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On July 30 2014 23:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 23:10 ETisME wrote:
You can see what Blizzard tried to do with the design of Mothership Core and Oracle.
Oracle was to give protoss a more multi tasking heavy harassment unit.
MsC was to help protoss to move out and not get caught out of positioned.
Both units were aimed to fixed the three big issue that Protoss has in WoL:
It is risky to move out due to it not being mobile enough.
Little harassment options (also see warp prism and DT buff)
Help to "fix" PvP, this includes scouting. And I think they did a good job with the MsC. Recall attacking/defending is a pretty exciting type of gameplay. The Nexus Canon makes it possible to take third bases against Zerg on time and helps somewhat with early PvP aggression and also allows the HotS medivac to be as strong as it is. Imo, the Nexus Canon's main powerproblem is how much range it actually has. Once you are in the mineral line, you are not getting away with a banshee or a dropship. Even with insta-reaction, the radius is just so big that your harass unit cannot retreat. And even if you bring siege weapons, you are still going to get shot. Obviously this is somewhat important for PvP, so that your main base is protected early on. Still wish they'd find a different solution for PvP, especially since it is a mirror matchup and even with the PO, it's not like we'd sacrifice one of the better MUs.
Your post made me think what if..
Photon Overcharge did less damage to further targets? Add in a + shield damage to off-set PvP impact. Full damage for nexus + few structures, like warp-gates in close proximity. Then 75% damage, then 50% damage minimum.
New micro: Pulling unit back, can be used to bait the nexus shot further back.
Counter-micro: Refocusing Nexus attack on closer targets.
Shield damage can be 50% of the nexus' original damage to off-set the damage drop-off at furthest range in PvP, but pointless once shield is gone. Encourages more re-targeting micro in PvP.
Side effect: Photon overcharge will be much stronger in PvP. Up to 50% more damage with perfect micro/targeting. Not a bad thing. Aggressive builds are still too prevalent in the MU.
TLDR: Nerf Photon overcharge against Terran ( and later tier Z like hydras). Scale down the damage reduction to 75% minimum; if 50% minimum is too imbalanced.
Big question: Will it be too much in PvZ? Can Protoss secure thirds against Z?
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Wow, editing fail. Ignore this shameful double-post lol
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On July 31 2014 13:17 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 23:34 Big J wrote:On July 30 2014 23:10 ETisME wrote:
You can see what Blizzard tried to do with the design of Mothership Core and Oracle.
Oracle was to give protoss a more multi tasking heavy harassment unit.
MsC was to help protoss to move out and not get caught out of positioned.
Both units were aimed to fixed the three big issue that Protoss has in WoL:
It is risky to move out due to it not being mobile enough.
Little harassment options (also see warp prism and DT buff)
Help to "fix" PvP, this includes scouting. And I think they did a good job with the MsC. Recall attacking/defending is a pretty exciting type of gameplay. The Nexus Canon makes it possible to take third bases against Zerg on time and helps somewhat with early PvP aggression and also allows the HotS medivac to be as strong as it is. Imo, the Nexus Canon's main powerproblem is how much range it actually has. Once you are in the mineral line, you are not getting away with a banshee or a dropship. Even with insta-reaction, the radius is just so big that your harass unit cannot retreat. And even if you bring siege weapons, you are still going to get shot. Obviously this is somewhat important for PvP, so that your main base is protected early on. Still wish they'd find a different solution for PvP, especially since it is a mirror matchup and even with the PO, it's not like we'd sacrifice one of the better MUs. Your post made me think what if.. Photon Overcharge did less damage to further targets? Add in a + shield damage to off-set PvP impact. Full damage for nexus + few structures, like warp-gates in close proximity. Then 75% damage, then 50% damage minimum. New micro: Pulling unit back, can be used to bait the nexus shot further back. Counter-micro: Refocusing Nexus attack on closer targets. Shield damage can be 50% of the nexus' original damage to off-set the damage drop-off at furthest range in PvP, but pointless once shield is gone. Encourages more re-targeting micro in PvP. Side effect: Photon overcharge will be much stronger in PvP. Up to 50% more damage with perfect micro/targeting. Not a bad thing. Aggressive builds are still too prevalent in the MU. TLDR: Nerf Photon overcharge against Terran ( and later tier Z like hydras). Scale down the damage reduction to 75% minimum; if 50% minimum is too imbalanced. Big question: Will it be too much in PvZ? Can Protoss secure thirds against Z?
They could secure thirds imo. Roach ling attacks will take less benefits from this because of their low range. Hydras will take a bigger one but if you make it go something like 20 15 10 in damage it's just fine.
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On July 31 2014 13:22 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 13:17 plogamer wrote:On July 30 2014 23:34 Big J wrote:On July 30 2014 23:10 ETisME wrote:
You can see what Blizzard tried to do with the design of Mothership Core and Oracle.
Oracle was to give protoss a more multi tasking heavy harassment unit.
MsC was to help protoss to move out and not get caught out of positioned.
Both units were aimed to fixed the three big issue that Protoss has in WoL:
It is risky to move out due to it not being mobile enough.
Little harassment options (also see warp prism and DT buff)
Help to "fix" PvP, this includes scouting. And I think they did a good job with the MsC. Recall attacking/defending is a pretty exciting type of gameplay. The Nexus Canon makes it possible to take third bases against Zerg on time and helps somewhat with early PvP aggression and also allows the HotS medivac to be as strong as it is. Imo, the Nexus Canon's main powerproblem is how much range it actually has. Once you are in the mineral line, you are not getting away with a banshee or a dropship. Even with insta-reaction, the radius is just so big that your harass unit cannot retreat. And even if you bring siege weapons, you are still going to get shot. Obviously this is somewhat important for PvP, so that your main base is protected early on. Still wish they'd find a different solution for PvP, especially since it is a mirror matchup and even with the PO, it's not like we'd sacrifice one of the better MUs. Your post made me think what if.. Photon Overcharge did less damage to further targets? Add in a + shield damage to off-set PvP impact. Full damage for nexus + few structures, like warp-gates in close proximity. Then 75% damage, then 50% damage minimum. New micro: Pulling unit back, can be used to bait the nexus shot further back. Counter-micro: Refocusing Nexus attack on closer targets. Shield damage can be 50% of the nexus' original damage to off-set the damage drop-off at furthest range in PvP, but pointless once shield is gone. Encourages more re-targeting micro in PvP. Side effect: Photon overcharge will be much stronger in PvP. Up to 50% more damage with perfect micro/targeting. Not a bad thing. Aggressive builds are still too prevalent in the MU. TLDR: Nerf Photon overcharge against Terran ( and later tier Z like hydras). Scale down the damage reduction to 75% minimum; if 50% minimum is too imbalanced. Big question: Will it be too much in PvZ? Can Protoss secure thirds against Z? They could secure thirds imo. Roach ling attacks will take less benefits from this because of their low range. Hydras will take a bigger one but if you make it go something like 20 15 10 in damage it's just fine.
I am confident that once the game hits a stage when hydras are attacking your third, the effect of PO on the fight is not consequential and the energy is most likely better spent on Time Warp
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On July 30 2014 14:06 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Would Hellion speed upgrade (ala Vulture upgrade) be awesome in TvZ.
Everything is slower for Terran.
Imho give speed upgrade to siege tanks. Just for the mind bend of zooming tanks and creative results we might see, ha.
On July 29 2014 08:35 sibs wrote:
I can't believe this patch actually went through
I'm kinda feeling ya here. Terran player here, I feel that the meta is just getting cut a bit short with the patches. I feel that Terran macro and micro has such great variability that we haven't truly been able to fully realize all of our options to definitively say that we're underpowered.
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I was away from this game for a bit and just learned of the incoming new patch. I think T needs some help in some way but I really don't like that Blizz and the GSL (via its maps) do that at the same time, on their own ways. Like when the GSL introduecd terran killing maps like Frost and Alterzim and Blizz nerfed the shit out of Hellbats and Widow Mines.
Now they want to revert back at the same time, again. It's just going to be a vicious cycle.
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From my pov:
Terran has the fastest route to tech up, so if we buff tank or thor even directly, then 1-1-1 timings and simmilar fast tech builds might become to strong again.
However, if we would for example add something like a siege tank upgrade in the Fusion core, then that would give acess to a late game upgrade for sige tank that would cost x gas and y minerals, and give for example damage and range upgrade.
This is just an example. What my actuall point is, we have room for that additional upgrade in the Fusion core, that would alow for some undeused units to become more apealling in late game.
Mines could be reverted to pre last patch state, cause tbh, they were doing their job, blizzard is atm just tipping the balance arround a bit instead of dealing with the actual problem. Bio seems fine, only mech needs a bit of a push.
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So far these so called Terrans buffs have had very little impact on the game. People thought widows would be OP and Thor targeting was useless. In reality, the widow mine buff has been inconsequential and the Thor change helps lower micro load slightly. In the end though, there's been no difference so far. I suspected from the beginning of this "Terrence buff" news was more just to appease the masses, but it's slowly becoming apparent that no balancing was actually performed. It completely ignored the problems of overwhelming Protoss defensive capabilities and didn't fix anything with swarm hosts or mutas or the complete lack of late game tech/units for Terran. In a few weeks the balance whine will be back because nothing was actually balanced, it was just a fake out. :/
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On August 03 2014 00:06 Foreverkul wrote:
So far these so called Terrans buffs have had very little impact on the game. People thought widows would be OP and Thor targeting was useless. In reality, the widow mine buff has been inconsequential and the Thor change helps lower micro load slightly. In the end though, there's been no difference so far. I suspected from the beginning of this "Terrence buff" news was more just to appease the masses, but it's slowly becoming apparent that no balancing was actually performed. It completely ignored the problems of overwhelming Protoss defensive capabilities and didn't fix anything with swarm hosts or mutas or the complete lack of late game tech/units for Terran. In a few weeks the balance whine will be back because nothing was actually balanced, it was just a fake out. :/
We can only hope it had little effect on the game, given that the winrates in TvZ before this patch were usually between 45-50% for Terran without a huge variation and the low Code S representation caused by 80ish PvT winrates started to repair itself without a patch.
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some things to mention:
- mines dealing these big hits again of 17 lings/banes at once
- 1 mine hit in the muta flock in many cases forces all mutalisks to instantly retreat and give terran room for walking forward
- zerg on/off creep performance makes too much of a difference
- zerg aggression/offense/counter attacks are getting more cost unefficient again
- "casual reapers" able to accidently pre-decide games ex nihilo
- offrax still too easy to execute and too hard to defend just like protoss all-ins?
Tho: GG Bunny, hyun obviously was totally clueless in the end what to do against this and the last game was not his a-game anymore.
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The patch was clearly targeted at TvZ and had a substantial effect there.
The widow mine buff went pretty much as expected. It doesn't seem like much when you are watching the fights, but a single lucky hit can kill 15+ units which starts a snowball effect. I feel like I have watched many close TvZ games whose outcome was changed by the new widow mine.
The thor patch has made a surprisingly large difference in my mind, since I was expecting it to do nothing. Zerg players generally target their mutas on medivacs/mines which causes a clump. Even two thor hits on stacked mutas is game-changing.
PvT still feels retarded. Its not even about the win rates, its just how the game progresses. Terran needs to survive one of numerous possible (frequently unscoutable) cheeses, and then score a bop or svc pull in the midgame. Otherwise its just an automatic loss.
I feel this matchup is too buildorder dependent and is often decided simply by what a player lucks into scouting.
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On August 04 2014 04:31 LSN wrote:
some things to mention:
- mines dealing these big hits again of 17 lings/banes at once
- 1 mine hit in the muta flock in many cases forces all mutalisks to instantly retreat and give terran room for walking forward
- zerg on/off creep performance makes too much of a difference
- zerg aggression/offense/counter attacks are getting more cost unefficient again
- "casual reapers" able to accidently pre-decide games ex nihilo
- offrax still too easy to execute and too hard to defend just like protoss all-ins?
Tho: GG Bunny, hyun obviously was totally clueless in the end what to do against this and the last game was not his a-game anymore.
Top to bottom:
1) Zergs got used to mines that were completely and utterly shit. They were random and unreliable before (when they were good) but after the nerf they were random and unreliable and bad even when they hit. Ofcourse they are a big harder to beat once again now, but HyuN was if anything always mediocre with muta/ling/bane to begin with.
2) As previously , now you have to keep an eye on your mutas. You have pneumatized carapace so overseer can fly with mutas and try to snipe mines. The bigger impact I actually see is the Thor.
3) Yes, it does make too much of a difference. The bonus on creep is too much. On creep most battles are completely one sided in favor of Zerg while offcreep they are Terran favored if you COMPARE both scenarios. Zerg is still very capable of taking a good engagement even offcreep.
4) What does make Zerg counterattacks suddenly more cost unefficient again? Even when the mines were as they are now, if you looked at the proscene Zergs could trade cost efficient being 2 upgrades behind, sometimes more, sometimes less which is perfectly viable.
5) I don't even know what "casual reapers" are, but I am pretty sure as I do cast most of pro-level games, that my standard saying is "usually reapers don't even kill one drone" on pro-level, which is the case most of the time.
6) Yes, the only Terran cheese in double 11 is still strong, still defendable and its not a lot easier to execute compared to the hold. What does it make very hard to hold is not having information of it beforehand.
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Lol I expected this thread to make a comeback after Bunny's victory.
Why am I not shocked it's LSN who bumped it too.
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On August 04 2014 04:39 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 04:31 LSN wrote:
some things to mention:
- mines dealing these big hits again of 17 lings/banes at once
- 1 mine hit in the muta flock in many cases forces all mutalisks to instantly retreat and give terran room for walking forward
- zerg on/off creep performance makes too much of a difference
- zerg aggression/offense/counter attacks are getting more cost unefficient again
- "casual reapers" able to accidently pre-decide games ex nihilo
- offrax still too easy to execute and too hard to defend just like protoss all-ins?
Tho: GG Bunny, hyun obviously was totally clueless in the end what to do against this and the last game was not his a-game anymore. Top to bottom: 1) Zergs got used to mines that were completely and utterly shit. They were random and unreliable before (when they were good) but after the nerf they were random and unreliable and bad even when they hit. Ofcourse they are a big harder to beat once again now, but HyuN was if anything always mediocre with muta/ling/bane to begin with. 2) As previously , now you have to keep an eye on your mutas. You have pneumatized carapace so overseer can fly with mutas and try to snipe mines. The bigger impact I actually see is the Thor. 3) Yes, it does make too much of a difference. The bonus on creep is too much. On creep most battles are completely one sided in favor of Zerg while offcreep they are Terran favored if you COMPARE both scenarios. Zerg is still very capable of taking a good engagement even offcreep. 4) What does make Zerg counterattacks suddenly more cost unefficient again? Even when the mines were as they are now, if you looked at the proscene Zergs could trade cost efficient being 2 upgrades behind, sometimes more, sometimes less which is perfectly viable. 5) I don't even know what "casual reapers" are, but I am pretty sure as I do cast most of pro-level games, that my standard saying is "usually reapers don't even kill one drone" on pro-level, which is the case most of the time. 6) Yes, the only Terran cheese in double 11 is still strong, still defendable and its not a lot easier to execute compared to the hold. What does it make very hard to hold is not having information of it beforehand.
1) well 17 units one shotted is still a bit strong for a 75/25 unit, no?
2) keeping eye on mutas in fight is hardly possible, when you go in you have to use all units and mutalisks cant be spreaded, the additional damage of mines to mutalisks in these army vs army fights mean alot
3) I wonder why you see everything that one sided here. Its not like z can do anything in direct engagement off-creep before the very end-game and the game being already kind of decided.
4) the shifted meta (in progress) of higher unit requirement to defend terran (counter-)attacks (after a Z attack/runby/etc.). It is simply not worth it anymore to attack the terran when you significantly increase your chance to just die due to it few minutes later and anyway have only a very low to not existant chance to do anything with it (this is not refering to hyun roaches, they are made for and have to attack and simply wont be made anymore if this ends up not being viable anymore - but to ling/bane/muta play).
5) casual reapers is what casters said. It is meant like the casual 6-8 zerglings that a zerg builds to scout and get early mapcontrol. Terran can win games with it tho :p
6) I am sure 11/11 is not needed at all for the meta and if unscouted just ends in terran freewin while even if scouted requires heavy efforts and risks from the zerg to defend it. It feels just kinda stupid that terran has an attack where zerg has to use 2/3 of its drones to potentially defend it. In this context its getting quita obvious how much needed the queen buff back in the days was (as well as against protoss early game cheese with cannons or even 4 gate).
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LSN, a proxy 2 gate in base is autolose if not scouted and really hard to defend if scouted.
Same for a 6pool in ZvP.
About the WM : It' not rare to see a HT with 20 kills. Is it a bit strong for a 50/150 unit no ?
And about the reaper, only Hyun lost to them because his control were terrible. Losing 4 drones to 2 reapers not proxied then 8 to 3... Lolwtf.
About hyun's roaches... He does that every single game, ofc Bunny made blind tanks to defend it.
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ye well I really dont like to mix everything together here. So lets leave protoss alone this time and focus on TvZ.
Then I can only reply to the reaper thing:
Sure was terrible control. Still these casual reapers out of nothing can actually pre-decide a game. No big deal tho, just wanted to mention.
Just think about what would be if zerg builded 6-8 casual zerglings and was able t pre-decide the game with it so that terran could hardly, if at all, come back into the game from that.
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Upgrade for Terran for Late game help.
Requirement:
Tech lab attach to factory.
Armory.
Actuator Upgrade: All Terran transformer units (siege tank, Viking) have transforming time reduced by 1 second.
Cost: 200/200 at Tech lab.
On August 04 2014 05:04 Faust852 wrote:
LSN, a proxy 2 gate in base is autolose if not scouted and really hard to defend if scouted.
Same for a 6pool in ZvP.
About the WM : It' not rare to see a HT with 20 kills. Is it a bit strong for a 50/150 unit no ?
And about the reaper, only Hyun lost to them because his control were terrible. Losing 4 drones to 2 reapers not proxied then 8 to 3... Lolwtf.
About hyun's roaches... He does that every single game, ofc Bunny made blind tanks to defend it.
Protoss has always been in what I think is a weird position considering nearly all units ported from SC1 to SC2 had cost increases, except for High templar. Widow Mines have their balance in requiring that dig upgrade to be of any use later game aggressively, and requiring building a decent number of them so that some will survive to shoot off missiles in the face of a large confrontation. They scale in required cost to use well as the game goes on, HTs scale in effectiveness to use as the game goes on. Polar opposites.
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On August 04 2014 04:53 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 04:39 NarutO wrote:On August 04 2014 04:31 LSN wrote:
some things to mention:
- mines dealing these big hits again of 17 lings/banes at once
- 1 mine hit in the muta flock in many cases forces all mutalisks to instantly retreat and give terran room for walking forward
- zerg on/off creep performance makes too much of a difference
- zerg aggression/offense/counter attacks are getting more cost unefficient again
- "casual reapers" able to accidently pre-decide games ex nihilo
- offrax still too easy to execute and too hard to defend just like protoss all-ins?
Tho: GG Bunny, hyun obviously was totally clueless in the end what to do against this and the last game was not his a-game anymore. Top to bottom: 1) Zergs got used to mines that were completely and utterly shit. They were random and unreliable before (when they were good) but after the nerf they were random and unreliable and bad even when they hit. Ofcourse they are a big harder to beat once again now, but HyuN was if anything always mediocre with muta/ling/bane to begin with. 2) As previously , now you have to keep an eye on your mutas. You have pneumatized carapace so overseer can fly with mutas and try to snipe mines. The bigger impact I actually see is the Thor. 3) Yes, it does make too much of a difference. The bonus on creep is too much. On creep most battles are completely one sided in favor of Zerg while offcreep they are Terran favored if you COMPARE both scenarios. Zerg is still very capable of taking a good engagement even offcreep. 4) What does make Zerg counterattacks suddenly more cost unefficient again? Even when the mines were as they are now, if you looked at the proscene Zergs could trade cost efficient being 2 upgrades behind, sometimes more, sometimes less which is perfectly viable. 5) I don't even know what "casual reapers" are, but I am pretty sure as I do cast most of pro-level games, that my standard saying is "usually reapers don't even kill one drone" on pro-level, which is the case most of the time. 6) Yes, the only Terran cheese in double 11 is still strong, still defendable and its not a lot easier to execute compared to the hold. What does it make very hard to hold is not having information of it beforehand. 1) well 17 units one shotted is still a bit strong for a 75/25 unit, no? 2) keeping eye on mutas in fight is hardly possible, when you go in you have to use all units and mutalisks cant be spreaded, the additional damage of mines to mutalisks in these army vs army fights mean alot 3) I wonder why you see everything that one sided here (like exclusively everywhere else when it gets to TvX balance discussion). Its not like z can do anything direct engagement off-creep before the very end-game and the game being decided already before. 4) the shifted meta (in future) of higher unit requirement to defend terran counter-attacks (after a Z attack/runby/etc.). It is simply not worth it anymore to attack the terran when you increase your chance to just die due to it significantly few minutes later and anyway have only a very low to not existant chance to do anything with it (this is not refering to hyun roaches, but to ling/bane/muta). 5) casual reapers is what casters said 6) I am sure 11/11 is not needed at all for the meta and if unscouted just ends in terran freewin while even if scouted requires heavy efforts and risks from the zerg to defend it. It feels just kinda stupid that terran has an attack where zerg has to use 2/3 of its drones to potentially defend it. In this context its getting quita obvious how much needed the queen buff back in the days was (as well as against protoss early game cheese with cannons or even 4 gate).
I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo.
1) Yes, ofcourse a mine hit can be devastating. The same applies to a 2 baneling mine which detonates below 25 marines and shreds them to pieces. A more abstract scenario would be a nuke hitting an army. Zergs split banelings in the past and learned how to engage mine-fields, they will get there again. If you want to tell me its too random and too powerful, I can relate to what you want to adress, but if you want to remove this, please adress the issue that Terran has no reliable source of average-destruction like we used in WoL (the tank) because it is simply to immobile and weak now.
2) I am pretty sure a player like Sacsri who averages about 350apm and peaks about 500 is capable of taking care of mutas in the fight itself. The Thor-change is far superior and far more crippling to muta count compared to the mine. If you believe its too hard to take care of mutas, is it too hard for you or for whom? If Starcraft is a too hard game for someone, I would suggest picking a more casual game. Splitting oncreep against speed banes is nearly unreasonable and still Terrans try to minimize the damage and split as well as possible. Ofcourse the perfect Terran would deny creepspread, but in lots of games you simply cannot deny it all the time at any place and you need to make the choice to make the move on creep or let the Zerg freely do what he feels is right.
3) I am not exactly sure what you mean. I am not having a one-sided view on it. As I mentioned I believe the bonus on creep is too powerful which makes the offcreep engagements look rather unreasonable and weak. If Zerg were a bit quicker overall, but wouldn't receive a bonus on speed it would work for me. I still feel like a good Zerg can also get a good engagement set up offcreep. Ofcourse its way harder, but that is Blizzards intention I guess.
4) Yes - if you counter attack like HyuN while being down on units, its not worth it. Absolutely true. But that is decisionmaking. Once in a while there is a situation of Protoss pressuring Terran - you can decide if those 8 marines in the medivac that you send over, already being low on units make a bigger difference compared to 8 marines being at your bunkers to defend what is coming.
It really is just a simple choice. Zerg usually has good map awareness and should be able to figure out what Terran has and is capable of. It is your decision now what you can send. Do you really believe 8 Zerglings away from your army make the difference? I do not. There is still harass viable, even though I agree that Zergs are not once again under more pressure, when they previously had too much freedom to do what they like.
5) I don't really mind what casters say, usually reapers don't even snipe a drone. If they do - most of the time its a screwup (and seen as this) by the Zerg)
6) Its not a freewin and the last example that would come to mind is LiquidRet vs M_Dayshi from last WCS Challenger Day. It was unscouted and successful in taking down the hatch, Dayshi still lost the game. You don't have to like 11/11 and I agree that its a good strategy, but if you also take that away from Terran the only strategy viable to pressure early would be a huge commited reaper-cheese. Result would be simple; 15 hatch, 17 gas, 17 pool or other greedy builds. 11/11 is 'needed' to not have Zergs do whatever they like and enforce actual gameplay instead of a headstart for the other race.
The same reason applies to the pool - should we simply enforce that you need 14 drones to build a pool? If a Zerg likes to play 6 7 8 9 or 10 pool, so be it. I cannot blindly CC first on the lowground and be "SAVE". If I want to be "SAVE" I need to wall-CC-first.
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So, you know that 6p might cost the game even against terran if they CC first or even reaper if well executed and not scouted?
Casual reaper means nothing. A terran can lose to 10 speedling harass if he doesn't react like he should so your argument is stupid.
I edited about the roach stuff : About hyun's roaches... He does that every single game, ofc Bunny made blind tanks to defend it.
And for the WM, 17 it is kinda the ideal shot you can have, and it's usually thanks to focus fire. So yes it deal a big amount of damage but it's also 2 supply that will die after almost everytime and it's the only viable AoE we got against glingbanemuta.
And about the muta/thor relation : It's not impossible to keep an eyes on your muta, just check Snute play, he micro them perfectly and almost never lose muta to thor. It just come to control.
Before the patch, all the control were to the terran, now it's split between both race : fair isn't it ?
So all in all I don't see any imbalance, the best player won. Snute rekt MMA in macro game, and Bunny said he feared to play macro against Snute so he cheesed him. Hyun was terrible in the finale, and his style was predictable from far so Bunny played accordingly and won with better control, better macro and better preparation. That's all.
For Naruto : LSN has admited not playing the game for years and barely watching it.
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LSN, it was very clear to most watching that Hyun was sub-par with his ling/bling/muta control today. Taking engagements with slow banes off creep? Check. Repeatedly A-moving his whole army into 3 or 4 mines that he saw planted right in front of him? Check. How else do you think that widow mine managed to get 17 kills in one hit?
Go back and watch the old DRG vs Innovation vods, you'll notice DRG splits his army up in tiny chunks to engage the Terran army head-to-head, instead of A-moving the whole thing. This results in mines detonating on smaller amounts of Zerg units at a time, giving maximum amount of friendly fire from the mines, and results in Terran still being unable to push forward because there is still a larger chunk of banelings in front of him that he can't engage because his mines are now off of cooldown. Hyun did none of those things today, just A-move into terrible, terrible self defeat.
Oh, and on your comment on a 75/25 unit killing 17 units: In the final game, I guarantee had Hyun paid attention to his burrowed banelings at the moment when Bunny had his whole army standing over them, that 100/50 cost of 2 banelings would have resulted in over 20 marine kills, and 20 marines cost a lot more than 17 zerglings. Pretty good for 100/50, right?
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EPT
