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On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base.
Then z needs some other aoe option against terran as i believe this would simply kill zerg. Imagine z before baneling speed trying to defend early timings. GG.
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On August 05 2014 18:14 Socup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 18:03 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 17:48 Socup wrote:
I wish hellbat would be considered armored instead of light, or have it's bio tag removed so it isn't healed. It synergizes with infantry armies better than mech armies, which makes little sense. It's a nightmare to defend in TvT if it's some early cheese that your build order is pretty weak against.
I saw the hellion spam drop coming, so I got marauders, given that it is in the Unit Counters table of the blizzard helpfiles, and yet... light unit for reduced damage, getting constantly healed, able to nuke a mineral line or at the least cause significant structural damage and then just walk away while the turret produced to deal with it lacks the range upgrade and is relatively useless.
This unit has been problematic from day 1, from all appearances, and I'm starting to see why. Exactly what does the terran army have which can counter hellbat but more hellbat? I'm seriously considering moving back to brood war at this stage. At least then you could use goliaths to deal with vultures, which couldn't transform into a medic-healed unit with high health. micro, like all the other races have to against them Micro doesn't cut it when you're both good at micro, especially since it simply means you're taking damage or losses and they just fly away.
Tanks are good against HBs, Thors are good against HBs, Bio is good against HBs with micro. Banshees are good against HBs too. Oh, and Hellions are good against HBs !
BioHellbat doesn't exist in TvT tho. If you played against it, it would probably be in bronze league.
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On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base.
The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together.
It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing.
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On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing.
At least locust speed please 
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On August 04 2014 05:09 LSN wrote:
So lets leave protoss alone this time and focus on TvZ.
Said nobody ever in the balance discussion thread!
I think people are exaggerating a lot of things simply because Hyun didn't play very well.
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On August 06 2014 03:06 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. At least locust speed please
Enduring locusts just needs to go. Swarm Hosts should be a little bit more exposed than they currently need to be. With anywhere near decent creep spread they can hit you from half the map away.
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On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing.
Meh, I like a lot of them.
(nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep.
Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading.
Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away.
The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower).
I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep.
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On August 06 2014 03:06 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. At least locust speed please
Totally agree about locust bonus speed on creep. I feel like there is really hard to actually run away from locust and don't lose units especially when you are on creep. You can outrun them only if you run straight away from SH and don't change the direction at all. Of course you simply cannot run that long in one line because, you know, topography of maps 
But that's my biased anti-SH point of view ;P
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On August 06 2014 03:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. Meh, I like a lot of them. (nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep. Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading. Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away. The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower). I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep.
Yeah, I like the creep mechanic a lot : vision, speed...
The only thing that bother me is that creep take way too much time to resorbe itself, it should decay as fast as its spread.
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On August 06 2014 03:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. Meh, I like a lot of them. (nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep. Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading. Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away. The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower). I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep.
Hellions should have an upgrade to make them faster than Zerglings off creep, but slower than Zerglings on creep. It would provide yet another satisfying speed trade-off, similar to Reapers and slow Zerglings on creep. I don't think the speed and map presence of Mutalisks is the main problem, it's that large numbers of them overwhelm their own counters, even when they attack directly into them. Maybe an HP decrease or a slight nerf to how their healing works (maybe put a delay on the initiation of the fast healing, similar to Protoss shields) would be the right way to lower their direct combat potential.
On August 06 2014 00:20 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. Then z needs some other aoe option against terran as i believe this would simply kill zerg. Imagine z before baneling speed trying to defend early timings. GG.
Even off creep, mass banelings is a problem, provided the Zerg player has a superior economy. A much better change would be to Siege Tank inner splash radius to better 1-shot Banelings, or to change Widow Mine splash radius from 40 flat to 45/30/15, in a range of 2.25/2/1.75, which would absolutely slaughter banelings, but not hit Zerglings much harder on the whole, and would help increase the importance of the Terran to avoid friendly splash.
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On August 06 2014 03:30 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:25 Big J wrote:On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. Meh, I like a lot of them. (nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep. Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading. Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away. The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower). I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep. Yeah, I like the creep mechanic a lot : vision, speed... The only thing that bother me is that creep take way too much time to resorbe itself, it should decay as fast as its spread.
I think it does decay as fast as it spreads. Maybe it should decay twice as fast though. Or at least 1.5 times as fast.
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On August 06 2014 03:33 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:30 Faust852 wrote:On August 06 2014 03:25 Big J wrote:On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. Meh, I like a lot of them. (nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep. Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading. Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away. The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower). I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep. Yeah, I like the creep mechanic a lot : vision, speed... The only thing that bother me is that creep take way too much time to resorbe itself, it should decay as fast as its spread. I think it does decay as fast as it spreads. Maybe it should decay twice as fast though. Or at least 1.5 times as fast.
I don't know actually, a tumor generate all its creep in 86s. I know the overlord creep take 60s to dissipate and the radius is much shorter.
But I don't know exactly, I just had the freeling that creep resorbes more slowly. But then again, there is rarely only 1 creep tumor so it's much faster in a real situation.
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On August 06 2014 03:33 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:30 Faust852 wrote:On August 06 2014 03:25 Big J wrote:On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. Meh, I like a lot of them. (nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep. Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading. Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away. The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower). I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep. Yeah, I like the creep mechanic a lot : vision, speed... The only thing that bother me is that creep take way too much time to resorbe itself, it should decay as fast as its spread. I think it does decay as fast as it spreads. Maybe it should decay twice as fast though. Or at least 1.5 times as fast.
Not sure about base values, but having 2 tumors in the same area will cause the creep to spread significantly faster, while it decays at a constant rate no matter what. I also feel like it takes significantly longer for the creep from an overlord to dissapate than it does for the overlord to spread it.
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And once again this thread is invaded by noob terran who wants to change the all game because they are stuck in gold league.
"Hey warpgate is to strong, just remove it"
"Creep give zerg maphack, this is clearly imba, nerf please"
"Remove baneling speed on creep please"
"Give siege tanks +2 range !"
Etc...
If only one of these change would be applied, the game would be totally broken.
My point is : the game balance is fine now, adjustement can be done but not the big nerfs some of you are talking about. Changing in creep spread or warpgate would be massive and nothing justify this now : just look on how small buff like the thor one seems to impact pro level.
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On August 06 2014 00:20 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. Then z needs some other aoe option against terran as i believe this would simply kill zerg. Imagine z before baneling speed trying to defend early timings. GG.
This. Creep spread is an extremely undervalued mechanic for gameplay as it basically means that you can have two fast-paced unit compositions battling it out against each other wihich makes the game very actionpaced, while still having a strong defenders advantage.
If you tried to balance TvZ without creep spread, terran would just automatically win if it had the best army, or zerg would be forced to get some very strong defederns-advantage unit. BW zerg survived without creep spread due to being forced to get Defilers/Lurkers vs bio-play. In Sc2, Muta/bling doesn't have a noticeable defenders advantage in itself and would therefore create extremely lame gameplay if it didn't benefit signifciantly from creep.
In my opinion, creep spread is probably the best designed defenders-advantage mechanic I have ever seen in an RTS game as it basically creates an incentive for both players to go out on the map and battle over the creep. Further, it's also a skill-based mechanic.
One thing that could be changed, however, is to only make creep-spread benefit the fact-paced core units such as Speedlings, Banelings, Roaches and Hydralisks. Units that already have a defenders advantage such as Swarm Hosts and Infestors doesn't need it. Further, an harass-based style through burrow moment doesn't need it either.
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Wow people still talking about zerg nerfs.. you really have no clue about the game.
Terran is probably favored now in TvZ and PvZ has been 'balanced' for quite some time now.
I actually think this WCS season is gonna be a really sad season for zerg, on top of that zerg has won the least tournaments in 2014. and in HoTS alltogether.
Stop whining terran you've already had 489456465 buffs and still complain lol
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On August 06 2014 17:49 Awin wrote:
And once again this thread is invaded by noob terran who wants to change the all game because they are stuck in gold league.
"Hey warpgate is to strong, just remove it"
"Creep give zerg maphack, this is clearly imba, nerf please"
"Remove baneling speed on creep please"
"Give siege tanks +2 range !"
Etc...
If only one of these change would be applied, the game would be totally broken.
My point is : the game balance is fine now, adjustement can be done but not the big nerfs some of you are talking about. Changing in creep spread or warpgate would be massive and nothing justify this now : just look on how small buff like the thor one seems to impact pro level.
I'm probably better than you, by a fair margin. And all you did with ur 17 posts was complaining about terran, lol please.
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On August 06 2014 03:40 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:33 Pontius Pirate wrote:On August 06 2014 03:30 Faust852 wrote:On August 06 2014 03:25 Big J wrote:On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. Meh, I like a lot of them. (nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep. Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading. Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away. The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower). I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep. Yeah, I like the creep mechanic a lot : vision, speed... The only thing that bother me is that creep take way too much time to resorbe itself, it should decay as fast as its spread. I think it does decay as fast as it spreads. Maybe it should decay twice as fast though. Or at least 1.5 times as fast. I don't know actually, a tumor generate all its creep in 86s. I know the overlord creep take 60s to dissipate and the radius is much shorter. But I don't know exactly, I just had the freeling that creep resorbes more slowly. But then again, there is rarely only 1 creep tumor so it's much faster in a real situation.
I'm waiting for Pros to start using Creep tumors in a wide spread. Creep fills in extremely fast betwen two tumors or hatches which have meeting creep borders. Like nearly instant compared to the slow spread of reaching tumors alone in one direction.
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On August 06 2014 18:47 Socup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:40 Faust852 wrote:On August 06 2014 03:33 Pontius Pirate wrote:On August 06 2014 03:30 Faust852 wrote:On August 06 2014 03:25 Big J wrote:On August 06 2014 02:19 Foxxan wrote:On August 05 2014 18:54 Grumbels wrote:
Banelings should lose the creep speed bonus in LotV. The difference between performance on and off creep is too much in comparison with other units and it makes games too dependent on never giving zerg time to get creep around their third or fourth base. The creep bonus to movementspeed should be gone all together. It will be to hard to make good unit relationships in lotv with this creep thing. Meh, I like a lot of them. (nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep. Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading. Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away. The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower). I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep. Yeah, I like the creep mechanic a lot : vision, speed... The only thing that bother me is that creep take way too much time to resorbe itself, it should decay as fast as its spread. I think it does decay as fast as it spreads. Maybe it should decay twice as fast though. Or at least 1.5 times as fast. I don't know actually, a tumor generate all its creep in 86s. I know the overlord creep take 60s to dissipate and the radius is much shorter. But I don't know exactly, I just had the freeling that creep resorbes more slowly. But then again, there is rarely only 1 creep tumor so it's much faster in a real situation. I'm waiting for Pros to start using Creep tumors in a wide spread. Creep fills in extremely fast betwen two tumors or hatches which have meeting creep borders. Like nearly instant compared to the slow spread of reaching tumors alone in one direction.
Players like Snute or Scarlett cover the whole map in less than 14min even whilme being harassed haha, that's a bit insane. That's also why Snute has had quite a big succes with his SH style against bio. But then again, it requires almost perfect mechanics so it won't be a problem till high level pro imho.
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On August 06 2014 18:33 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Wow people still talking about zerg nerfs.. you really have no clue about the game.
Terran is probably favored now in TvZ and PvZ has been 'balanced' for quite some time now.
I actually think this WCS season is gonna be a really sad season for zerg, on top of that zerg has won the least tournaments in 2014. and in HoTS alltogether.
Stop whining terran you've already had 489456465 buffs and still complain lol
Some major tournaments were quite stacked (even more than some premier event) and Zerg did well there.
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EPT
