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Pharaphobia
Czech Republic58 Posts
On August 06 2014 18:52 Faust852 wrote: Some major tournaments were quite stacked (even more than some premier event) and Zerg did well there. Sadly its true and Terrans will cry until the game will be that retarded when terran could amove marines from first to rax with auto attack command pre-enabled to win... also instant 3/3 upgrades I think and they terran players might shut up in TvZ | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:17 Pharaphobia wrote: Sadly its true and Terrans will cry until the game will be that retarded when terran could amove marines from first to rax with auto attack command pre-enabled to win... also instant 3/3 upgrades I think and they terran players might shut up in TvZ More tears please. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On August 06 2014 17:49 Awin wrote: And once again this thread is invaded by noob terran who wants to change the all game because they are stuck in gold league. "Hey warpgate is to strong, just remove it" "Creep give zerg maphack, this is clearly imba, nerf please" "Remove baneling speed on creep please" "Give siege tanks +2 range !" Etc... If only one of these change would be applied, the game would be totally broken. My point is : the game balance is fine now, adjustement can be done but not the big nerfs some of you are talking about. Changing in creep spread or warpgate would be massive and nothing justify this now : just look on how small buff like the thor one seems to impact pro level. People like you are why it's bothersome to be without a desktop pc during the holidays. I could write a much lengthier post explaining my reasoning for the baneling speed suggestion, and it would probably deter you from even commenting on it because of your obvious lack of reading comprehension, but instead I have to make due with two sentences which leaves too much up to chance because it's dependent on the interpretation of random people on the internet. Maybe I shouldn't bother. *sigh* | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:34 Socup wrote: Im also waiting for pros to start using banshees in TvP more during direct attack. Cry all you want about feedback or storm or stalkers, but storm is deadlier to your ground forces than losing a single banshee to a feedback, banshees have more hp than vikings so storm is less effective, and banshees are light which makes stalkers less effective. Banshees being a feedback sink protects your ground army from storms, and that's if people don't get and spam cloak/decloak smartly. No upgrades, less range, require control. Wtf mate. Banshee sucks in TvP, especially if you play bio at the same time. | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On August 06 2014 18:52 Faust852 wrote: Some major tournaments were quite stacked (even more than some premier event) and Zerg did well there. Not saying Zerg doesn't win enough, But terrans keep whining no matter how many buffs they get. while they are doing at least as well as Zerg does, if not better. | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:36 Faust852 wrote: No upgrades, less range, require control. Wtf mate. Banshee sucks in TvP, especially if you play bio at the same time. You haven't been watching the Avilo's stream lately  Anyway, they share upgrades with viking and the rest of mech, so if you're going 0-0 using vikings in mid to late game to try to snipe down colossus, you might as well gg and leave right then and there, seeing as how vikings have TWO attacks which means armor ups over 0-0 count doubly against them. You can go armor ups on vikings to help them live much longer and basically power through the stalker balls, it seems to work just as well as making them glass cannons with only attack ups to snipe Colossus down quickly. But yeah, going with no upgrades to mech at all and expecting to use vikings is bad. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:46 Socup wrote: You haven't been watching the Avilo's stream lately Thx for proving my point that you have no clue of what sc2 really is. Who give a fuck about avilo ffs. | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:47 Faust852 wrote: Thx for proving my point that you have no clue of what sc2 really is. Who give a fuck about avilo ffs. I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune a year from now. Why don't you go watch VODs of 2011 GM play, and read the comments about people who believed they knew how to play back then. GMs with 20 minute 2 base and such. People also laughed when I told them to try to get Ultras or brood lords sooner at around 15-17 minutes, and look where we are now. People are doing that as a matter of course. Remember back when everyone said that "Zerg late game only comes out after 25+ minutes"? You're one of those kinds of people. You can armchair coach when you actually play at a high level. Like it or not, Avilo has been in more tournaments than you, and beats other pro gamers on ladder regularly. It's not that I particularly like his whining attitude, but results are what counts in sc2. Show me yours. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:52 Socup wrote: I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune a year from now. Why don't you go watch VODs of 2011 GM play, and read the comments about people who believed they knew how to play back then. GMs with 20 minute 2 base and such. People also laughed when I told them to try to get Ultras or brood lords sooner at around 15-17 minutes, and look where we are now. People are doing that as a matter of course. Remember back when everyone said that "Zerg late game only comes out after 25+ minutes"? You're one of those kinds of people. You can armchair coach when you actually play at a high level. Like it or not, Avilo has been in more tournaments than you, and beats other pro gamers on ladder regularly. It's not that I particularly like his whining attitude, but results are what counts in sc2. Show me yours. Complains about armchair coaching.  | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
Results reinforce credibility. That's simple enough. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 06 2014 20:06 Socup wrote: Results reinforce credibility. That's simple enough. Can you give a link to your results that justifies your armchair coaching. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:52 Socup wrote: I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune a year from now. Why don't you go watch VODs of 2011 GM play, and read the comments about people who believed they knew how to play back then. GMs with 20 minute 2 base and such. People also laughed when I told them to try to get Ultras or brood lords sooner at around 15-17 minutes, and look where we are now. People are doing that as a matter of course. Remember back when everyone said that "Zerg late game only comes out after 25+ minutes"? You're one of those kinds of people. You can armchair coach when you actually play at a high level. Like it or not, Avilo has been in more tournaments than you, and beats other pro gamers on ladder regularly. It's not that I particularly like his whining attitude, but results are what counts in sc2. Show me yours. What results ? He won 50$ once a couple of years ago. Dem results. | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On August 06 2014 20:10 Big J wrote: Can you give a link to your results that justifies your armchair coaching. I think you have skimmed too quickly the earlier posts. Read more carefully. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 06 2014 20:15 Socup wrote: I think you have skimmed too quickly the earlier posts. Read more carefully. Na, I haven't skimmed on the earlier posts. You said it's the next big thing because you saw avilo do it. But nowhere have I seen avilo come in and saying this is the next big thing. So currently it is just you claiming that. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 06 2014 03:25 Big J wrote: Meh, I like a lot of them. (nonspeed) Zergling vs Reaper is a very cool discrepancy on/off creep. Queen is obviously a cool limitation to make them strong as defenders and for offensive usages only worthwhile with nydus/drop or sick creep spreading. Speedroach vs Stalker is cool. On Creep you can close in, offcreep the stalkers can get away. The general baneling vs marine off/on creep idea is great. Maybe flaten it out a tiny bit (less bonus on creep, maybe make them equally fast as stimmed marines of creep instead of a tiny bit slower). I think the real problematic speed relations for the game are speedzergling and mutalisk which are just too strong mapcontrol tools imo. I guess the hellion needs a mentioning here too, not because I think it is too good, but because if you nerf speedling speed, hellions might be too strong offcreep. I see where you are coming from. Agree on the queen and the slowling vs reaper. But not on the rest. In general i believe the fights on creep are just boring and onesided unless there are mass forcefields +escape tools involved(medivacs etc) Wish i could shit further on the blink from the stalker but in this case, this is what makes the roach able to fight the roach on creep, yes? Anyway, keeping the creep, sure. Queen could have the faster speed on and slower off. But for the rest, nah. I rather do something funnier with it in that case. Imagine here now for a sec, that units gets tweaked in Lotv. If blizzard really wanna encourage more micro then i see the speed on creep to really mess it up. Yes. On creep: Roach can move while burrowed without the upgrade? Perhaps its better on creep slightly? To use it offensively, just upgrade it or use creep in battle. Or both. Zergling: Yeah so i actually want the zergling redesigned for Lotv. Slower movementspeed, maybe more health and i would like to see some cool ability on it... Use it and the zergling moves faster for 2seconds. Perhaps it gets a small lifesteal while using it Not a fan of cooldowns in general and so, if it could work the zerglings need to hit two melee hits for the ability to be able to be used. Could maybe be cool? Baneling: If this unit can charge forward in a fast movementspeed(but lower the base movemetnspeed) but cant turn right or left while doing it. Maybe it has the same speed as stim marines while doing it. Turn this unit into a micro unit... Maybe the suggestions are shit. Imo, sc2 has to many bad unit relationships overall. Hope for a tweak/redesign for lotv. And ye, remove the PF please. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 06 2014 20:32 Foxxan wrote: I see where you are coming from. Agree on the queen and the slowling vs reaper. But not on the rest. In general i believe the fights on creep are just boring and onesided unless there are mass forcefields +escape tools involved(medivacs etc) Wish i could shit further on the blink from the stalker but in this case, this is what makes the roach able to fight the roach on creep, yes? Anyway, keeping the creep, sure. Queen could have the faster speed on and slower off. But for the rest, nah. I rather do something funnier with it in that case. Imagine here now for a sec, that units gets tweaked in Lotv. If blizzard really wanna encourage more micro then i see the speed on creep to really mess it up. Yes. On creep: Roach can move while burrowed without the upgrade? Perhaps its better on creep slightly? To use it offensively, just upgrade it or use creep in battle. Or both. Zergling: Yeah so i actually want the zergling redesigned for Lotv. Slower movementspeed, maybe more health and i would like to see some cool ability on it... Use it and the zergling moves faster for 2seconds. Perhaps it gets a small lifesteal while using it Not a fan of cooldowns in general and so, if it could work the zerglings need to hit two melee hits for the ability to be able to be used. Could maybe be cool? Baneling: If this unit can charge forward in a fast movementspeed(but lower the base movemetnspeed) but cant turn right or left while doing it. Maybe it has the same speed as stim marines while doing it. Turn this unit into a micro unit... Maybe the suggestions are shit. Imo, sc2 has to many bad unit relationships overall. Hope for a tweak/redesign for lotv. And ye, remove the PF please. I totally agree with tweaking the interactions more. That's the core potential that SC2 still has in my opinion. But I believe creep is a thing that creates such interactions if you go for the tweaking. I do absolutly also see where you are coming from, but I think that this is less a general problem of speed/no speed boni, but that the values just aren't designed carefully. E.g. I think roaches on creep are too fast in general. Speedlings are way too fast. Banelings are too fast. Ultras are too fast. But the general idea that an ultralisk can outrun MMM on creep while it can't offcreep is a good one. Similarily with the roach and the baneling. It's a nice defenders advantage and slows down "in your face pushes" of the opponent. I think optimally the values should be in a way that gives the Zerg a slight advantage when engaging on creep, but in case the opponent realizes that an assault on his position is incoming, he should be able to run far enough to get off of creep before taking bigger losses. This is not the case currently. If you are on creep, the moment the swarm comes into vision, you cannot retreat off creep anymore, because the speedbonus is just that high. Also what has been said about creep withdrawing painfully slowely is true in my opinion. The decision to push, but not go for the heart immidiatly against the Zerg is too weak in comparison because of that. And after a push where you kill all the tumors the Zerg can often just send a queen so far forward, that he only loses very little creep through it. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Opening Banshees (Cloak or not) is a coinflip in TvP because of Oracles. The earliest Banshee can come out around 6:00 - 6:30, compared to an Oracle at 5:05 if proxied close by. Not only will you have trouble having enough Marines to defend the Oracle but it can just fly away and detect your Banshee, nullifying Cloak. The Stargate can then just Chrono out a Phoenix and the Banshee is dead. In a main army the Banshee lacks producability. For each Banshee cycle you need a whole Starport + Tech Lab and each Banshee takes 60 seconds to build. This means that at the very best you could have *maybe* 3-4 Banshees by the 10 minute mark. You'd also have a much smaller Bio army to accompany them and no Medivacs. They might do more DPS than a Viking but a Viking is much easier to mass: 1. They can be Reactored, producing two at a time. 2. They have only 42 seconds of production time compared to 60 for a Banshee. 3. They have more range, equal to that of a Colossus with Thermal Lance, meaning they are less vulnerable to Stalker fire. 4. They cannot be hit by Feedback. Furthermore, going for a Reactor Starport to build Vikings does not impede your ability to produce Medivacs. You can still produce two Medivacs at the next cycle, which you cannot with a Tech Lab. Banshees only have 15 more HP than a Viking but have 3 less range so their added health is of minimal use because Stalkers have a much easier time hitting them, even if it is for less damage (10 vs 14 against a Viking). Banshees being a Feedback magnet is hardly useful. Not only will your army have much less Medivacs to support them, but Banshees that do not use their Cloak constantly (which they would not as a main army component) will start stocking enough energy for the Feedback to one shot them. Or, Protoss can choose to produce a few more Observers and just bring the Banshees down with Stalkers, even if they Cloak. Since you have no Vikings and Banshees do not shoot air, you have no way to shoot the Observers down unless they are parked over your Marines. Whatever ground force you then have left will have no Medivac support and gets cleaned up easily. Yeah, a fleet of 8 Banshees that catches a Protoss offguard can do a lot of damage. The downside is that you are then relying on your Protoss opponent being bad. Phoenixes, Oracles, High Templar and Stalkers can deal just fine with Banshees. Only pure Stalker against equal Banshee numbers can have issues with them. Now, I do want to see Banshees in TvP, they are a fun unit but as it is, they are no real threat to a good Protoss player and building Banshees severly hampers any Viking/Medivac production, which are of critical use to any Bio army. In Mech it's a little different because Thors could focus down the Observers and fire on Phoenixes, providing some cover for the Banshees. Banshees are also your most mobile unit in a Mech composition outside of Hellions so they have more use there. All that said, the Banshee is hardly a unit that could *ever* come close to replacing the Viking in TvP. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
E.g. I think roaches on creep are too fast in general. Speedlings are way too fast. Banelings are too fast. Ultras are too fast. I disagree here.I think the issue with Roaches are that they are too strong for the cost cost + too supply ineffective. Right now they serve as a midgame map control unit, which creates lame gameplay as enemy just turtles against it. But maintaining the creeprelated defenders advantage for Roaches is extremely important. Otherwise its gonna be a unit your just gonna make a lot of and then kill your opponent and/or zerg is gonna be even more vulnerable to timing attacks. By reducing cost-efficiency I believe enemy can go out on the map more easily in the midgame, and with creep-spread defenders advantage maintained, the zerg should still be able to survive without "strong" mapcontrol. Ultras I think should be much faster both off-creep and oncreep, but less splash/armor. The issue with them right now vs terran is that they are way too strong vs bio-play in a straight up engagement, but he can and is forced to infinitely kite which isn't a good interaction. I think much faster Ultras that cannot be kited effectively, but which instead are weaker in a straight up battle will be good for the game. | ||
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