|
On August 14 2011 08:56 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 08:27 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:
From a business point of view I 100% understand what you're trying to say. Online tournaments, while they get decent viewership and good prizepools for the players are a horrible proof to get sponsors to keep paying you. That's why MLG and other major offline events have been doing better, because the number of people has been dramatically increasing and so has online viewership.
Now, catch the flip side: you're asking for Masters/GM level players who are willing to participate in a monthly in-house tournament, a weekly meeting as well as attending clan wars even if the players won't be participating because your A-Team is doing all the work. Sure. But then you're saying that if those players don't make the effort to attend offline events, they can be dropped from the academy. If they perform not too great (and then again, that's purely subjective right?) in the monthly tournaments, they can get sacked as well. The level of commitment you're asking from them versus your ability to pull the plug whenever you feel like it is rather ridiculous.
You have to realize that Masters/GM level players generally don't have a lot of money. At least not the kind of money to attend let's say at least 3 events. At best, you'll be lucky to find some guys who are able to go to one MLG or NASL or whatever because it's close to their parents' house.
I honestly think you should reconsider your "online tournaments don't matter" policy. While they aren't as amazing for your sponsors, they'll at least show you the level of dedication of your academicians. While offline LAN events are certainly different (different environment, having to play away from home, dealing with jetlag if applies, etc.), you'll at least get some online appreciation. And who knows, with what the players win playing online, they might make enough to join offline events. Right? I don't think you do 100% understand, and let me explain why. Please explain for me why vVv needs an Academy team? Besides Complexity, no other major gaming organization in NA has one. So what benefit does vVv gain from having an Academy team? Keep in mind that *potential talent* does not impress sponsors, actual results do. On the other hand, players willing to join the Academy gain a lot of benefits. If they are potential talent they can develop that talent and gain recognition from an organization that sponsors players who perform well. Players have an entire community to share the expenses of traveling and hotels etc. Players get mentoring and experience learning how to work with sponsors and connections to sponsors who would never look at them twice without the connection to vVv. Sure it's potentially competitive and you will have to pay out of pocket to attend MLGs, but the community will share expenses and it doesn't come anywhere near thousands of dollars as some people in this thread have been suggesting. I think it's very generous of vVv to offer a training ground for people seriously interested in improving their talent. I hope that the vocal minority in this thread who feel that organizations should: 1. Spend thousands of dollars for unknown players to provide no results, 2. Organizations (and players) should be satisfied with Academy teams that never go anywhere or accomplish anything Is just a vocal minority that doesn't represent the majority of the SC2 community.
They have an academy team as a way to foster talent and eventually add to their own team. It's like the NBA d-league or minor league baseball teams.
|
On August 14 2011 08:23 SugarBear wrote:
I see a lot of people complaining about ridiculous non-issues, so I'm going to try to address a few points:
1. Players not getting compensated but expected to attend LANs out of pocket.
If you feel you are already skilled enough to be a sponsored player and should have your expenses mitigated for traveling to LANs, no one is stopping you from applying to be on the sponsored team.
2. Complexity's Academy as gold standard / vVv not doing well at MLG
Complexity did HORRIBLY at Anaheim. I haven't heard of any of their academy team doing well. With that as the basis, why does everyone in this thread consider Complexity's academy as the gold standard for Academy teams? It seems to me that Complexity wasted a lot of money on computers/travel stipends for players who didn't bring any recognition to their team. If anything, I would expect Complexity to discontinue their academy because it's such a bad deal for the organization.
3. What is the benefit for joining the Academy team?
Well obviously if you are already skilled enough to be a sponsored player you wouldn't join the Academy. If you are a skilled player who feels that you can perform better with some structured training and community support then you should join. Obviously you could do this without joining the vVv Academy team, but it will be much more difficult. For example many people find losing weight on their own to be difficult because no one is there to hold them accountable when they make poor choices. The Academy is that entity willing to hold you accountable to stay on a practice schedule and give you the experience needed to succeed at a high level.
Your point #1 is what everyone is complaining about. If someone is already tearing up GM league and online tournaments, they will get picked up by a team and will get sponsored and get their travel expenses paid for. Hence there would be zero reason to join this academy.
This academy is basically for high-mid master level players who want to be able to go pro to be able to get the practice partners/practice schedule to be able to do that, yet they are somehow expected to pay thousands of dollars to be able to stay in said academy or they get kicked, even if they are improving.
Not only that, there is about a zero percent chance that they would even make it out of the open bracket of any LANs they went too anyway because of all the koreans that are coming to the US nowadays. It seems ridiculous to spend $1000 to go to MLG only to draw MKP in the first round.
Edit: On August 14 2011 08:59 ketomai wrote:They have an academy team as a way to foster talent and eventually add to their own team. It's like the NBA d-league or minor league baseball teams.
Except in the D-league and minor leagues players still have a salary. Its not a lot but at least it's something. Terrible analogy.
|
I don't know why people are complaining so much about the vVv Academy.
Progaming is, in my opinion, a VERY difficult field to have as your career. It's kind of like the music industry: only a select few make it and it takes a ton of hard work and traveling and such.
To me, what vVv is doing is providing a means for a player to take the first steps to becoming a progamer. If you're seriously thinking about pursing this as a career and to get money from it, you should already be planning on attending most of the tournaments that they're suggesting you go to, and if you were to go on your own then you'd be paying the expenses yourself anyways.
I read it as a fantastic opportunity for a player who's trying to break through to get some good training, and to know that at least someone is watching them as they perform at top-tier events.
|
Sugarbear. I can assure you we will not be discontinuing our Academy. We may never find the next up and coming talent. That is not why we do this. We do this to give back to the community. Give the community something to watch and most importantly give unnoticed players a chance to attend a major event.
At the end of the day we had three Academy players participate in Anaheim and though none of them made it incredibly deep we are proud of the effort they put forward and believe it or not our sponsors LOVE our academy and love the concept and I assure you it is not because they expect these up and comers to go out and win.
I will not speak to the specifics of the vVv Academy but if these two Academies are what I have to compare against each other then I would absolutely call the compLexity Academy the gold standard.
|
On August 14 2011 07:39 Moa wrote:
That you are willing to converse so much with the community about the academy is commendable. I still would like to see what the mechanic for actually joining the real roster is. That is a big deal and it hasn't been addressed.
Bad habit of mine. I hate to not answer peoples questions. I am kind of out numbered here though! lol. The short answer to your question is when you compete at LANs at or above their level. Obviously its hard to answer the question so simply, but hopefully that clears up the matter of it being an option. Our roster is not full.
|
Are you guys even sponsoring your players with gear? It sounds a bit fishy to me, compared to the complexity academy, which was great while I was in it. Seems like "show up and do good with our tag and we might keep you".
|
This is like NASL.
Cool idea bogged down in terrible rules and restrictions that make sense to no one but the people that made them. I <3 vVv but this is pretty silly.
|
On August 14 2011 07:10 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
the fact of the matter is if you can afford to go to LANs where you can show off your skill and place decently you will get noticed by a big organization. you do not need to be apart of this academy in order to get sponsored/noticed like you are trying to lead people to believe. And if someone can afford to go to major LANS and they are currently with a team that gives them nothing I wouldnt represent them. I wouldnt want potential sponsors that look at me to think "hes taken". I would want to get all the offers I could and being apart of vVv would deter sponsors that are willing to pay travel expenses away.
This is simply ignorance. Do NFL players not join a team because they don't want people to think "hes taken"? This would take far too much time to explain the complexities of inter organizational arrangements and discussions.
|
ok, let's think about this with logic,
1) vVv wants a good team a group of smart players, smart enough to get into GrandMasters, and have a chance in taking a game off the big names out there.
2) "vVv-gaming is a very large organization." meaning they are well financed.
3) people who are smart enough to get in to grand masters are smart enough to realize vVv is "a very large organization" and that would have no problem paying for their basic traveling expenses.
Therefore, 4) it makes no common senses for vVv to expect someone smart enough to get good at starcraft but not smart enough to realize their expenses can easily be paid by a sponsor that they represents.
5) vVv is good in nature, and will not take advantage of people in order to promote their logo.
6) base on premise 1,2,3,4,5, vVv will pay for the expenses of their recruits who puts in hard works and train together in order to get better together, because vVv is good in nature, and will not attempt to insult their recruits' intelligence by taking advantage of smart people who are smart enough to get into Grand master in order to promote their logo for free.
|
The difference in atttude between vVv and coL is this:
vVv: We won't be paying anything unless you proven you can get good results at major LANs.
coL: We are providing resources in the hope that some of you will become good enough to get results at LANs.
I think they are both reasonable positions, it's just that 'Academy' implies you are investing in future talent. That involves taking a risk and investing some time and money first, which vVv is not doing at all.
|
On August 14 2011 09:16 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:10 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
the fact of the matter is if you can afford to go to LANs where you can show off your skill and place decently you will get noticed by a big organization. you do not need to be apart of this academy in order to get sponsored/noticed like you are trying to lead people to believe. And if someone can afford to go to major LANS and they are currently with a team that gives them nothing I wouldnt represent them. I wouldnt want potential sponsors that look at me to think "hes taken". I would want to get all the offers I could and being apart of vVv would deter sponsors that are willing to pay travel expenses away. This is simply ignorance. Do NFL players not join a team because they don't want people to think "hes taken"? This would take far too much time to explain the complexities of inter organizational arrangements and discussions.
Yea I'm pretty sure and Puma/EG that MANY talent scouts will not be contacting players with a team.
|
On August 14 2011 07:12 Nomad123 wrote:
the whole "need to go to major LAN or you're out" thing is the problem, not the $$ needed to get academy members there.
i think vVv is in the wrong here though, it's like telling these guys to shell out money first by going to these LAN events, and if companies want to sponsor these guys cause they did well, they'll sponsor them through vVv and "keep" them in vVv academy, all the while vVv investing nothing on the players (except for maybe practice sessions, which could be done by dedicated group of players anyway).
TLDR: i think vVv is "recruiting" players to get $$ with no real "investment" on their part.
Please don't put something in quotes that isn't a quote. You need to go to a LAN to be evaluated for sponsorship. If you do not attend LANs and we have applicants that are willing to attend lans then a decision MAY be made to drop you. Lets say you maintain your position in the Academy for 90days, feel your ready to attend a LAN and try to become sponsored... Okay, you get 1-2hundred dollars in equipment. How full of yourself are you to think that if you HAVEN'T attended any lans that you are worth that investment? You will get what you earn.
|
On August 14 2011 09:11 coljbass wrote:
Sugarbear. I can assure you we will not be discontinuing our Academy. We may never find the next up and coming talent. That is not why we do this. We do this to give back to the community. Give the community something to watch and most importantly give unnoticed players a chance to attend a major event.
At the end of the day we had three Academy players participate in Anaheim and though none of them made it incredibly deep we are proud of the effort they put forward and believe it or not our sponsors LOVE our academy and love the concept and I assure you it is not because they expect these up and comers to go out and win.
I will not speak to the specifics of the vVv Academy but if these two Academies are what I have to compare against each other then I would absolutely call the compLexity Academy the gold standard.
If that is the case then I wish Complexity and your Academy the best, and hope that model is sustainable for a long time to come!
|
On August 14 2011 07:12 KeyHunt wrote:
I definitely think you guys are looking on this the wrong way. What vVv is offering is simply a chance for players who are at a high level of skill, but have not broken into the top tier yet or haven't been noticed..they are offering them a home. They're saying look, you should be doing all these things like practicing, tournaments, streaming, etc already to promote yourself so why not do it with vVv where you have the chance to make a little money, get some free gear and even have a chance to become a sponsored player once they believe you're ready.
This opportunity is not for the people who will NEVER attend an event on their own. Very few people got sponsored before they attended a single event. Sometimes, if you believe in something you have to just go for it and put yourself out there a bit. If you are just having fun, and do not wish to become a better player, or practice, or play in matches..the opportunity is not for you. However, if you want to do all those things I would think this opportunity would be perfect for you. You get better practice, more established team, team experience that you might not get on your own, information from a respectable organization, maybe some gear, all that for just a little bit of your time and effort.
Even if you don't want to be apart of it, show a little respect for the people that do please.
This. Thank you KeyHunt.
|
On August 14 2011 09:20 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:12 Nomad123 wrote:
the whole "need to go to major LAN or you're out" thing is the problem, not the $$ needed to get academy members there.
i think vVv is in the wrong here though, it's like telling these guys to shell out money first by going to these LAN events, and if companies want to sponsor these guys cause they did well, they'll sponsor them through vVv and "keep" them in vVv academy, all the while vVv investing nothing on the players (except for maybe practice sessions, which could be done by dedicated group of players anyway).
TLDR: i think vVv is "recruiting" players to get $$ with no real "investment" on their part. Please don't put something in quotes that isn't a quote. You need to go to a LAN to be evaluated for sponsorship. If you do not attend LANs and we have applicants that are willing to attend lans then a decision MAY be made to drop you. Lets say you maintain your position in the Academy for 90days, feel your ready to attend a LAN and try to become sponsored... Okay, you get 1-2hundred dollars in equipment. How full of yourself are you to think that if you HAVEN'T attended any lans that you are worth that investment? You will get what you earn.
That is vVv's responsibility to make sure their guys are ready.
|
I still wanna hear what you consider "doing well at a LAN". I realize that its dependent on stuff like bracket draws, but could you maybe list a couple scenarios that you would look upon favorably and a couple that you wouldn't. Could they also not be obvious answers like "if you make the championship pool at MLG, you're in". I'm just trying to get a sense of what kind of performance is expected of your students.
|
On August 14 2011 07:15 Nomad123 wrote:
@keyhunt - apparently, you missed the whole point of the issue being raised by people here (ie, about players being asked to shell out their own money to get to LAN and do well just to stay in vVv academy)
"This opportunity is not for the people who will NEVER attend an event on their own. Very few people got sponsored before they attended a single event. Sometimes, if you believe in something you have to just go for it and put yourself out there a bit." (from KeyHunts post)
I would like to ask you why I should shell out my own money to send you to a LAN prior to you doing something for me? Do you go to work and get paid before the work week? no, you get paid AFTER your have performed. It is silly to expect otherwise.
|
On August 14 2011 09:20 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:12 Nomad123 wrote:
the whole "need to go to major LAN or you're out" thing is the problem, not the $$ needed to get academy members there.
i think vVv is in the wrong here though, it's like telling these guys to shell out money first by going to these LAN events, and if companies want to sponsor these guys cause they did well, they'll sponsor them through vVv and "keep" them in vVv academy, all the while vVv investing nothing on the players (except for maybe practice sessions, which could be done by dedicated group of players anyway).
TLDR: i think vVv is "recruiting" players to get $$ with no real "investment" on their part. Please don't put something in quotes that isn't a quote. You need to go to a LAN to be evaluated for sponsorship. If you do not attend LANs and we have applicants that are willing to attend lans then a decision MAY be made to drop you. Lets say you maintain your position in the Academy for 90days, feel your ready to attend a LAN and try to become sponsored... Okay, you get 1-2hundred dollars in equipment. How full of yourself are you to think that if you HAVEN'T attended any lans that you are worth that investment? You will get what you earn.
Furthermore I think Nomad123's logic is terribly flawed. First players are not good enough to become sponsored, but then they are saying we get money from them? How do we get money from having noname players on our team? No sponsor is going to pay for us to send players with no recognition who won't get results to LAN events.
Either the players are good enough to become sponsored and will be compensated fairly, or they are not and vVv will not receive money from having them. If you are concerned about vVv's willingness to sponsor players who get results, then look no further than vVvReo who represented vVv playing MK9 at EVO and came in second. He is now one of our fully sponsored players.
|
The bottom line is that this has good intentions but sadly I cannot see this working. Too many other organizations can simply easily undercut this for a player who has potential to win a LAN event. There are many "sponsored" teams out there with way less requirements and will give the player more return for their time invested. The only reason why this business model could even remotely work is if their is someone who is a large enough fan boy for vVv that it is their pure goal to join. This would work for a team like Liquid or EG but for vVv, sadly I cannot see this coming to fruition.
|
As someone who decides who makes the A team on vVv. Let me simply say this. I want to see results at LAN. If you take a limb and play for vVv without yet being sponsored (meaning you are just a community member or a part of our academy) that will help your chances of being brought onto my A team.
I understand there are players that can not travel to show that they have the skill to take games off the top players. But I am sorry, sponsors don't care about your online wins. If you are going to break into the game at this point, LAN is the proving ground.
The academy is offering players wanting to break into the scene a chance to really be looked at. Going to LANs is a part of being looked at.
If you have any more questions about what the A team is looking to get from our own Academy team, feel free to pm me. I open my inbox to you, and I can try to explain what we are looking from from the Academy.
Thanks,
Noxie
vVv Sc2 Asst. Manager
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
