|
On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000.
Read this part again:
On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation.
The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas.
If they didn't make it into the top 16, they'd get $0, which wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to get up at very awkward hours just to compete.
|
On August 12 2011 13:15 Redlol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:12 EchoZ wrote:On August 12 2011 13:11 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 13:01 Blasphemi wrote:On August 12 2011 12:57 Redlol wrote:
Nazgul said earlier that he thinks it's reasonable for the Koreans to try to preserve their scene, and I think that's a good point. It's likely a defensive measure by the Koreans to prolong the true explosion of ESPORTS outside their country. People still consider Korea the place to be, and if the NASL is truly competitive that might not be the case anymore, especially with the recent exodus of Koreans to pro-teams.
Give it another year and Koreans will be begging to play in American and European tournaments, they can't preserve their scene forever. Never read something so ridiculous. Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help. You literally didn't think about anything when you replied to this did you? "Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help." That doesn't even remotely apply here, this statement doesn't make any sense. I'll clarify what I said based on what I think you meant though, BW in Korea is still bigger than SC2, of course the Koreans preserved the BW scene just fine. They will NOT preserve their SC2 scene, at least not in comparison to the foreign scene. The foreign scene WILL blow the Korean scene out of the water within one year. It's in the interests of the Koreans to prevent that from happening for as long as they can. But you got to see that the Korean players are a tier higher. Absolutely, but fact is the scene outside of Korea is growing so fast that soon there won't be any reason for foreigners to go to Korea, that means soon the Koreans will have to begin attending foreign tournaments even over attending the GSL.
could not disagree with you more.
the foreigners have already realized and admitted themselves that if they want to become the best, they must train in Korea. in fact I don't think there is much argument on this point.
you say that the foreign scene will "blow" the korean scene. do you think that would be the case if things continue the way they are now ? aka koreans taking all the top finishes?
also. the only reason koreans have to attend foreign events is for more money and what not. they would be completely fine even if the foreign sc2 scene was as dead as BW one .
|
On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas.
And at the same time they can win the tournament and make 40 grand.
|
Well its kinda unfair if NASL only
|
i think this is very sad news. especially since... i dont think GSL pays the players to live in korea. ofc the price pool is very different
|
Hmm seems NASL are bending over backwards. Big wigs who control the Korean teams don't seem appreciative.
|
Seems like NASL tried to offer as much as they could.It just sucks korean teams dont have much sponsors as foreign teams.You could see EG sending guys like machine around the world when he loses every first round,and contrary koreans dont expect a financial loss.People comparing MLG,and Dreamhack you should know that its a 3 day tournament while NASL takes a couple month to actually reach the finals.
|
On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time.
Actually not less than last time, actually more than last time.
|
On August 12 2011 13:27 Namkung wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:15 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 13:12 EchoZ wrote:On August 12 2011 13:11 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 13:01 Blasphemi wrote:On August 12 2011 12:57 Redlol wrote:
Nazgul said earlier that he thinks it's reasonable for the Koreans to try to preserve their scene, and I think that's a good point. It's likely a defensive measure by the Koreans to prolong the true explosion of ESPORTS outside their country. People still consider Korea the place to be, and if the NASL is truly competitive that might not be the case anymore, especially with the recent exodus of Koreans to pro-teams.
Give it another year and Koreans will be begging to play in American and European tournaments, they can't preserve their scene forever. Never read something so ridiculous. Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help. You literally didn't think about anything when you replied to this did you? "Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help." That doesn't even remotely apply here, this statement doesn't make any sense. I'll clarify what I said based on what I think you meant though, BW in Korea is still bigger than SC2, of course the Koreans preserved the BW scene just fine. They will NOT preserve their SC2 scene, at least not in comparison to the foreign scene. The foreign scene WILL blow the Korean scene out of the water within one year. It's in the interests of the Koreans to prevent that from happening for as long as they can. But you got to see that the Korean players are a tier higher. Absolutely, but fact is the scene outside of Korea is growing so fast that soon there won't be any reason for foreigners to go to Korea, that means soon the Koreans will have to begin attending foreign tournaments even over attending the GSL. could not disagree with you more. the foreigners have already realized and admitted themselves that if they want to become the best, they must train in Korea. in fact I don't think there is much argument on this point. you say that the foreign scene will "blow" the korean scene. do you think that would be the case if things continue the way they are now ? aka koreans taking all the top finishes? also. the only reason koreans have to attend foreign events is for more money and what not. they would be completely fine even if the foreign sc2 scene was as dead as BW one .
I only have one counter-example at this time, but Fnatic.Rain actually improved his play a lot since leaving Korea, I think that happiness has a lot to do with work ethic, players will play the best where they are happy playing, and as soon as they realize that we will see the foreigners get more competitive.
While one counter-example is nothing conclusive, it's all I have for now, so I'll concede the point at this time. We'll see what happens in the next year though.
|
On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.
Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.
The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.
Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause.
you would probably make rules to factor in the possibility that any range of their code b/a/s players could be participating. hypothetically in the future, there could be entirely code S players playing in both NASL and GSL... i don't think it's exactly logical to factor that out when trying to figure out what kind of rule-sets you have for your teams in each major tournament
reality is different because we don't know all the conditions of the players and teams as of now.
and personally... i thought the structure of NASL was really confusing (or just something i haven't seen before), and i actually felt bad for some of the korean players who were participating---i felt like there were a lot of games being played over a long period of time, and even if you aren't the one playing in a particular set, you would probably have a lot to keep track of
|
|
|
On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas. If they didn't make it into the top 16, they'd get $0, which wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to get up at very awkward hours just to compete.
I'll say it again, cause I think this is the major problem that alot of people are having with how the Koreans handled it. They knew all this before they had their players qualify. If they felt it was unreasonable, they should have said, 'wait a sec, before we have our guys qualify there's some things we want to discuss money wise and until they are settled we really shouldn't have our players qualify in case we ultimately can't come to a agreement.'
|
On August 12 2011 13:27 Kevo32 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas. And at the same time they can win the tournament and make 40 grand.
And if they don't make it into the top 16, they get up at odd hours for 3 months for nothing. It's not unreasonable to think competing in the NASL might not be worth your time.
In the previous season, NASL offered at least $500 for making it into the top 16 PLUS covering all travel expenses.
|
Who exactly is this committee acting on behalf of these particular teams and their players?
|
It seems that the GSL and MLG partnership is more beneficial and thus the decision to try and leverage the NASL into a similar agreement. While the foreigner scene is exploding, for the time being the skill level of Koreans and those who practice in Korea while remain a huge influence on the ability of Korean organizations to dictate the scene globally.
It is unfortunate to hear that many Korean players want to play globally but may not get the chance to do so.
|
On August 12 2011 13:27 Namkung wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:15 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 13:12 EchoZ wrote:On August 12 2011 13:11 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 13:01 Blasphemi wrote:On August 12 2011 12:57 Redlol wrote:
Nazgul said earlier that he thinks it's reasonable for the Koreans to try to preserve their scene, and I think that's a good point. It's likely a defensive measure by the Koreans to prolong the true explosion of ESPORTS outside their country. People still consider Korea the place to be, and if the NASL is truly competitive that might not be the case anymore, especially with the recent exodus of Koreans to pro-teams.
Give it another year and Koreans will be begging to play in American and European tournaments, they can't preserve their scene forever. Never read something so ridiculous. Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help. You literally didn't think about anything when you replied to this did you? "Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help." That doesn't even remotely apply here, this statement doesn't make any sense. I'll clarify what I said based on what I think you meant though, BW in Korea is still bigger than SC2, of course the Koreans preserved the BW scene just fine. They will NOT preserve their SC2 scene, at least not in comparison to the foreign scene. The foreign scene WILL blow the Korean scene out of the water within one year. It's in the interests of the Koreans to prevent that from happening for as long as they can. But you got to see that the Korean players are a tier higher. Absolutely, but fact is the scene outside of Korea is growing so fast that soon there won't be any reason for foreigners to go to Korea, that means soon the Koreans will have to begin attending foreign tournaments even over attending the GSL. could not disagree with you more. the foreigners have already realized and admitted themselves that if they want to become the best, they must train in Korea. in fact I don't think there is much argument on this point. you say that the foreign scene will "blow" the korean scene. do you think that would be the case if things continue the way they are now ? aka koreans taking all the top finishes? also. the only reason koreans have to attend foreign events is for more money and what not. they would be completely fine even if the foreign sc2 scene was as dead as BW one .
If you want to get better you play in Korea, no doubt. That's why Naniwa Sase and Thorzain are there.
If you want to make money you play in Europe/America. Outside of the GSL Winners in Code S and the ST you make pittances.
|
On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas. If they didn't make it into the top 16, they'd get $0, which wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to get up at very awkward hours just to compete.
Yes, which amounts to 2000. 1000 + 1000 = 2000. Easy. And you're right, that if the players don't make the Top 16 they would get 0. But if they do, they would get 2000.
As for "all hours of the night," there's several problems with that argument. 1) That is not the issue. SC2Con asked NASL for money to cover traveling and costs. If the issue was hours, then they would have stated that. That's not a problem you solve by throwing money at it. If hours were the issue...then the solution is to change the hours, not "pay all expenses." And from what I remember Xeris saying, hours were changed to accommodate Koreans, so that whole argument is completely null at this point.
2) Players like Boxer decided not to participate in Season 2 because of things like hours. The rest of the Korean players? They signed their contracts. So I highly doubt that was the main incentive.
3) Remember we have yet to hear from the players. This whole situation and this boycott didn't come from the players. If they didn't mind the hours in Season 1, I can't imagine they would mind improved hours in Season 2 with a larger prize pool.
|
On August 12 2011 13:32 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas. If they didn't make it into the top 16, they'd get $0, which wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to get up at very awkward hours just to compete. I'll say it again, cause I think this is the major problem that alot of people are having with how the Koreans handled it. They knew all this before they had their players qualify. If they felt it was unreasonable, they should have said, 'wait a sec, before we have our guys qualify there's some things we want to discuss money wise and until they are settled we really shouldn't have our players qualify in case we ultimately can't come to a agreement.'
Because that's a different issue from what I'm debating. I'm just trying to counter misconceptions of what the deal entailed in terms of prizemoney and traveling expenses. The issue of who agreed to what is another issue I haven't yet commented on.
|
On August 12 2011 13:24 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.
Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.
The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.
Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause. July woke up at 5am for a match that never happened. Artosis had to get up at 4am. Just saying, that's what was happening.
Then it's a failure in scheduling by the players, teams and NASL. You could have the Koreans play in the AM which would mean afternoon EU and evening NA. Seems pretty fair. Or NASL could just cast from replay to allow for more flexibility.
But using that issue to support the Korean teams' complaints about travel cost to the finals is totally unfair imo.
|
On August 12 2011 13:32 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:27 Kevo32 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas. And at the same time they can win the tournament and make 40 grand. And if they don't make it into the top 16, they get up at odd hours for 3 months for nothing. It's not unreasonable to think competing in the NASL might not be worth your time. In the previous season, NASL offered at least $500 for making it into the top 16 PLUS covering all travel expenses.
If it is problem for them then they should not be part of the league. It is not like many leagues provide money just for participation.
EDIT:Are you sure that they covered all travel expenses last season ? Because what I got from the OP was that they offered to pay for that, but subtract it from the winnings. So last season the deal was definitely worse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
