EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1040
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sibs
635 Posts
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On July 29 2014 07:51 LingBlingBling wrote: I always find it funny when players watch Top end gods like Maru and say "well he did not make ghost and enough vikings" That is one of the major problems Terrans have in the late game vs protoss.......it is very hard to balance the right amount of ghost with viking in time to defeat the protoss death ball correctly, most Terrans just try to out play and micro with the MMM ball. It takes to long for Terran to have the late game army they need, not to mention if they lost any of it, it's also hard to compete with instant warp ins after you slaughter the protoss army and have little left afterwards. Zest is even more of a "top end god" than Maru. Zest defended flawlessly against endless waves of MMM stiming in and dropping at different points at the same time. He did that while continuing to tech up and macro even though he was at a mobility disadvantage due to speed medevacs and was hard pressed by Maru who was basically all in with MMM. Go watch Taeja versus Zest if you want to see a Terran beating the best Toss in the world. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 29 2014 08:53 Salient wrote: Zest is even more of a "top end god" than Maru. Zest defended flawlessly against endless waves of MMM stiming in and dropping at different points at the same time. He did that while continuing to tech up and macro even though he was at a mobility disadvantage due to speed medevacs and was hard pressed by Maru who was basically all in with MMM. Go watch Taeja versus Zest if you want to see a Terran beating the best Toss in the world. Yeah, go watch Taeja vs Zest and tell me Zest played his A-Game. | ||
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ETisME
12605 Posts
Maru picking off colossus is not a huge deal when he loses a brunch of units, including medivac and with his build didn't pay off when he has to delay ghosts and vikings production. He never really did enough damage that is worth the aggression because how good zest defended and not collapses at maru double drops at main or poking at third and natural. He at best traded even when he loses a medivac full of units picking off colossus | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On July 29 2014 08:53 Salient wrote: Zest is even more of a "top end god" than Maru. Zest defended flawlessly against endless waves of MMM stiming in and dropping at different points at the same time. He did that while continuing to tech up and macro even though he was at a mobility disadvantage due to speed medevacs and was hard pressed by Maru who was basically all in with MMM. Go watch Taeja versus Zest if you want to see a Terran beating the best Toss in the world. Protoss mobility disadvantage is offset by the strength of its units and furthermore when you include warp-prism tactics. Warp-prisms received a huge buff and yet it gets underrated because so many games were won by oracles and blink or just classic deathballs. | ||
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w3c.TruE
Czech Republic1055 Posts
On July 29 2014 07:45 Faust852 wrote: Maru didn't make ghost/vikings fast enough, but the game is still BS with Zest having 2k minerals after 10 zealots warpin and stuff. No race should be able to stay alive this long on 2 bases too. He really got outplayed and the only move he did well was placing his stalkers at the good position, but he lost 2 colossis so it evens things out. Maru macro et microed like a god, Zest survived with poor macro and micro, but it was enough to secure his third and thus winning the game because maru commited a lot in the early game. There you have it, the really strong midgame terran. Maru was able to kill 2 Collosi at the Zest's third, yes. But he lost bunch of units there + 2 medivacs full of units in the main of Zest. So it was very uneven trade. Maru lost majority of his army for 2 Collosi and like 4 Zealots and 1 sentry, I would take that trade everytime as a protoss... Zest was great in splitting his army, so he can defend all his bases, that's very hard thing to do against good Terran opponent. His army control and possitioning were great and that have won him the game. No race should be able to stay alive this long on 2 bases too. That's just BS. Zest took his third at around 12 minutes, and that's reasonable against opponent, who is that much aggresive. Also Maru took his third at the same time... | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On July 29 2014 11:58 plogamer wrote: Protoss mobility disadvantage is offset by the strength of its units and furthermore when you include warp-prism tactics. Warp-prisms received a huge buff and yet it gets underrated because so many games were won by oracles and blink or just classic deathballs. LOL. Good one. Zerg is perhaps the most mobile, but also the weakest. Protoss is more mobile, and anything but infantry Terran is highly immobile. What's a mobility disadvantage about charge lots? Archons? Stalker? Colossus? Please tell me. 2.81 or 2.95 speed, Colossus can walk over any ground units (it's essentially a FLYING AoE), and can escape up cliffs, or circumvent the normal terrain issues a ground army has, thus keeping up with a stalker ball, and outpacing terran ground. The problem with TvP is that Terran units are always soft counters to Protoss, while PRotoss units are always hard counters. Immortal soft countered by marine, marine hard countered by colossus, colossus soft countered by viking, viking hard countered by stalker/void, stalker hard countered by marauder, marauder hard countered by immortal, storm, archon, chargelot, archon soft countered by thor, thor hard countered by immortal, archon, chargelot. The counters to Protoss units for Terran are extremely hard countered by many different protoss units alone, let alone in a well mixed ball. Edit: It is for these reasons that David Kim and Browder-head have instituted the widow mine as it is. Widow mine has + shield damage. Widow mine also has a research at the factory to make it bury faster. The only reason a mine needs to bury faster is to prevent units from getting away in time or be able to fire before being blown up in the middle of a fight. Due to this it seems very clearly that the overall racial problem of Terran vs Protoss being bad for T in straight up fights because of the way the hard and soft counters work (marines hard counter immortal, but you have to stick them out in front where they get murdered by the typical protoss ball, which means your mech is next) was attempted to be solved by "a core unit" as DK put it, in the Widow Mine. He called it "core" because that's exactly what it is, a one unit band-aid meant to fix truly core problems in TvP MU. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 29 2014 13:13 w3c.TruE wrote: Maru was able to kill 2 Collosi at the Zest's third, yes. But he lost bunch of units there + 2 medivacs full of units in the main of Zest. So it was very uneven trade. Maru lost majority of his army for 2 Collosi and like 4 Zealots and 1 sentry, I would take that trade everytime as a protoss... Zest was great in splitting his army, so he can defend all his bases, that's very hard thing to do against good Terran opponent. His army control and possitioning were great and that have won him the game. That's just BS. Zest took his third at around 12 minutes, and that's reasonable against opponent, who is that much aggresive. Also Maru took his third at the same time... To be precise, he lost 10marines and 4marauders for the 2 Colossi, 1 Zealot and 1 Sentry. And two full medivacs in Zest's main base. Army supplies were 75 to 55 before that, and 41 to 46 afterwards. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:25 Socup wrote: LOL. Good one. Zerg is perhaps the most mobile, but also the weakest. Protoss is more mobile, and anything but infantry Terran is highly immobile. What's a mobility disadvantage about charge lots? Archons? Stalker? Colossus? Please tell me. 2.81 or 2.95 speed, Colossus can walk over any ground units (it's essentially a FLYING AoE), and can escape up cliffs, or circumvent the normal terrain issues a ground army has, thus keeping up with a stalker ball, and outpacing terran ground. The problem with TvP is that Terran units are always soft counters to Protoss, while PRotoss units are always hard counters. Immortal soft countered by marine, marine hard countered by colossus, colossus soft countered by viking, viking hard countered by stalker/void, stalker hard countered by marauder, marauder hard countered by immortal, storm, archon, chargelot, archon soft countered by thor, thor hard countered by immortal, archon, chargelot. The counters to Protoss units for Terran are extremely hard countered by many different protoss units alone, let alone in a well mixed ball. When he says mobility disadvantage it refers to both the fact that the protoss army NEEDS to stay in a tight ball or else a terran like Maru will pick it apart, and over short distances Terran has a massive mobility advantage with stim and speed medivacs- a protoss army will not catch a terran one, and a terran army can reposition, pull back, move to a better fighting location, concave, etc. much faster than the protoss army can. Although the large armies move at the same speed, when terran MMM needs to move fast, barely anything can move faster. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 29 2014 13:13 w3c.TruE wrote: Maru was able to kill 2 Collosi at the Zest's third, yes. But he lost bunch of units there + 2 medivacs full of units in the main of Zest. So it was very uneven trade. Maru lost majority of his army for 2 Collosi and like 4 Zealots and 1 sentry, I would take that trade everytime as a protoss... Zest was great in splitting his army, so he can defend all his bases, that's very hard thing to do against good Terran opponent. His army control and possitioning were great and that have won him the game. That's just BS. Zest took his third at around 12 minutes, and that's reasonable against opponent, who is that much aggresive. Also Maru took his third at the same time... I obviously overexagerated. I tend to be pissed everytime a terran lose a TvP. Especially with my favourite players. But I stand with the fact that Zest didn't play well, had a shitty macro and mainly won because of lucky positionning with his Stalkers. | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On July 29 2014 15:12 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: When he says mobility disadvantage it refers to both the fact that the protoss army NEEDS to stay in a tight ball or else a terran like Maru will pick it apart, and over short distances Terran has a massive mobility advantage with stim and speed medivacs- a protoss army will not catch a terran one, and a terran army can reposition, pull back, move to a better fighting location, concave, etc. much faster than the protoss army can. Although the large armies move at the same speed, when terran MMM needs to move fast, barely anything can move faster. Which is probably why Force Field and Fungals exist. Z and P have superior natural mobility. Terran mobility takes energy/hp, micro, unit selection. Much different kind of "mobility". | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 29 2014 06:48 Karpfen wrote: This is cool and all but you don't take into account that there is a map for the lings to cross. They cross it fast but you can still morph baneling. WoL ZvZ was very very similar apart from the number of mutas and infestor being better in general. Instead of infestor harrass we have burrow roaches so it doesn't change much on that part. The early game was also literally the same just like late game with roach hydra infestor and broodlord if it's possible to do. In HotS everything is a numbers game in ZvZ. You have more roaches? You win the moment you engage. You have more mutas? You win the moment you engage. You have more lings? You win the moment you engage. You have more drones/bases? There is no lasting advantage that the opponent can have. In WoL you could go for a techbuild (infestors or mutas of 2bases) and still match a 3basing opponent (either by having the better unit composition, or by having map control and doing damage). And you couldn't just move into your opponent, the moment you had a unit advantage. I think the following two screenshots just sum it up best and are the main things that made WoL ZvZ quite a decent matchup: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Biysomu.png) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/65mjsTj.png) So, the early game was very different, because you didn't have to expose yourself to that degree you have to in HotS and give your opponent the opportunity to kill you with just building an extra round of units at a random timing. And the mid- and lategame wasn't just running roaches into each other until one guy cracks or somehow gets out a different tech unit. Imo, WoL ZvZ with the roach burrow buff and Vipers (to abduct infestors and blind cloud) would probably make for a good matchup. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On July 29 2014 07:51 LingBlingBling wrote: The problem with TvP is that Terran units are always soft counters to Protoss, while PRotoss units are always hard counters. Immortal soft countered by marine, marine hard countered by colossus, colossus soft countered by viking, viking hard countered by stalker/void, stalker hard countered by marauder, marauder hard countered by immortal, storm, archon, chargelot, archon soft countered by thor, thor hard countered by immortal, archon, chargelot. The counters to Protoss units for Terran are extremely hard countered by many different protoss units alone, let alone in a well mixed ball. Edit: It is for these reasons that David Kim and Browder-head have instituted the widow mine as it is. Widow mine has + shield damage. Widow mine also has a research at the factory to make it bury faster. The only reason a mine needs to bury faster is to prevent units from getting away in time or be able to fire before being blown up in the middle of a fight. Due to this it seems very clearly that the overall racial problem of Terran vs Protoss being bad for T in straight up fights because of the way the hard and soft counters work (marines hard counter immortal, but you have to stick them out in front where they get murdered by the typical protoss ball, which means your mech is next) was attempted to be solved by "a core unit" as DK put it, in the Widow Mine. He called it "core" because that's exactly what it is, a one unit band-aid meant to fix truly core problems in TvP MU. I think you need to provide a definition to hard and soft counters: Claiming that the marine "soft counters" immortals, or that vikings "soft counter" Colossus is not very accurate. Viking vs colossus is the best example for a hard counter. Also i dont think marauders are hard countered by storm. A soft counter is when the 1 a vs 1 a situation slightly favours one side but can be negated by micro. For example bio kiting vs chargelots or archons. A hard counter is when there is no question to the outcome of 1a vs 1a. Like viking vs colossus. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On July 29 2014 16:08 Big J wrote: In HotS everything is a numbers game in ZvZ. You have more roaches? You win the moment you engage. You have more mutas? You win the moment you engage. You have more lings? You win the moment you engage. You have more drones/bases? There is no lasting advantage that the opponent can have. In WoL you could go for a techbuild (infestors or mutas of 2bases) and still match a 3basing opponent (either by having the better unit composition, or by having map control and doing damage). And you couldn't just move into your opponent, the moment you had a unit advantage. I think the following two screenshots just sum it up best and are the main things that made WoL ZvZ quite a decent matchup: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + So, the early game was very different, because you didn't have to expose yourself to that degree you have to in HotS and give your opponent the opportunity to kill you with just building an extra round of units at a random timing. And the mid- and lategame wasn't just running roaches into each other until one guy cracks or somehow gets out a different tech unit. Imo, WoL ZvZ with the roach burrow buff and Vipers (to abduct infestors and blind cloud) would probably make for a good matchup. 1- same as before 2- same as before 3- same as before 4- same as before That's not true. 2 base infestor was just bad. 2 base muta was more used because now it's weaker than it was in wol but that's about it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 29 2014 19:06 Karpfen wrote: 1- same as before 2- same as before 3- same as before 4- same as before That's not true. 2 base infestor was just bad. 2 base muta was more used because now it's weaker than it was in wol but that's about it. 1 - nope, because you could have infestors and protect choke points; positioning was a thing, not just reinforcment distance 2 - nope, because you'd transition into infestors anyways; you'd just be behind, because your mutas wouldn't achieve as much, but after 2mins you'd be back in the game. 3 - yup, that was always true. 4- nope, because you did a 2base build against a 3base build. you have an infestor numbers advantage against his economy advantage. Now you could infestor harass, you could do a timing, or you could just let them bank energy, so you'd have a combat advantage for the next fight. Funny how you say that 2base Infestor was bad, when I even posted a picture of Idra vs RoRo in November or December 2012, both going for the 2base Infestor. 2base Infestors were super common because it was a very safe build, compared to 3hatch builds. And I'm not only talking about "real" 2base Infestor builds. Even just builds that got 3-4gases on 2bases, going lair and then expanding and going into Infestors. These were the most standard builds of ZvZ. | ||
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w3c.TruE
Czech Republic1055 Posts
On July 29 2014 15:30 Faust852 wrote: I obviously overexagerated. I tend to be pissed everytime a terran lose a TvP. Especially with my favourite players. But I stand with the fact that Zest didn't play well, had a shitty macro and mainly won because of lucky positionning with his Stalkers. Zest played really great. His macro slipped once, becouse he had to defend multiprong attacks from Maru, and if you have to micro on 2 fronts, you don't have time to warp-in units. His stalker possitioning wasn't "luck" or anything, he saw Medivacs with observers, and reacted to them well. And FYI it's much harder to defend multiprong attacks, than to execute them. It's really hard to split right amounts of units to defend more fronts. He probably could do it slightly better, if he would add about 3 stalker from his main to army at his third, then he probably wouldn't lose 2 collosi, maybe just 1, but that was about his only mistake (if you want to call it mistake...). But Maru made mistakes too, f.e. he only shift-clicked drops into the main, when he attacked Collosi at the third, and that's why he has lost his 2 medivacs full of units. And that was bigger mistake then Zest's, I would say. But I understand that as well, you simply can't control two squads at once, so he was focused on his main army and hoped, that Zest won't react well to his drop, but zest killed his drop, and then quicly focused on the battle at his third, that's why the outcome of this moment was in his favour. TLDR, In this match there is nothing to balance whine about. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 29 2014 20:55 w3c.TruE wrote: Zest played really great. His macro slipped once, becouse he had to defend multiprong attacks from Maru, and if you have to micro on 2 fronts, you don't have time to warp-in units. His stalker possitioning wasn't "luck" or anything, he saw Medivacs with observers, and reacted to them well. And FYI it's much harder to defend multiprong attacks, than to execute them. It's really hard to split right amounts of units to defend more fronts. He probably could do it slightly better, if he would add about 3 stalker from his main to army at his third, then he probably wouldn't lose 2 collosi, maybe just 1, but that was about his only mistake (if you want to call it mistake...). But Maru made mistakes too, f.e. he only shift-clicked drops into the main, when he attacked Collosi at the third, and that's why he has lost his 2 medivacs full of units. And that was bigger mistake then Zest's, I would say. But I understand that as well, you simply can't control two squads at once, so he was focused on his main army and hoped, that Zest won't react well to his drop, but zest killed his drop, and then quicly focused on the battle at his third, that's why the outcome of this moment was in his favour. TLDR, In this match there is nothing to balance whine about. And FYI it's much harder to defend multiprong attacks, than to execute them. f.e. he only shift-clicked drops into the main, when he attacked Collosi at the third, and that's why he has lost his 2 medivacs full of units. So you state something and disproove it 2 lines after. Meh, at least your first claim was ridiculous to begin with. If it was easier for the terran, TvP would be easier for the terran, and not overly imbalanced for the protoss. | ||
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Awin
France65 Posts
And that is the all point of harassment in SC2 : if it become easier for the defender, then the drop or runby is probably not worth it. | ||
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r691175002
249 Posts
True, the defender often needs to react quickly, but once that "test" is passed, the aggression can be shut down with nothing more than a photon overcharge or a small warp in, and will require continuing micro on the part of the attacker. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On July 25 2014 14:19 Konranjyoutai wrote: I'll never trust Aligulac and the ratings it comes too considering the games they use are highly controversial and include everything from online cups to foreign tournaments and premiere Code S tournaments all the way from the first WOL tournaments from the latest HOTS tournaments. It is a very poor way to judge the actual balance of the current meta game as it lumps in HOTS and WOL together as well as low level and high level tournaments. This post should be bolded. Anyone who tries to use Aligulac to cite "data" should be labeled as a biased poster. Aligulac is the worst database to cite, and you only really cite it to try to prove your point (a.k.a. Terrans trying to defend their race). I mean, come on, using WOL in the data? lol that's just laughable. | ||
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