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On August 04 2014 04:38 r691175002 wrote:
The patch was clearly targeted at TvZ and had a substantial effect there.
The widow mine buff went pretty much as expected. It doesn't seem like much when you are watching the fights, but a single lucky hit can kill 15+ units which starts a snowball effect. I feel like I have watched many close TvZ games whose outcome was changed by the new widow mine.
The thor patch has made a surprisingly large difference in my mind, since I was expecting it to do nothing. Zerg players generally target their mutas on medivacs/mines which causes a clump. Even two thor hits on stacked mutas is game-changing.
PvT still feels retarded. Its not even about the win rates, its just how the game progresses. Terran needs to survive one of numerous possible (frequently unscoutable) cheeses, and then score a bop or svc pull in the midgame. Otherwise its just an automatic loss.
I feel this matchup is too buildorder dependent and is often decided simply by what a player lucks into scouting.
I can agree to the WM. It sometimes keeps me in games I've lost far longer because having a random spread of WMs around and a bunch of lings on a move means about 20 lings die every time.
I try to use WM's more spread out in the idea to attrition the zerg army as it moves to attack so that by the time it reaches my base, it's far more damaged and many units are dead. Sometimes that's the only way I've stopped all-in bane sling busts, getting those reinforcements before they even reach my base.
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On August 04 2014 05:15 Faust852 wrote:So, you know that 6p might cost the game even against terran if they CC first or even reaper if well executed and not scouted? Casual reaper means nothing. A terran can lose to 10 speedling harass if he doesn't react like he should so your argument is stupid. I edited about the roach stuff : Show nested quote +About hyun's roaches... He does that every single game, ofc Bunny made blind tanks to defend it. And for the WM, 17 it is kinda the ideal shot you can have, and it's usually thanks to focus fire. So yes it deal a big amount of damage but it's also 2 supply that will die after almost everytime and it's the only viable AoE we got against glingbanemuta. And about the muta/thor relation : It's not impossible to keep an eyes on your muta, just check Snute play, he micro them perfectly and almost never lose muta to thor. It just come to control. Before the patch, all the control were to the terran, now it's split between both race : fair isn't it ? So all in all I don't see any imbalance, the best player won. Snute rekt MMA in macro game, and Bunny said he feared to play macro against Snute so he cheesed him. Hyun was terrible in the finale, and his style was predictable from far so Bunny played accordingly and won with better control, better macro and better preparation. That's all. For Naruto : LSN has admited not playing the game for years and barely watching it.
So the best player didn't win, but lost to random luck-strategies? I rather think that Bunny was the best player. 
But people make a much bigger deal out of it than it is. Bunny has been playing amazing for a while know and a slightly more favorable balance for him (compared to before to prefix) is really more than enough for such a strong player. People are quick to forget that Terran foreigners didn't win since Thorzain, because suffering of UPness at the end of WoL, while in HotS not a single foreigner has won a Premier Tournament - which includes Terrans - and Terran hasn't been doing greatly regardless of foreign or Korean in the last months.
Really, this differentiation between foreigner and Korean Terran needs to stop. When a race is in trouble, it's weaker players are in trouble too, which means the foreigners. Korean Terrans can go abroad and crush foreign Premier Tournaments, but people like Lucifron at the end of WoL couldn't take titles, while without a skewed balance they might have (seeing how close some got).
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Lets see how all this is gonna unfold. I just noted some simple observations.
Naruto wants to fight, so I gonna pick this up and answer it adequately:
I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo.
So you wanna say you can judge about my knowledge of the game more than I can judge about the game itself? I have never been a progamer and nor have you when closely looking at it. If that was required, anyhow, every developer needed to be a pro-gamer. Furthermore your knowledge seems to be not that great when you ask me why zerg attacks against terrans become less cost efficient in a meta that shift towards zergs needing generally more units to hold terran attacks. Answer: The amount of required damage being done by the zerg with these attacks just increases.
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On August 04 2014 05:32 LSN wrote:Lets see how all this is gonna unfold. I just noted some simple observations. Naruto wants to fight, so I gonna pick this up and answer it adequately: Show nested quote +I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo. So you wanna say you can judge about my knowledge of the game more than I can judge about the game itself? I have never been a progamer and nor have you when closely looking at it. If that was required, anyhow, every developer needed to be a pro-gamer. Furthermore your knowledge seems to be not that great when you ask me why zerg attacks against terrans become less cost efficient in a meta that shift towards zergs needing generally more units to hold terran attacks.
I have been a pro - like it or not. No closely looking at it will help. Same pattern as every time. I write an essay adressing your arguments and counter them. You pick the line you like and try to dismiss me with it. Go ahead and point out the flaws in the arguments I made or stop brining up a discussion you seemingly don't want to take.
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Well everything has been said. You move not at all away from your bias (noticed again at the creep thing). I stated some observations that imo could be problematic. I am afraid we gotta leave it like that until next time.
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On August 04 2014 05:36 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:32 LSN wrote:Lets see how all this is gonna unfold. I just noted some simple observations. Naruto wants to fight, so I gonna pick this up and answer it adequately: I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo. So you wanna say you can judge about my knowledge of the game more than I can judge about the game itself? I have never been a progamer and nor have you when closely looking at it. If that was required, anyhow, every developer needed to be a pro-gamer. Furthermore your knowledge seems to be not that great when you ask me why zerg attacks against terrans become less cost efficient in a meta that shift towards zergs needing generally more units to hold terran attacks. I have been a pro - like it or not. No closely looking at it will help. Same pattern as every time. I write an essay adressing your arguments and counter them. You pick the line you like and try to dismiss me with it. Go ahead and point out the flaws in the arguments I made or stop brining up a discussion you seemingly don't want to take.
i read your arguments and they are impenetrable my friend
11 11 rax can kill a zerg on certain maps if zerg doesnt scout properly. early aggression and scouting is part of the game.
when i reaper expand i send out a scv scout to see zergs base if hes doing something funny.
for example if zerg goes 14pool and makes 6 lings, dodges the first reaper in the middle of the map (with help of the overlord) he will get a guarantee cancel on my command center in the natural base.
so by not scouting as terran you can be punished even with a reaper expand, with 14cc you also have to scout to be safe. so why is it so weird that zerg has to scout as well to be absolutely safe in early game LSN?
hyun wasnt playing roach antics beacuse he thinks macro game is not viable. he does it beacuse thats what hyun does. his playstyle was been this way forever and watching him play normal zvt on nimbus and catallena was quite sad, it looks subpar to the zergs i meet on the ladder. then you watch him play his own playstyle on like merry go round and he kills bunny with 2-2 roach hydra timing even though bunny saw it coming and had siege tanks, goes to show that hyun is clearly just better at that playstyle
also saying a widow mine 25/75 shouldnt be capable of killing 17 lings instantly is hilarious because thats exactly what terran has to deal with - all game long in every matchup against storm and banelings. this is just how the game works with aoe and your forced to keep good attention on your army at all times
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On August 04 2014 05:45 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:36 NarutO wrote:On August 04 2014 05:32 LSN wrote:Lets see how all this is gonna unfold. I just noted some simple observations. Naruto wants to fight, so I gonna pick this up and answer it adequately: I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo. So you wanna say you can judge about my knowledge of the game more than I can judge about the game itself? I have never been a progamer and nor have you when closely looking at it. If that was required, anyhow, every developer needed to be a pro-gamer. Furthermore your knowledge seems to be not that great when you ask me why zerg attacks against terrans become less cost efficient in a meta that shift towards zergs needing generally more units to hold terran attacks. I have been a pro - like it or not. No closely looking at it will help. Same pattern as every time. I write an essay adressing your arguments and counter them. You pick the line you like and try to dismiss me with it. Go ahead and point out the flaws in the arguments I made or stop brining up a discussion you seemingly don't want to take. i read your arguments and they are impenetrable my friend 11 11 rax can kill a zerg on certain maps if zerg doesnt scout properly. early aggression and scouting is part of the game. when i reaper expand i send out a scv scout to see zergs base if hes doing something funny. for example if zerg goes 14pool and makes 6 lings, dodges the first reaper in the middle of the map (with help of the overlord) he will get a guarantee cancel on my command center in the natural base. so by not scouting as terran you can be punished even with a reaper expand, with 14cc you also have to scout to be safe. so why is it so weird that zerg has to scout as well to be absolutely safe in early game LSN? hyun wasnt playing roach antics beacuse he thinks macro game is not viable. he does it beacuse thats what hyun does. his playstyle was been this way forever and watching him play normal zvt on nimbus and catallena was quite sad, it looks subpar to the zergs i meet on the ladder. then you watch him play his own playstyle on like merry go round and he kills bunny with 2-2 roach hydra timing even though bunny saw it coming and had siege tanks, goes to show that hyun is clearly just better at that playstyle
Diary of a now-caster. Day 394583
Got called friend by MorroW. Ranks right after followed by broodwar legend Stork  !
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On August 04 2014 04:53 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 04:39 NarutO wrote:On August 04 2014 04:31 LSN wrote:
some things to mention:
- mines dealing these big hits again of 17 lings/banes at once
- 1 mine hit in the muta flock in many cases forces all mutalisks to instantly retreat and give terran room for walking forward
- zerg on/off creep performance makes too much of a difference
- zerg aggression/offense/counter attacks are getting more cost unefficient again
- "casual reapers" able to accidently pre-decide games ex nihilo
- offrax still too easy to execute and too hard to defend just like protoss all-ins?
Tho: GG Bunny, hyun obviously was totally clueless in the end what to do against this and the last game was not his a-game anymore. Top to bottom: 1) Zergs got used to mines that were completely and utterly shit. They were random and unreliable before (when they were good) but after the nerf they were random and unreliable and bad even when they hit. Ofcourse they are a big harder to beat once again now, but HyuN was if anything always mediocre with muta/ling/bane to begin with. 2) As previously , now you have to keep an eye on your mutas. You have pneumatized carapace so overseer can fly with mutas and try to snipe mines. The bigger impact I actually see is the Thor. 3) Yes, it does make too much of a difference. The bonus on creep is too much. On creep most battles are completely one sided in favor of Zerg while offcreep they are Terran favored if you COMPARE both scenarios. Zerg is still very capable of taking a good engagement even offcreep. 4) What does make Zerg counterattacks suddenly more cost unefficient again? Even when the mines were as they are now, if you looked at the proscene Zergs could trade cost efficient being 2 upgrades behind, sometimes more, sometimes less which is perfectly viable. 5) I don't even know what "casual reapers" are, but I am pretty sure as I do cast most of pro-level games, that my standard saying is "usually reapers don't even kill one drone" on pro-level, which is the case most of the time. 6) Yes, the only Terran cheese in double 11 is still strong, still defendable and its not a lot easier to execute compared to the hold. What does it make very hard to hold is not having information of it beforehand. 1) well 17 units one shotted is still a bit strong for a 75/25 unit, no? 2) keeping eye on mutas in fight is hardly possible, when you go in you have to use all units and mutalisks cant be spreaded, the additional damage of mines to mutalisks in these army vs army fights mean alot 3) I wonder why you see everything that one sided here. Its not like z can do anything in direct engagement off-creep before the very end-game and the game being already kind of decided. 4) the shifted meta (in progress) of higher unit requirement to defend terran (counter-)attacks (after a Z attack/runby/etc.). It is simply not worth it anymore to attack the terran when you significantly increase your chance to just die due to it few minutes later and anyway have only a very low to not existant chance to do anything with it (this is not refering to hyun roaches, they are made for and have to attack and simply wont be made anymore if this ends up not being viable anymore - but to ling/bane/muta play). 5) casual reapers is what casters said. It is meant like the casual 6-8 zerglings that a zerg builds to scout and get early mapcontrol. Terran can win games with it tho :p 6) I am sure 11/11 is not needed at all for the meta and if unscouted just ends in terran freewin while even if scouted requires heavy efforts and risks from the zerg to defend it. It feels just kinda stupid that terran has an attack where zerg has to use 2/3 of its drones to potentially defend it. In this context its getting quita obvious how much needed the queen buff back in the days was (as well as against protoss early game cheese with cannons or even 4 gate).
I love how half of these answers miss the points entirely
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@morrow
I don't know why zergs usually don't drone scout and only do this when they expect smth. to happen.
Maybe because offraxes on many maps could be at more locations than the zerg is capable of scouting decently? Also when facing 11/11 offraxes, it might be quite helpful to have these extra minerals from this one drone instead?
I can't up with anything else reasonable.
Sure lings can cancel a CC but probably don't end the game.
It is at least questionable (and this is what I pointed out) if games like bunny vs snute should end like 2 of them did. It is something to consider in the future again when the meta shifts more towards the terran side as it does imo.
@naruto
it is simply irrelevant who calls you friend or liked your page in this discussion.
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On August 04 2014 05:53 LSN wrote:
I don't know why zergs usually don't drone scout and only do this when they expect smth. like this to happen.
Maybe because offraxes on many maps could be at more locations than the zerg is capable of scouting decently. Also when facing 11/11 offraxes, it might be quite helpful to have these extra minerals from this one drone instead?
I can't up with anything else reasnable.
Sure lings can cancel a CC but probably don't end the game.
It is at least questionable (and this is what I pointed out) if games like bunny vs snute should end like 2 of them did. It is something to consider in the future again when the meta shifts more towards the terran side imo.
yes the drone scout around for proxies is a hit or miss, thats why its more solid to scout terrans spawn position instead. i dont know if you were around in WoL but there it was pretty common for zergs to drone scout in some variation. as the maps got bigger and 11 11 stopped working so commonly zergs stopped scouting as frequently. this movement of strategy is called meta-game changing.
a drone scout to opponents base at 2 player map costs about 100 minerals and the incentive not to scout every game. so as a zerg player they want the extra money to put them in a solid position in the game and 11 11 is so rare that they almost never do it. what some zergs do these days that they didnt really do in WoL is to 14pool blindly because its strong against 11 11 and can (as mentioned in earlier post) go up against other terran builds decently.
6 lings canceling the CC in the expansion and killing the scv is game-ending in the top of pro play
lastly i want to add if its not a 2 player map (so a 4 player map) terran will need to 11 11 in the center of the map. but the rally distance then is too far to make it work even if its unscouted almost every time
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On August 04 2014 05:53 LSN wrote:
@morrow
I don't know why zergs usually don't drone scout and only do this when they expect smth. like this to happen.
Maybe because offraxes on many maps could be at more locations than the zerg is capable of scouting decently? Also when facing 11/11 offraxes, it might be quite helpful to have these extra minerals from this one drone instead?
I can't up with anything else reasonable.
Sure lings can cancel a CC but probably don't end the game.
It is at least questionable (and this is what I pointed out) if games like bunny vs snute should end like 2 of them did. It is something to consider in the future again when the meta shifts more towards the terran side as it does imo.
@naruto
it is simply irrelevant who calls you friend or liked your page in this discussion.
You are not part of the discussion. I pointed out and wrote down lots of arguments. You call out to me as not being an active progamer and not being a former one. Well then, MorroW does join here who is being an active pro and Terran since Broodwar. He seems to think my arguments are reasonable - why are you not adressing it now? Either stick to your word and quit it or finally take part in a real discussion.
I am very open and willing to discuss if you can bring arguments. Right now you are simply accusing people of being biased. If Snute or any other active pro wants to step in, feel free to join. I am willing to listen and also change opinion on the matter of TvZ, yet all I can see is you getting only contra. Do you really believe its because you are the only one to realize what is happening in Starcraft and all others are wrong?!
Please - adress the 6 points I raised in the reply to your post.
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On August 04 2014 05:45 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:36 NarutO wrote:On August 04 2014 05:32 LSN wrote:Lets see how all this is gonna unfold. I just noted some simple observations. Naruto wants to fight, so I gonna pick this up and answer it adequately: I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo. So you wanna say you can judge about my knowledge of the game more than I can judge about the game itself? I have never been a progamer and nor have you when closely looking at it. If that was required, anyhow, every developer needed to be a pro-gamer. Furthermore your knowledge seems to be not that great when you ask me why zerg attacks against terrans become less cost efficient in a meta that shift towards zergs needing generally more units to hold terran attacks. I have been a pro - like it or not. No closely looking at it will help. Same pattern as every time. I write an essay adressing your arguments and counter them. You pick the line you like and try to dismiss me with it. Go ahead and point out the flaws in the arguments I made or stop brining up a discussion you seemingly don't want to take. i read your arguments and they are impenetrable my friend 11 11 rax can kill a zerg on certain maps if zerg doesnt scout properly. early aggression and scouting is part of the game. when i reaper expand i send out a scv scout to see zergs base if hes doing something funny. for example if zerg goes 14pool and makes 6 lings, dodges the first reaper in the middle of the map (with help of the overlord) he will get a guarantee cancel on my command center in the natural base. so by not scouting as terran you can be punished even with a reaper expand, with 14cc you also have to scout to be safe. so why is it so weird that zerg has to scout as well to be absolutely safe in early game LSN? hyun wasnt playing roach antics beacuse he thinks macro game is not viable. he does it beacuse thats what hyun does. his playstyle was been this way forever and watching him play normal zvt on nimbus and catallena was quite sad, it looks subpar to the zergs i meet on the ladder. then you watch him play his own playstyle on like merry go round and he kills bunny with 2-2 roach hydra timing even though bunny saw it coming and had siege tanks, goes to show that hyun is clearly just better at that playstyle also saying a widow mine 25/75 shouldnt be capable of killing 17 lings instantly is hilarious because thats exactly what terran has to deal with - all game long in every matchup against storm and banelings. this is just how the game works with aoe and your forced to keep good attention on your army at all times
Not calling imbalance or anything like that, but note that a widow mine does this kind of splash to everything - ground, air, armored, light - and has a main target damage value too. While a baneling only does this kind of damage to light, ground units and has no such high damage capability against main targets, for a compareable price.
And I hate to repeat myself, but you are not forced to play with marines in TvZ. So you can completely skip on the watch-out-for-banes play, if you dont like it.
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On August 04 2014 06:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 05:45 MorroW wrote:On August 04 2014 05:36 NarutO wrote:On August 04 2014 05:32 LSN wrote:Lets see how all this is gonna unfold. I just noted some simple observations. Naruto wants to fight, so I gonna pick this up and answer it adequately: I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo. So you wanna say you can judge about my knowledge of the game more than I can judge about the game itself? I have never been a progamer and nor have you when closely looking at it. If that was required, anyhow, every developer needed to be a pro-gamer. Furthermore your knowledge seems to be not that great when you ask me why zerg attacks against terrans become less cost efficient in a meta that shift towards zergs needing generally more units to hold terran attacks. I have been a pro - like it or not. No closely looking at it will help. Same pattern as every time. I write an essay adressing your arguments and counter them. You pick the line you like and try to dismiss me with it. Go ahead and point out the flaws in the arguments I made or stop brining up a discussion you seemingly don't want to take. i read your arguments and they are impenetrable my friend 11 11 rax can kill a zerg on certain maps if zerg doesnt scout properly. early aggression and scouting is part of the game. when i reaper expand i send out a scv scout to see zergs base if hes doing something funny. for example if zerg goes 14pool and makes 6 lings, dodges the first reaper in the middle of the map (with help of the overlord) he will get a guarantee cancel on my command center in the natural base. so by not scouting as terran you can be punished even with a reaper expand, with 14cc you also have to scout to be safe. so why is it so weird that zerg has to scout as well to be absolutely safe in early game LSN? hyun wasnt playing roach antics beacuse he thinks macro game is not viable. he does it beacuse thats what hyun does. his playstyle was been this way forever and watching him play normal zvt on nimbus and catallena was quite sad, it looks subpar to the zergs i meet on the ladder. then you watch him play his own playstyle on like merry go round and he kills bunny with 2-2 roach hydra timing even though bunny saw it coming and had siege tanks, goes to show that hyun is clearly just better at that playstyle also saying a widow mine 25/75 shouldnt be capable of killing 17 lings instantly is hilarious because thats exactly what terran has to deal with - all game long in every matchup against storm and banelings. this is just how the game works with aoe and your forced to keep good attention on your army at all times Not calling imbalance or anything like that, but note that a widow mine does this kind of splash to everything - ground, air, armored, light - and has a main target damage value too. While a baneling only does this kind of damage to light, ground units and has no such high damage capability against main targets, for a compareable price. And I hate to repeat myself, but you are not forced to play with marines in TvZ. So you can completely skip on the watch-out-for-banes play, if you dont like it.
you can avoid to deal with widow mines by playing roach hydra if thats what your having trouble against. if terran keeps making widow mines against you then you should be winning in the long run. but then you have to deal with siege tanks instead
how is anything of this imbalanced? what are you implying
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@Naruto
Your question has a simple answer: Most things were eternally discussed before already. You should ask yourself why you always get that hostile when I write anything in this thread and start to attack me.
I noted some simple obvious observations of mine that I think are essential or questionable. Of course there are more essential things for the matchup like e.g. the thor change as you pointed out. I think everything that brings the thor into the game is good and therefore didnt mention it nor there is anything do debate about it imo.
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On August 04 2014 06:10 LSN wrote:
@Naruto
Your question has a simple answer: Most things were eternally discussed before already. You should ask yourself why you always get that hostile when I write anything in this thread and start to attack me.
I noted some simple observations of mine that I think are essential or questionable. Of course there are more essential things for the matchup like e.g. the thor change as you pointed out. I think everything that brings the thor into the game is good and therefore didnt mention it nor there is anything do debate about it imo.
The points you adressed and observed are wrong and refuted by what I wrote down. Thats why I am asking you to state your opinion on the points brought up. MorroW seems to agree with the points that are made in reply to your original 'observings' . Now you have a pro player and a caster (former pro) telling you that you are not slightly off, but completely on the wrong track.
How can you still say 'all this has been discussed before'; those are my observations and I think it needs to change. Yes, thank god this game is balanced around pro level and seemingly the pros have a different take on what they feel is hard and/or doable.
I get 'hostile' because you throw gas into an already big fire and whenever someone makes clear and reasonable points about what you just said, you simply quit the conversation and return at another time to do what you do best . Thats why I said "same pattern".
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On August 04 2014 06:05 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 06:03 Big J wrote:On August 04 2014 05:45 MorroW wrote:On August 04 2014 05:36 NarutO wrote:On August 04 2014 05:32 LSN wrote:Lets see how all this is gonna unfold. I just noted some simple observations. Naruto wants to fight, so I gonna pick this up and answer it adequately: I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo. So you wanna say you can judge about my knowledge of the game more than I can judge about the game itself? I have never been a progamer and nor have you when closely looking at it. If that was required, anyhow, every developer needed to be a pro-gamer. Furthermore your knowledge seems to be not that great when you ask me why zerg attacks against terrans become less cost efficient in a meta that shift towards zergs needing generally more units to hold terran attacks. I have been a pro - like it or not. No closely looking at it will help. Same pattern as every time. I write an essay adressing your arguments and counter them. You pick the line you like and try to dismiss me with it. Go ahead and point out the flaws in the arguments I made or stop brining up a discussion you seemingly don't want to take. i read your arguments and they are impenetrable my friend 11 11 rax can kill a zerg on certain maps if zerg doesnt scout properly. early aggression and scouting is part of the game. when i reaper expand i send out a scv scout to see zergs base if hes doing something funny. for example if zerg goes 14pool and makes 6 lings, dodges the first reaper in the middle of the map (with help of the overlord) he will get a guarantee cancel on my command center in the natural base. so by not scouting as terran you can be punished even with a reaper expand, with 14cc you also have to scout to be safe. so why is it so weird that zerg has to scout as well to be absolutely safe in early game LSN? hyun wasnt playing roach antics beacuse he thinks macro game is not viable. he does it beacuse thats what hyun does. his playstyle was been this way forever and watching him play normal zvt on nimbus and catallena was quite sad, it looks subpar to the zergs i meet on the ladder. then you watch him play his own playstyle on like merry go round and he kills bunny with 2-2 roach hydra timing even though bunny saw it coming and had siege tanks, goes to show that hyun is clearly just better at that playstyle also saying a widow mine 25/75 shouldnt be capable of killing 17 lings instantly is hilarious because thats exactly what terran has to deal with - all game long in every matchup against storm and banelings. this is just how the game works with aoe and your forced to keep good attention on your army at all times Not calling imbalance or anything like that, but note that a widow mine does this kind of splash to everything - ground, air, armored, light - and has a main target damage value too. While a baneling only does this kind of damage to light, ground units and has no such high damage capability against main targets, for a compareable price. And I hate to repeat myself, but you are not forced to play with marines in TvZ. So you can completely skip on the watch-out-for-banes play, if you dont like it. you can avoid to deal with widow mines by playing roach hydra if thats what your having trouble against. if terran keeps making widow mines against you then you should be winning in the long run. but then you have to deal with siege tanks instead how is anything of this imbalanced? what are you implying
I'm not implying racial imbalance. What Im saying is that some units are plainly much better than others and that I think there is a point to not wanting a single 75/25 unit killing 17banelings (850/425). For the same value of marines to get killed by banelings, the baneling costs need to be much higher.
Similarily to how you dont want Immortals to counter tanks THAT hard. They can still counter, but in a more reasonable manner.
Of course you can always just play bio or try to not play the things that mines arent good against, I just think there is a strong relationship between having units that are too strong against certain units (not races) and the amount of variety these races have.
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As you desire so I want to in short answer your points:
Yes, ofcourse a mine hit can be devastating. The same applies to a 2 baneling mine which detonates below 25 marines and shreds them to pieces.
Well what about 2 banes? You need 2 of them, then they explode once and are gone and you have to upgrade burrow before. They furthermore need alot of luck that the terran perfectly walks over them and be triggered manually which is not something you can rely on to happen. Scan vs creep provides automatic detection as well when zerg is in defense.
I am pretty sure a player like Sacsri who averages about 350apm and peaks about 500 is capable of taking care of mutas in the fight itself.
Mutas oftenly need to deal damage microing them back in the fight can be as bad as tanking the damage but killing the terran army. Especially when it comes to those fights that zerg cant dodge anymore and has to all-in to defend a hatch or smth. We will see what is possible. Not enough time has passed after the patch to have a settled opinion there I guess.
I am not exactly sure what you mean. I am not having a one-sided view on it.
Well I think its a biased view when you say you want to nerf z speed advantage on creep and the ZvT performance off creep is nothing to worry about. Z is having already now a hard time to defend these attacks. This is something that I support for the next expansion in combination with a bigger set of changes tho.
Yes - if you counter attack like HyuN while being down on units, its not worth it. Absolutely true. But that is decisionmaking.
What you didnt get about my point was that it inevitably makes zerg counter attacks less cost efficient on average. Z has to always be able to fend of terran aggression. As he needs more units to fend this off he has less potential for free lings/banes/mutalisks to counter attack. If he does so and loses them (zerg usually loses all banelings and most lings) or gets too much dmg on mutas he will put himself at risk to not being able to defend the attack of terran anymore and has killed a few scv in best case. The higher risk that the shifted meta for z contains to lose essential defense units (the risk is higher that these units that you take at risk become essential for defense than before) makes these counters less cost efficient. In other words: The zerg had to kill more than before with these kind of attacks (or be certain to kill anything/more than before) to make up the higher risk of this exact action. As this (in the previous brackets) is not the case, we simply gonna see less zerg aggression and focus on defense in the future. This is something you should know.
I don't really mind what casters say, usually reapers don't even snipe a drone. If they do - most of the time its a screwup (and seen as this) by the Zerg)
Yes sure. I agreed he screwed up. Nothing to add. I just mentioned it.
Its not a freewin and the last example that would come to mind is LiquidRet vs M_Dayshi from last WCS Challenger Day. It was unscouted and successful in taking down the hatch, Dayshi still lost the game.
Well I think (as previously said) that this is potentially not needed anymore in a new shifted tvz meta and could be revisited. But it certainly depends on how this going to be handled by players in the future. I mentioned it because I saw snute losing 2 games easily against it in this current event and it is something that imo does not give the game anything (also metawise).
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On August 04 2014 06:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 06:05 MorroW wrote:On August 04 2014 06:03 Big J wrote:On August 04 2014 05:45 MorroW wrote:On August 04 2014 05:36 NarutO wrote:On August 04 2014 05:32 LSN wrote:Lets see how all this is gonna unfold. I just noted some simple observations. Naruto wants to fight, so I gonna pick this up and answer it adequately: I am really the last person to go that way, but once again its simply a matter of you being a person that never has played on pro level nor high level at all that is making assumptions and trying to argue points that can only be made and understood if you actually experienced it. Even as former pro its not always easy to grasp what pros are doing or thinking or predicting movement and you talk like ... you can observe and see the matrix like neo. So you wanna say you can judge about my knowledge of the game more than I can judge about the game itself? I have never been a progamer and nor have you when closely looking at it. If that was required, anyhow, every developer needed to be a pro-gamer. Furthermore your knowledge seems to be not that great when you ask me why zerg attacks against terrans become less cost efficient in a meta that shift towards zergs needing generally more units to hold terran attacks. I have been a pro - like it or not. No closely looking at it will help. Same pattern as every time. I write an essay adressing your arguments and counter them. You pick the line you like and try to dismiss me with it. Go ahead and point out the flaws in the arguments I made or stop brining up a discussion you seemingly don't want to take. i read your arguments and they are impenetrable my friend 11 11 rax can kill a zerg on certain maps if zerg doesnt scout properly. early aggression and scouting is part of the game. when i reaper expand i send out a scv scout to see zergs base if hes doing something funny. for example if zerg goes 14pool and makes 6 lings, dodges the first reaper in the middle of the map (with help of the overlord) he will get a guarantee cancel on my command center in the natural base. so by not scouting as terran you can be punished even with a reaper expand, with 14cc you also have to scout to be safe. so why is it so weird that zerg has to scout as well to be absolutely safe in early game LSN? hyun wasnt playing roach antics beacuse he thinks macro game is not viable. he does it beacuse thats what hyun does. his playstyle was been this way forever and watching him play normal zvt on nimbus and catallena was quite sad, it looks subpar to the zergs i meet on the ladder. then you watch him play his own playstyle on like merry go round and he kills bunny with 2-2 roach hydra timing even though bunny saw it coming and had siege tanks, goes to show that hyun is clearly just better at that playstyle also saying a widow mine 25/75 shouldnt be capable of killing 17 lings instantly is hilarious because thats exactly what terran has to deal with - all game long in every matchup against storm and banelings. this is just how the game works with aoe and your forced to keep good attention on your army at all times Not calling imbalance or anything like that, but note that a widow mine does this kind of splash to everything - ground, air, armored, light - and has a main target damage value too. While a baneling only does this kind of damage to light, ground units and has no such high damage capability against main targets, for a compareable price. And I hate to repeat myself, but you are not forced to play with marines in TvZ. So you can completely skip on the watch-out-for-banes play, if you dont like it. you can avoid to deal with widow mines by playing roach hydra if thats what your having trouble against. if terran keeps making widow mines against you then you should be winning in the long run. but then you have to deal with siege tanks instead how is anything of this imbalanced? what are you implying I'm not implying racial imbalance. What Im saying is that some units are plainly much better than others and that I think there is a point to not wanting a single 75/25 unit killing 17banelings (850/425). For the same value of marines to get killed by banelings, the baneling costs need to be much higher. Similarily to how you dont want Immortals to counter tanks THAT hard. They can still counter, but in a more reasonable manner. Of course you can always just play bio or try to not play the things that mines arent good against, I just think there is a strong relationship between having units that are too strong against certain units (not races) and the amount of variety these races have.
i agree but that is a design-matter and not a balance-matter. the design of this game is a trainwreck from its fundamentals up in my opinion.
back to the widow mine though. the widow mine needs the be strong enough to punish a zerg for not microing very hard the same way terran gets punished by not microing hard. before this patch most zergs were just attacking into my army and the widow mines would do decently, where as now they do amazingly.
zergs will start microing like they did before the patch, send in clumps of ling bane on move command into the terran army and cause friendly splash damage as well as put widow mines off cool-down. use stacked mutalisks and pick off lone widow mines that are abit too unprotected by the bio forces.
now i can actually notice the difference of my zerg opponents micro control where as prepatch they all just seemed to attack carelessly.
you have to keep in mind that the widow mine can be that much stronger than banelings because widow mines build out of factory and banes out of zerglings. widow mines must be borrowed and units have to walk into them where banes are mobile.
micro control is forced by having ridiculously overpowered aoe, thats just how the game is designed since it lacks certain fundamental mechanical aspects to make great micro significant compared to worse.
if widow mines dont punish bio getting stormed or bio clumping against banes in a similar fashion a zerg with worse micro control than the terran will go unnoticed.
but if you dont agree with this design logic and wished that the game would be even less rewarding for great players or you think mechanics and micro should shine in different aspects than dodging aoe then im sorry to tell you, sc2 wont change
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This talk about the viability of the 11-11 rax kind of misses the point IMO.
A viable cheese will always exist in every matchup, because the cheese is what prevents a player from opening with unlimited greed. If no cheese exists, a player will simply perform a greedier opening as there is no risk of dying.
If the 11-11 rax was nerfed, all that would happen is zergs would open greedier until terrans are able to kill them again, and the matchup settles upon a new equilibrium where zerg has an economic edge going into the midgame.
Zerg is about cutting as many corners as possible, and reading your opponent just right so that you always put out the maximum number of drones possible. Of course they will open as greedy as possible, and occasionally flop because of it. The relevant question is whether a "safe" opening for zerg puts them on even ground with the terran, and in the current state of the game I believe it does.
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There are currently 4 problems in the game IMO
1 - Terran has no flow control other than AoE DPS
2 - The Colossus (and Tempest) problem
3 - Zerg doesn't have backdoor (other than the Mutas) - or at least - a good backdoor that's non-repetitive as opposed to a bad but repetitive one (i.e. - Mutas), and
4 - Zerg has that "come-to-me" late-game mechanics as opposed to making Zerg stronger when they go INTO the frey, the Swarmhosts were supposed to do this, but combined with the Viper's power of abduct - the opposite backfired "hard"
So - having those 4 key design problems we end up having watching the same games happen over and over again
These I posted aren't "balance" problems, but rather design problems, but that being said - they should be addressed upon in the future (somehow, anyhow).. And Blizzard design team should - IMO - whatever they choose to do - they should solve these FIRST before doing anything else IMO
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Let's say a few more words about this "flow-control" problem:
1 - The flow-control unit of the Terran army ATM is the Widow-Mine (and mass Raven later on).. The flow-control is the one unit you address/rely upon once things get "too dicy", i.e. - "too hard to cope" with simple core units like the Marine and/or Tank, or at least they should be.. By relying on those to do the "dierty work" and by those being unreliable enough to rely upon to do that - Terran's forced to harass heavy - like very heavy (much heavier than say Protoss would need to do) early on..
True that that might be a part of the beauty of Terran, but in the same time it may be the one thing we're all disgusted from.. WM killing IDK 15 workers, or a Marine drop doing 15 worker kills - is a bad idea to have a race "almost entirely" rely on.. So what Blizz should do is give some flow-control to the Terran - other than the splash damage - things like stuns, stun AoE, slow AoE, or maybe even heal AoE might deal with some issues (such as Vikings vs Mutas, or Vikings vs Protoss fleet for example), Terran should have more "disabling" and other ways to do the "dirty work" instead of just "blow up" things IMO.. The bad idea about one big blob doing all the work is that the battle is decided in a mere second, like true that Terran might need some AoE, but make it supportive AoE, not just "game-ending" AoE.. like hsm for example - it sounds "cool on paper" but it ends games very fast and very bad for a rather seamless gameflow IMO
2 - Ppl were saying damn a-move Protoss for ages now, but that's not entirely true.. They were true about the Colossus though.. Watch Nony's PvP "research" from back in WoL where he tests "what's the best thing to do" in those laser-fest-lightshows.. The conclusion was really for funzies - the best thing to do in PvP with Colossi vs Colossi is to - a-move only ONCE and do that in some "thought-out-far-away-spot" very BEHIND the opponent army.. If you tried to focus-fire - sure you'd end up killing one of the opponent's Colossus very fast, but you'd end up having all your Colossi clumped up thus lose the whole battle for trying to micro..
There might be some "cool-to-watch" (time-out vs time-out in battle situations) such as Colossus vs Vikings vs Stalkers/Storm vs Marauders action, or like Colossi vs Hydras vs Corruptors vs Vipers (in terms of - is T/Z gonna kill Colossi first fast enough to win the ground battle or it's gonna happen that Protoss will defend his Colossi and then win the whole thing) which is by now clearly what Blizzard relied upon to get the viewership, but it's a VERY BAD GAME DESIGN PROBLEM.. Like let's be honest - "War of the Worlds" is "fun to watch", but as ppl learned more and realized more - they got into the problem rather than the "shiny looking armor" of stuff, or the "thermal lance of purification" "purifying bugs" all game long.. Like that's a very "cool concept" to "attract viewership", but it was a concept that didn't last long..
Like - just DON'T do that.. Don't give a unit AoE AND long range AND high DPS and a relatively high attack speed - that whole thing is like W.T.F. You have to "omit" one of the 3..
You rather give a lot of AoE AND low range OR vice-versa, but surely not BOTH (or BOTH but with very slow attack speed overall)
Some might make the statement of Siege-tanks are a bit of an exception, but Siege-tank's designed to do a rather different role primary than flow-control, ST is rather about area control, not about flow-control, ST (role-wise best described difference via BW Zerg) was the Lurker rather than the Defiler, the Colossus is a very strong "Defiler" (again - role-wise), and that's the problem
You're basically giving the whole race a unit that's BAD TO MICRO and does tremendous amounts of damage.. This problem can be avoided by one very simple rule though - don't give a lot of AoE to a long-ranged-repetitive-attack unit.. The Reaver in BW for example was middle-ranged (could be long-ranged semi/arguable), it had a lot of AoE, BUT - it wasn't repetitive enough for it to "backfire", the Reaver couldn't be afforded to wait for it to "repeat" it's arming and fire again, had to be moved away to do that in safety (in Shuttles in this particular case)..
The point is - the rest of the Protoss army is fine (except the Tempest, lol), cause apart from those mentioned two - the actions your opponent does force you to DANCE your units (Zealots are a deliberate exception, those are designed to be the fodder for the rest of your army to have enough time to "dance" around), only that Blizz should rely on better "dancing mechanic" other than the forcefield for Protoss to rely on.. It wouldn't be game-breaking if the forcefield stayed on though, just a lot of "unnecessary" limits to map-design out there, but they key problems in Protoss desing are Colossi and Tempests as far as I'm concerned, the rest of the army has to "dance something" to add up to the battlefield overall
3 - BW used to have those things called Lurker-drops, now we can see TLO "attempt" to do the same, but to no avail, lol.. There was also the potential of Defiler/Lurker - which was even better than just a plain Lurker drop.. Regardless - my point is - Zerg had Backdoor, they had a "point-control" unit that made that "ground for a multitasked attack happen.. Now they don't.. All they have is the repetitive harass of Mutas again and again all game long.. What Blizz should do is give Zerg alternative, and nerf Mutas, "invent" some new "optional" role for the Mutalisks, other than being the only backdoor in Zerg's arsenal.. In other words - make Zerg have better backdoor, but have it require more than just controlling a Muta (or Muta-overseer) flock, that's what's my point regarding this one overall
4 - Swarmhost is mainly a bad unit, but not it's potential.. The way how Viper works makes the Swarmhost work best if used counter of it's primary intended use.. It was true that Zerg needed the "battery-ram" sort of unit though, so it was a right "attempt" of a call from Blizz, but not the right call.. That being said - the SH ended up instead of being the battery-ram unit, it became the opposite of that.. the best way for those to have succeeded IMO would've been if they were cheaper, and they were best against opponent's buildings, like - make locusts lose life instead of lose timer, and when they hit an opponent building heal up, that would've "strenghtened" that battery-ram usage instead of doing the exact opposite all game long (just an in-my-point-of-view example of what SH should've been IMO)
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IMPORTANT NOTE(s):
1 - You may have "noticed" some of these "inspired" by BW, more like - comparisons "inspired" by BW, but it's not the BW I want to happen, it's the "concept mistakes made" I wanna address for them to be "repaired" now.. I was using "some BW" cause it's a very easy sample to compare and conclude "where things went wrong", but yes - I'm AGAINST BW happen again though
2 - MICRO IS AFTERMATH (not a cause).. Don't talk about units in terms of "micro", it's a "way that happens once it's out there and left for good players to feel the unit and have it reworked".. Mutalisks surely weren't designed to be microed, they were designed to cause a backdoor "flaw" for the opponent.. Bet your ass that the only form of micro thought out for the Mutalisk was to "return the injured ones back" rather than the 11-Mutas stacks we used to see in the game all-over.. So yes - don't, like - AT ALL - don't bother about discussing Micro if talking about game-design.. Not that it's not important, BUT - cause it's a REPERCUSSION rather than a CAUSE of a unit's design.. Even if you make a unit without bothering about micro and give it some pros and cons - ppl will figure out how to use it "microed" for the better, as long as not doing the "Colossus mistake" explained above.. (in that particular case the only con of the Colossus should've been it's "clunkiness" and/or it's "bumpiness", but let's be honest - that's a not enough of a con to give it all the types of "flow-control power")
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So yes - those are the 4 main "problems" I'd like to see addressed in the future..
The sooner, the better, I'd like to believe it would happen sooner, but I guess we're gonna have to wait till LotV (I have patience, and still have some optimism in myself regarding those problems, lol), I just hope that the design team doesn't just focus on "making Protoss require more micro" as opposed to also fixing Terran.. I'm really sick and tired of watching Marines win games almost all by themselves, or playing with Marines almost all game long.. I really hope Blizz realizes the first-above design problem, (would like to see some of Zerg stuff reworked too, but ATM that's kinda "optional", like the backdoor one for example - that was an optional, but SHost however isn't optional as far as I'm concerned)..
So far what I've read/heard from them (via some interviews) seems like they'll focus only on the 2nd above problem, whilest the 1st, 3rd and 4th might remain (kinda sad, but there's still time, I believe though) 
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EPT
