, which is that it's slightly longer to upgrade compared to Z or T unless chrono is used, at which point it's slightly less. However, the people that actually balance the game probably understand the issues better than either of us. As far as drilling claws go, I assume you've never had the pleasure of setting 10 mines down in front of a protoss army and watching their HTs and colossus all disappear in an instant. I have. Drilling claws also enable mid to late game mineral line harass for much cheaper than marine drops. You keep focusing solely on the issue of whether robo first is played or not, you have so much hyperfocus towards that one thing that you can't see other alternatives to later game widow mine play. I suppose I'll tell you now that digging claws are an absolute must past the early to early-mid game with Protoss. Its like the mid to late game Terran oracle compared to the Protoss early game oracle. All it takes is a tiny distraction and the Protoss mineral line is instantly gone, regardless of the defenses set up. If people are having problems with a late game protoss army, maybe try using more expensive higher tier units? I love how people complain that T army is inferior to P army when their army resource cost is always half or less and protoss is using all it's power units. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On August 07 2014 15:00 Socup wrote: If people are having problems with a late game protoss army, maybe try using more expensive higher tier units? I love how people complain that T army is inferior to P army when their army resource cost is always half or less and protoss is using all it's power units. The old BS argument is still BS. With vikings, medivacs and ghosts, terran armies aren't cheaper. Especially if toss has a good number of chargelots. On top of that, terran infrastructure is more expensive and takes far longer to put an army on the field after the initial investment. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 07 2014 15:00 Socup wrote: The one thing I can agree with you on is the issue of upgrades. All races have equal cost and time to complete for their upgrades, which doesn't make much sense with Protoss Chrono. I'd rather see Protoss be an over/under race, which is that it's slightly longer to upgrade compared to Z or T unless chrono is used, at which point it's slightly less. However, the people that actually balance the game probably understand the issues better than either of us. As far as drilling claws go, I assume you've never had the pleasure of setting 10 mines down in front of a protoss army and watching their HTs and colossus all disappear in an instant. I have. Drilling claws also enable mid to late game mineral line harass for much cheaper than marine drops. You keep focusing solely on the issue of whether robo first is played or not, you have so much hyperfocus towards that one thing that you can't see other alternatives to later game widow mine play. I suppose I'll tell you now that digging claws are an absolute must past the early to early-mid game with Protoss. Its like the mid to late game Terran oracle compared to the Protoss early game oracle. All it takes is a tiny distraction and the Protoss mineral line is instantly gone, regardless of the defenses set up. If people are having problems with a late game protoss army, maybe try using more expensive higher tier units? I love how people complain that T army is inferior to P army when their army resource cost is always half or less and protoss is using all it's power units. Meta #23 Morrow and Xenocider say that WMs are not viable against Colossus/Stalker based play. Going back to our banshee discussion, I guess this is enough for you to believe it?! About that last sentence: Here is the math behind it (without starting a gas vs mineral discussion): Medivac, Viking, Ghost are all more or equally expensive than/as Colossus, Templar, Archon, Immortal, MsC per supply Marine == Zealot per supply. Stalkers are more expensive than marauders per supply. Assuming equal supply, the costs are probably pretty much the same and far, far, far from "army resource cost is always half or less". | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
As far as drilling claws go, I assume you've never had the pleasure of setting 10 mines down in front of a protoss army and watching their HTs and colossus all disappear in an instant. I have. At what level are you playing lol. 2 colossi are enough to annihilate WM in a couple of second. Anyway, you are a funny guy, everytime your arguments are being dismissed, you just ignore the fact and go on another rent even more stupid. Really poor argumentation skills. And please, show me games where terran sacks his SCV for a better army and wins it ? That must have happened like... twice in 2014. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On August 07 2014 15:00 Socup wrote: The one thing I can agree with you on is the issue of upgrades. All races have equal cost and time to complete for their upgrades, which doesn't make much sense with Protoss Chrono. I'd rather see Protoss be an over/under race, which is that it's slightly longer to upgrade compared to Z or T unless chrono is used, at which point it's slightly less. However, the people that actually balance the game probably understand the issues better than either of us. As far as drilling claws go, I assume you've never had the pleasure of setting 10 mines down in front of a protoss army and watching their HTs and colossus all disappear in an instant. I have. Drilling claws also enable mid to late game mineral line harass for much cheaper than marine drops. You keep focusing solely on the issue of whether robo first is played or not, you have so much hyperfocus towards that one thing that you can't see other alternatives to later game widow mine play. I suppose I'll tell you now that digging claws are an absolute must past the early to early-mid game with Protoss. Its like the mid to late game Terran oracle compared to the Protoss early game oracle. All it takes is a tiny distraction and the Protoss mineral line is instantly gone, regardless of the defenses set up. If people are having problems with a late game protoss army, maybe try using more expensive higher tier units? I love how people complain that T army is inferior to P army when their army resource cost is always half or less and protoss is using all it's power units. Its you who are hyperfocused on the potential damage that mines can do, without actually considering how poorly the Protoss has to play to allow that to happen. Even with fast burrow, Toss should have plenty of time to react, and plenty of ways to react. Cannons in the mineral line, 5 zealots and a ht waiting for the drops, 4 stalkers and a ht killing the medivac before it unloads, warping in units, nexus cannon. All of these things shut drops down. And I would absolutely love for you to show me a replay of widow mines causing colossi disappear outside of bronze league. Scratch that, find one where it happens even in bronze league and I will be impressed. Stalkers and colossi both outrange the mine. So no, widow mines will never be viable vs robo play because they dont actually get shots off. Yes they are good against robo-less play, hence the lack of viable builds without a robo in it and why Toss are opening robo almost every game. It would be a complete waste of resources to upgrade drilling claws before the very late game when that money should be going to units or 2-2-1/3-3-2. About using high tier units, lets be serious here please. Terran has no viable high tier units, particularly not against Toss. Bcs are owned by fb/vrs/temps (assuming you are somehow magically able to build more than 1-2 without dying), thors are obviously trash vs Toss, Ravens are only good in very high numbers (again will never have the time or resources to build them), and thats about it for high tier units. A viking/ghost composition with a handful of marauders is the Terran dream army vs Toss, but like everything else, you are never afforded the time or money to reach it. | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 07 2014 17:09 Socup wrote: Protip: Widow Mines have bottom level attack priority when not burrowed. Protip: Good players know that and use hold position to kill these WMs, and if the terran player decide to attack to bait, just release the hounds and profit of the newly reintroduce friendly fire. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 07 2014 17:09 Socup wrote: Protip: Widow Mines have bottom level attack priority when not burrowed. Protip: Widow Mines are not viable against Colossus/Stalker. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 07 2014 15:00 Socup wrote: The one thing I can agree with you on is the issue of upgrades. All races have equal cost and time to complete for their upgrades, which doesn't make much sense with Protoss Chrono. I'd rather see Protoss be an over/under race, which is that it's slightly longer to upgrade compared to Z or T unless chrono is used, at which point it's slightly less. However, the people that actually balance the game probably understand the issues better than either of us. As far as drilling claws go, I assume you've never had the pleasure of setting 10 mines down in front of a protoss army and watching their HTs and colossus all disappear in an instant. I have. Drilling claws also enable mid to late game mineral line harass for much cheaper than marine drops. You keep focusing solely on the issue of whether robo first is played or not, you have so much hyperfocus towards that one thing that you can't see other alternatives to later game widow mine play. I suppose I'll tell you now that digging claws are an absolute must past the early to early-mid game with Protoss. Its like the mid to late game Terran oracle compared to the Protoss early game oracle. All it takes is a tiny distraction and the Protoss mineral line is instantly gone, regardless of the defenses set up. If people are having problems with a late game protoss army, maybe try using more expensive higher tier units? I love how people complain that T army is inferior to P army when their army resource cost is always half or less and protoss is using all it's power units. No one is arguing about how good drilling claws is, its amazing. But Terran is quite tight on money during the mid/ early late game and it would be very hard to build a second factory, get a tech lab on it, research drilling claws while keeping up viking/medivac production and upgrades. By the time you can afford that widow mines are already being phased out for the much more supply effective ghost. Also the only viable power unit in TvP lategame is the ghost, which terrans already try to mass in lategame. Ravens are pointless unless you're meching and a mech/sky terran tech switch is absolutely impossible. On August 07 2014 17:52 Grumbels wrote: I was thinking, would the existence of supply efficient (high cost / low supply) units help mitigate the constraints the supply cap creates? You could, at a cost, continue to improve your army after reaching it and therefore the supply cap would be less punishing. High templars for Protoss, infestors and banes for zerg, Ghosts in TvP and Ravens in TvZ serve that purpose well. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 07 2014 18:06 Grumbels wrote: ^ yeah, but those are specific spell casters, I was thinking there's maybe not really a core army unit you can change into that's not a caster / air unit. Just a general thought, mind you. resources/supply (non-caster, non-flyer): 50: marine, zergling, hellion, roach, zealot, hellbat, widow mine 51-75: marauder, hydralisk, queen ___________________________________________________________ 75-99: stalker, tank, thor, ultralisk, Colossus, Immortal 100-149: reaper, archon, dark templar, swarm host 150+: baneling I think about some of those units, you can definitely say, that if you can afford them, you will switch into them. I think the main problems with those units is often: The process of switching into them: think bio into tanks/thors is hard; going for multiple robos is costly, takes a lot of time and requires a lot of air control setup; defending until you get the ultralisk/baneling counts up against endless attacks/drops takes forever and gives the opponent lots of opportunities to kill you Opening like that makes for turtly/boring gameplay (assuing such a style is viable), since you don't have any incentive to attack. I agree with the idea though! But I think the best (only interesting) way to achieve these kinds of switches, is if the units that you switch into bring you extra utility. In case of very back and forth play (a defensive or offensive situation for example), if you have a costly and less costly option, with the same unit efficiancy, you are always going to go for the less costly one. Since, if you succeed with that option, you would naturally be even better off (overpowered) with the other one. So I think the only reason to go for the other option, is that that siege tanks extra range gives you new utility. Or that the mutalisk count is rising, so you want that Thor that is more efficiant than extra marines against them. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 07 2014 15:00 Socup wrote: If people are having problems with a late game protoss army, maybe try using more expensive higher tier units? I love how people complain that T army is inferior to P army when their army resource cost is always half or less and protoss is using all it's power units. ![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/461524GhostsVikings2.jpg) | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
But are we allowed to be surprised? No. Back in the days Protoss even got a hotkey for Warpins so they don't even need the gateways on a hotkey. Of course the hotkey doesn't change anything on the top level, BUT it shows how Blizzard wants Toss mechanics to be easy. E: Forgot to mention Terran is a strong early and midgame race (according to the balance team) and then they introduced the MsC with Photon overcharge. That is just another hint on game design. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Right now units warp-in pretty fast, giving Protoss a universally adaptable response anywhere there is a Pylon field. If the warp-in time took longer, the units would be at more risk and sniping a Pylon could prevent the warp-in. Protoss would either have to warp-in further away from the fight or risk losing units. My main gripe with TvP lategame is that there is nothing I can really switch into from Bio. Mass Air? Tempests/High Templar/Phoenix stomp on that. Hard. Especially hard if you include Battlecruisers. Mech? Very tricky and very vulnerable to any Protoss tech switch. Units like the Reaper, Banshee, Thor or Battlecruisers are all crap against Protoss. Maybe the Reaper could do with a lategame upgrade that restores its WoL attack + building attack (and maybe give it a little more range). You could have a lategame Reaper squad that can decimate worker lines and snipe tech structures. | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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