EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1041
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geokilla
Canada8246 Posts
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On July 29 2014 23:04 parkufarku wrote: This post should be bolded. Anyone who tries to use Aligulac to cite "data" should be labeled as a biased poster. Aligulac is the worst database to cite, and you only really cite it to try to prove your point (a.k.a. Terrans trying to defend their race). I mean, come on, using WOL in the data? lol that's just laughable. Aligulac is a great tool. And as for each tool, the results you get depends on how well you use it. There are filters you can use to filter out WoL games, to filter out online games, to filter out korean vs foreigner games, etc... You should respect how much work the people working on it have put in. It's a wonderful ressource (as long as it is used correctly). | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On July 29 2014 23:24 LoneYoShi wrote: Aligulac is a great tool. And as for each tool, the results you get depends on how well you use it. There are filters you can use to filter out WoL games, to filter out online games, to filter out korean vs foreigner games, etc... You should respect how much work the people working on it have put in. It's a wonderful ressource (as long as it is used correctly). I won't name names but some users on this thread have been using it incorrectly (without filters) to try to use it as evidence to support their race-biased arguments...honestly any ladder matches should not be used as indication of balance. Because skill level overcomes balance until you get to pro levels. If there is imbalance in the lower levels, you can always improve your skills to overcome it. We should be taking data from highest pro matches as solid data, not ladder matches or lower leagues or online cups or lower tournaments. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On July 30 2014 01:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Do name names. And quotes please. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On July 30 2014 01:17 plogamer wrote: And quotes please. On July 30 2014 01:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Do name names. Nah. I'm not going to get into trouble, but thanks for trying to bait me. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On July 30 2014 04:08 parkufarku wrote: Nah. I'm not going to get into trouble, but thanks for trying to bait me. I was trying to help you actually. Quoting specific posts to point out flawed usage of the Aligulac's statistics is better than to accuse people broadly and vaguely. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On July 29 2014 06:33 Big J wrote: Early game is a mess and midgame is stale. I guess it's actually mechanically great in the midgame if it is roach vs roach and if someone guarantees me that I'd get there somewhat evenly, I'd put up with it. But as is, I have no interest at all playing against the mass zergling, ling/baneling, slightly later LB, slightly earlier LB, early pool, even earlier pool, early pool with speed, early pool with banes all day long. And yes, I think a big part of those strategies do rely on coinflips. There's not a single thing telling me that the 10eggs he starts are zerglings, when I have to decide upon 10lings or drones as well. And I believe people play so retartedly, because they dont want to put up with the matchup and rather just gamble on something. Not to mention that it is the only of my 6matchups that Im sometimes too slow to leave before my opponent has already. (Not quite true. Has happened in TvT once or twice too) WoL ZvZ was a thousand times better. It's the one matchup they really fucked up in HotS. Not that it was amazing to begin with, but roach/hydra/infestor posturing with infestor harass and roach runbies were a more interesting macro style and 2basish infestor builds prevented that you always had to just match each yolo attack with mass units of your own. Ah see youre missing out on the nuances of the mu. Any early pool can basically be help off with just your drones, so the first real threat is a mass speedling all in, which is scoutable (sometimes barely on 4v4 maps). To me, ZvZ is all about reactions and who makes the correct decisions in a timely manner. Your army is virtually never going to just get wiped off the map in 2 seconds like happens to other races (cough TvP cough) so its all about positioning and decision making. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
Solution: Give reaper an emp grenade ability with 30 second cooldown. The emp grenade drains 100 energy and shields from a single target. | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
Everything is slower for Terran. | ||
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Awin
France65 Posts
-impossibility to agress in early game because of MsC -incredible amounts of all in the protoss can make -Protoss death ball very difficult to engage + zealots run by in late game (even more difficult to handle as zerg without planetary forteress and the lack of mobility of tier 3 zergs units such as ultras, swarm hosts or brood lords) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 30 2014 18:34 Awin wrote: Terrans seem sometimes to forget that zergs encounter the EXACT same difficulties against protoss : -impossibility to agress in early game because of MsC -incredible amounts of all in the protoss can make -Protoss death ball very difficult to engage + zealots run by in late game (even more difficult to handle as zerg without planetary forteress and the lack of mobility of tier 3 zergs units such as ultras, swarm hosts or brood lords) I step out of a 10pool game that I won and what I read is another one of those bullshit complaints that zerg cannot be aggressive vs Protoss. Unless you want to have as many bullshit coinflips -that do nothing for the game, but make it shit to play- as Protoss has, you have to agree Zerg has a fine amount of aggression in the early-midgame. Early pool, certain roach attacks are OK. To play macro the Protoss has to get a 3rd base nexus before 10mins which you can pressure pretty well. very early speed attacks. And so on. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 30 2014 18:38 Big J wrote: I step out of a 10pool game that I won and what I read is another one of those bullshit complaints that zerg cannot be aggressive vs Protoss. Unless you want to have as many bullshit coinflips -that do nothing for the game, but make it shit to play- as Protoss has, you have to agree Zerg has a fine amount of aggression in the early-midgame. Early pool, certain roach attacks are OK. To play macro the Protoss has to get a 3rd base nexus before 10mins which you can pressure pretty well. very early speed attacks. And so on. Don't forget Zerg can pull to lategame faster with a decent economic and have a lead in that department, whilst the Terran lategame is horrendous. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On July 30 2014 13:20 Loccstana wrote: Problem: Mothership core makes Terran unable to attack Protoss in early game due to 1 button click defense. Solution: Give reaper an emp grenade ability with 30 second cooldown. The emp grenade drains 100 energy and shields from a single target. Main downside of this is that it competes with the Ghost EMP ability. It would also be pretty OP to mix just 2-3 Reapers in any early Bio push as you could instantly neutralize the MSC and any Immortal shields. It would also mean a single scouting Reaper kept alive could deny the MSC entirely as it takes far more than 30 seconds to regenerate 100 energy. (you could whack it twice in 30 seconds) I'd instead propose slowing the MSC down to the old Overlord speed (around 0.88) and adding a MSC speed upgrade to the Cybernetics Core at 50/50/110. It would delay any straight up MSC attack on the mineral line by quite a bit and by putting the upgrade at the Cybernetics Core you cannot have Warp Gate and MSC Speed at the same time early on, weakening a Blink all-in. It wouldn't weaken any defensive play with the MSC as you can still park it between the main and the natural to cast Photon Overcharge, but with the offensive aspect of the MSC thusly reduced, Terran is given more freedom in the early game. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 30 2014 20:30 Thezzy wrote: Main downside of this is that it competes with the Ghost EMP ability. It would also be pretty OP to mix just 2-3 Reapers in any early Bio push as you could instantly neutralize the MSC and any Immortal shields. It would also mean a single scouting Reaper kept alive could deny the MSC entirely as it takes far more than 30 seconds to regenerate 100 energy. (you could whack it twice in 30 seconds) I'd instead propose slowing the MSC down to the old Overlord speed (around 0.88) and adding a MSC speed upgrade to the Cybernetics Core at 50/50/110. It would delay any straight up MSC attack on the mineral line by quite a bit and by putting the upgrade at the Cybernetics Core you cannot have Warp Gate and MSC Speed at the same time early on, weakening a Blink all-in. It wouldn't weaken any defensive play with the MSC as you can still park it between the main and the natural to cast Photon Overcharge, but with the offensive aspect of the MSC thusly reduced, Terran is given more freedom in the early game. MSC main purpose is scouting too, don't forget that. Why upgrade speed when everything you need on actual maps is technology enabling time warp. I haven't seen any big blink all-in lately on new maps and without TW it is a lot weaker, so it could be enough by itself. I don't get why people insists on making units less responsive and microable... | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 30 2014 21:12 deacon.frost wrote: MSC main purpose is scouting too, don't forget that. Why upgrade speed when everything you need on actual maps is technology enabling time warp. I haven't seen any big blink all-in lately on new maps and without TW it is a lot weaker, so it could be enough by itself. I don't get why people insists on making units less responsive and microable... I don't get scouted with MSC that often, they seem to do fine without it. They actually don't have to scout anything with MSC. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On July 30 2014 21:12 deacon.frost wrote: MSC main purpose is scouting too, don't forget that. Why upgrade speed when everything you need on actual maps is technology enabling time warp. I haven't seen any big blink all-in lately on new maps and without TW it is a lot weaker, so it could be enough by itself. I don't get why people insists on making units less responsive and microable... Considering that the original Mothership Core was stuck on a Nexus and that Hallucination upgrade was removed and given to the Sentry for free, I would hardly consider the MSC's purpose to be scouting. A single Sentry can create a hallucinated Phoenix and scout his heart out. It isn't just that the MSC provides Time Warp but that it provides consistent high ground vision (removing the need for a Robo + Observer), has an attack of its own and can still perform Recall / Photon Overcharge. | ||
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ETisME
12714 Posts
Oracle was to give protoss a more multi tasking heavy harassment unit. MsC was to help protoss to move out and not get caught out of positioned. Both units were aimed to fixed the three big issue that Protoss has in WoL: It is risky to move out due to it not being mobile enough. Little harassment options (also see warp prism and DT buff) Help to "fix" PvP, this includes scouting. | ||
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HallofPain
Japan16 Posts
Here are some ideas that would make Mech better while not breaking the game perhaps? Thorships - while Medivac is loaded with a Thor, the Thor takes damage instead of the Medivac. There's a reason Thors are nogood against anything other than Mutalisks : they are too slow and too clanky. They are usually out of position when a fight occurs and there's nothing you can do about it. This change is meant to let T position Thors where they are supposed to be(in the front line) easier. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 30 2014 23:10 ETisME wrote: You can see what Blizzard tried to do with the design of Mothership Core and Oracle. Oracle was to give protoss a more multi tasking heavy harassment unit. MsC was to help protoss to move out and not get caught out of positioned. Both units were aimed to fixed the three big issue that Protoss has in WoL: It is risky to move out due to it not being mobile enough. Little harassment options (also see warp prism and DT buff) Help to "fix" PvP, this includes scouting. And I think they did a good job with the MsC. Recall attacking/defending is a pretty exciting type of gameplay. The Nexus Canon makes it possible to take third bases against Zerg on time and helps somewhat with early PvP aggression and also allows the HotS medivac to be as strong as it is. Imo, the Nexus Canon's main powerproblem is how much range it actually has. Once you are in the mineral line, you are not getting away with a banshee or a dropship. Even with insta-reaction, the radius is just so big that your harass unit cannot retreat. And even if you bring siege weapons, you are still going to get shot. Obviously this is somewhat important for PvP, so that your main base is protected early on. Still wish they'd find a different solution for PvP, especially since it is a mirror matchup and even with the PO, it's not like we'd sacrifice one of the better MUs. | ||
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