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Overall this topic is just beginning to state the same thing again and again.
I'm under the opinion that NASL is obligated to cover their costs (staff, studio, prize pool), and teams are obligated to cover THEIR costs (players, travel, etc).
The sole reason why teams exist is because it allows players to focus on gaming while team management focuses on getting sponsors to pay for the players' expenses, such as food and travel.
Because the responsibility of food and travel does not fall into the NASL's hands, any stipend is more than generous. They are preoccupied with covering their own expenses to be worried about the expenses of others. I never heard oGs/TSL/etc offering to pay NASL for hosting a tournament, and likewise NASL doesn't owe anything to the teams. Both are in the business of getting sponsors, and both have the responsibility to make sure they have enough of it.
If the players felt that it was not worth it, they have a right to that decision. What they do not need is a fake organization making the decision for them and prohibiting them from making the decision for themselves under the threat of ostracism.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 12 2011 13:38 Jisunsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:32 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:27 Kevo32 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:
[quote]
That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas. And at the same time they can win the tournament and make 40 grand. And if they don't make it into the top 16, they get up at odd hours for 3 months for nothing. It's not unreasonable to think competing in the NASL might not be worth your time. In the previous season, NASL offered at least $500 for making it into the top 16 PLUS covering all travel expenses. This is playing with my ignorance so I apologize in advance but is doesn't NASL have flexible scheduling to accommodate the players across the other side of the world? I mean the matches that we were seeing on the the NASL live stream were not really live but pre-recorded.
No, it didn't.
NASL matches were casted live but shown days later. That means they had a set schedule of games lined up from like 4PM EST to 7PM (examples.) I don't know what the times were, but the Koreans were playing in the middle of the night.
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I couldn't go through the whole thread to find out if this has been discussed yet, but how are they going to replace the Korean players?
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On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.
Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.
The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.
Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause.
Some games they were not able to reschedule because they had to take into consideration the schedules of casters and what not, so I heard.
Also, if you watched Code B tourney that was aired this time, you'll realize being alive in a present GSL tournament is not the only time these players will want to be grinding practice hours.
I agree though, NASL is getting the shortend of the deal here. Unfortunately, that's what happens sometimes in business.
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On August 12 2011 13:38 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:35 Mazer wrote:On August 12 2011 13:24 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.
Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.
The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.
Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause. July woke up at 5am for a match that never happened. Artosis had to get up at 4am. Just saying, that's what was happening. Then it's a failure in scheduling by the players, teams and NASL. You could have the Koreans play in the AM which would mean afternoon EU and evening NA. Seems pretty fair. Or NASL could just cast from replay to allow for more flexibility. But using that issue to support the Korean teams' complaints about travel cost to the finals is totally unfair imo. whaaaat, they always casted from replay, did they not? rofl
I asked in IRC and was told they cast the games live but we are shown a recording. I have no idea why they went this route as it really seems to just complicate things.
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I feel that this has been a long time coming! When Koreans were first invited into NASL season one it seemed inconceivable that they would want to pay out of pocket to play to participate in the grand finals. Now that they are withdrawing this opens the door for the NASL to become foreigner only. Let those very same Koreans start another league within Korea as an alternative to GSL. Also, no more 2,3,4am playtimes!
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Well, goodbye koreans. GL and cant wait to see all still playing in the NASL!
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On August 12 2011 11:40 JSy wrote:Some more Korean user reactions from http://www.playxp.com/sc2/global/view.php?article_id=3284548prev post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750¤tpage=54#1077RED1219 (2011-08-12 11:16:04 KST) excuse me but... They're offering $2000 for just coming. Aren't those really favorable conditions?
저기근데.... 2000달러나 걍 오는데 준다는건... 진짜... 진짜진짜 좋은 조건 아닌가여?? 게이보다는레즈 (2011-08-12 11:20:04 KST) Do these guys always make their public announcements so hostile? Even before everytime a player dropped out they'd twist the words to cast them in a bad light. It's as if the head honchos [at NASL] frikkin love trolling tsk tsk....얘네 웃긴게 맨날 공지를 이렇게 공격적으로 쓰네? 예전에도 선수들 빠질때마다 선수 욕먹으라고 존내 안좋은 뉘앙스로만 써놓던데 윗대가리 놈들이 시비거는거 존내 좋아하는듯 ㅉㅉㅉ.... 무지개역장 (2011-08-12 11:20:06 KST) Although it varies from airline to airline, round trip flight is about $1300, add hotel and food costs to that, I don't think one could say the offer is extremely generous. A player that is conservative and probably save a bit of that money, but if they decide to have a good time (e.g., go to Universal Studios, tour Hollywood) they probably won't be left with much.ㄴ항공사마다 다르지만 비행기값이 대체적으로 왕복 1300달러인것에, 호텔비에 식대를 감안하면 좋은 조건이지만 진짜 좋다고는 할수 없을듯. 절약하는 선수는 좀 남겨가겠지만, 이왕 미국간겸에 좀 놀고 (유니버셜 간다던가, 할리우드 관광간다던가) 이러면 얼마 안남을거 같아요. 전부짱 (2011-08-12 11:22:08 KST) If they were eventually going to pull out, it would have been nice to let NASL know earlier. It seems only NASL loses from this, readjusting schedules...결국 출전안할꺼면 빨리 결정해서 알려주지..nasl만 손해본거네요,다시 일정조율해야하니깐.. 전부짱 (2011-08-12 11:25:25 KST) to 무지개역장, To say NASL should consider and include the cost of what Korean players might spend for leisure while in the States... is just... hul-_-;;무지개역장/....nasl 쪽에서, 한국선수들이 미국에서 놀거나, 관광할것을 생각하고 지원금을 책정 해야한다....;라는....건;;;;헐...-_-;; RED1219 (2011-08-12 11:26:41 KST) You go to a tournament to win it. You don't go to take the allowance they give you to party and have a good time. Honestly, having the hotel and food costs paid for is something to be grateful for, isn't it. [감지덕지: proverb/saying roughly equivalent to, "don't look a gift horse in the mouth"]대회참가가 이기는걸 생각하고 가는건데.. 난 주는돈으로 걍 이길생각없고 놀아야지 이런걸로 가는건가여;;; 호텔비에 식비주는것도 솔직히 감지덕지 아닌가요?;;;
Yeah, the real victim here is the players. I guess SC2con took the gamble of trying to issue the ultimatum for more monies. Very common negotiation tactic (accept within short amount of time OR ELSE NOTHING). I think they think NASL is loaded. I hope they know that NASL is just a bunch of community guys that somehow got some money and apparently stuck a large chunk of that into prize pool instead of production lol.
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So to summarize. (and to make it clearer I'll just focus on the numbers, i.e. MONEY, here)
+ Show Spoiler +
Assume a Korean player that gets through the 2 months of league (plenty of people have already discussed what this entails for players and why some have said they probably won't play in NASL anytime soon) and made it to Ro16.
Let's see what they were guaranteed for NASL 1 and what was offered was NASL 2:
NASL 1
Ro16 prize: $500
Travel and accommodations provided by NASL (previously stated to have cost ~$1700)
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: ~$2200
NASL 2
Ro16 prize: $1000 (raised by NASL to help cover costs for players having to travel to the finals event)
Travel stipend for Korean players: $1000
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: $2000
NASL1 vs NASL2
~$2200 vs $2000 (PER PLAYER)
Not a big difference, but one maybe SC2Con coaches were not expecting to have to cover PER PLAYER.
So, despite all of the changes and concessions NASL made to try and help Korean players compete in NASL, the guaranteed earnings are lower.
And of course there are plenty of other factors: conflicts with other competitions/GSL this time around, changes in travel/accommodations cost for the players managing that on their own.
Not to mention, with the way the prize pool was restructured not only is the guaranteed Ro16 prize smaller (for the Koreans), but the potential prize from advancing in the finals bracket is also smaller.
For those that seem to want to hash out the soundness of the decision making on the part of the Koreans. That's my take. But honestly, it's up to the teams and players which tournaments they choose to participate in and we haven't heard a statement on why they chose to withdraw from NASL 2 so why the churn!?
What I am really interested in is why it happened so late and not beforehand, as SlayerS did? NASL OP clearly puts SC2Con in a bad light, but what's the full story?
Maybe they were expecting the same accommodations by NASL that they received for NASL 1? Which, if I did it right above, were better in NASL 1 than is offered in NASL 2
Is it really just childish revenge for how the signing of Puma went down? I.e., well you say you were fine in talking to Puma and you took him from us (TSL/Korea) because we didn't have a contract with him so now we're gonna screw you by pretending to participate right up until we actually sign a contract neener neener neeener. (I REALLY hope this isn't it... *facepalm*)
edit: spoiler, seems I misread the OP, the above is wrong wrong wrong
Anyway, I now go back to eyeing PlayXP for any news/response.
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Kind of disappointing that they couldn't work something out.
It doesn't look good for the Korean scene to be so demanding with wanting 100% of travel + other expenses. I can't imagine how the Korean scene would respond if it was expected that Koreans pay for Foreigners travel to play in the GSL and other leagues.
Good luck to the NASL in continuing, I'm sure everything will be fine either way
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On August 12 2011 13:43 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:38 Jisunsu wrote:On August 12 2011 13:32 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:27 Kevo32 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:
[quote]
Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website.
Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas. And at the same time they can win the tournament and make 40 grand. And if they don't make it into the top 16, they get up at odd hours for 3 months for nothing. It's not unreasonable to think competing in the NASL might not be worth your time. In the previous season, NASL offered at least $500 for making it into the top 16 PLUS covering all travel expenses. This is playing with my ignorance so I apologize in advance but is doesn't NASL have flexible scheduling to accommodate the players across the other side of the world? I mean the matches that we were seeing on the the NASL live stream were not really live but pre-recorded. No, it didn't. NASL matches were casted live but shown days later. That means they had a set schedule of games lined up from like 4PM EST to 7PM (examples.) I don't know what the times were, but the Koreans were playing in the middle of the night.
Many thanks for the clarification
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On August 12 2011 13:45 Mazer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:38 nanaoei wrote:On August 12 2011 13:35 Mazer wrote:On August 12 2011 13:24 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.
Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.
The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.
Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause. July woke up at 5am for a match that never happened. Artosis had to get up at 4am. Just saying, that's what was happening. Then it's a failure in scheduling by the players, teams and NASL. You could have the Koreans play in the AM which would mean afternoon EU and evening NA. Seems pretty fair. Or NASL could just cast from replay to allow for more flexibility. But using that issue to support the Korean teams' complaints about travel cost to the finals is totally unfair imo. whaaaat, they always casted from replay, did they not? rofl I asked in IRC and was told they cast the games live but we are shown a recording. I have no idea why they went this route as it really seems to just complicate things.
I'm just guessing, but I assume it might be to avoid de-sync issues with the way replay viewing cannot be shared with the current SC2/Battle.net
For the best of best, big-name games, I assume they wanted the highest production values possible. A worthwhile effort that unfortunately came at the expense of convenient game times, and sleep, for some players.
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good, very good, it will be as it should, mostly foreigners and a couple of Koreans so it s more interesting, without knowing who will be the top 8
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On August 12 2011 13:49 Geo.Rion wrote:
good, very good, it will be as it should, mostly foreigners and a couple of Koreans so it s more interesting, without knowing who will be the top 8
Less Koreans just mean there will be those Koreans in the top 8 (MLG for example)
More Koreans = more variability since they can take each others out
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On August 12 2011 13:49 JSy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:45 Mazer wrote:On August 12 2011 13:38 nanaoei wrote:On August 12 2011 13:35 Mazer wrote:On August 12 2011 13:24 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.
Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.
The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.
Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause. July woke up at 5am for a match that never happened. Artosis had to get up at 4am. Just saying, that's what was happening. Then it's a failure in scheduling by the players, teams and NASL. You could have the Koreans play in the AM which would mean afternoon EU and evening NA. Seems pretty fair. Or NASL could just cast from replay to allow for more flexibility. But using that issue to support the Korean teams' complaints about travel cost to the finals is totally unfair imo. whaaaat, they always casted from replay, did they not? rofl I asked in IRC and was told they cast the games live but we are shown a recording. I have no idea why they went this route as it really seems to just complicate things. I'm just guessing, but I assume it might be to avoid de-sync issues with the way replay viewing cannot be shared with the current SC2/Battle.net For the best of best, big-name games, I assume they wanted the highest production values possible. A worthwhile effort that unfortunately came at the expense of convenient game times, and sleep, for some players.
I already explained why (Xeris said players cannot be trusted to schedule their own games), has nothing to do with de-sync issues because they're in the same studio, I mean the NASL Playoffs weren't live-casted (they were done off replays) and there were no problems except one person not showing up and defualting, dunno why they can't just do that.
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On August 12 2011 13:31 Redlol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:27 Namkung wrote:On August 12 2011 13:15 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 13:12 EchoZ wrote:On August 12 2011 13:11 Redlol wrote:On August 12 2011 13:01 Blasphemi wrote:On August 12 2011 12:57 Redlol wrote:
Nazgul said earlier that he thinks it's reasonable for the Koreans to try to preserve their scene, and I think that's a good point. It's likely a defensive measure by the Koreans to prolong the true explosion of ESPORTS outside their country. People still consider Korea the place to be, and if the NASL is truly competitive that might not be the case anymore, especially with the recent exodus of Koreans to pro-teams.
Give it another year and Koreans will be begging to play in American and European tournaments, they can't preserve their scene forever. Never read something so ridiculous. Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help. You literally didn't think about anything when you replied to this did you? "Koreans have preserved their starcraft scene for ten years with zero foreign help." That doesn't even remotely apply here, this statement doesn't make any sense. I'll clarify what I said based on what I think you meant though, BW in Korea is still bigger than SC2, of course the Koreans preserved the BW scene just fine. They will NOT preserve their SC2 scene, at least not in comparison to the foreign scene. The foreign scene WILL blow the Korean scene out of the water within one year. It's in the interests of the Koreans to prevent that from happening for as long as they can. But you got to see that the Korean players are a tier higher. Absolutely, but fact is the scene outside of Korea is growing so fast that soon there won't be any reason for foreigners to go to Korea, that means soon the Koreans will have to begin attending foreign tournaments even over attending the GSL. could not disagree with you more. the foreigners have already realized and admitted themselves that if they want to become the best, they must train in Korea. in fact I don't think there is much argument on this point. you say that the foreign scene will "blow" the korean scene. do you think that would be the case if things continue the way they are now ? aka koreans taking all the top finishes? also. the only reason koreans have to attend foreign events is for more money and what not. they would be completely fine even if the foreign sc2 scene was as dead as BW one . I only have one counter-example at this time, but Fnatic.Rain actually improved his play a lot since leaving Korea, I think that happiness has a lot to do with work ethic, players will play the best where they are happy playing, and as soon as they realize that we will see the foreigners get more competitive. While one counter-example is nothing conclusive, it's all I have for now, so I'll concede the point at this time. We'll see what happens in the next year though.
That's highly arguable that Rain improved a lot since leaving Korea. At the time he left, he was a borderline Code S player who gave up his Code S spot after joining Fnatic. After leaving, he finished behind 3 players in Code A (1 of which got Code S from MLG), and a player in Code B.
On August 12 2011 13:35 Mazer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:24 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.
Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.
The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.
Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause. July woke up at 5am for a match that never happened. Artosis had to get up at 4am. Just saying, that's what was happening. Then it's a failure in scheduling by the players, teams and NASL. You could have the Koreans play in the AM which would mean afternoon EU and evening NA. Seems pretty fair. Or NASL could just cast from replay to allow for more flexibility. But using that issue to support the Korean teams' complaints about travel cost to the finals is totally unfair imo.
It's not unfair because it obviously plays a part in their decision as to whether or not a tournament is "Worth it." And the scheduling isn't done by the teams or players, it's done by NASL.
On August 12 2011 13:38 Jisunsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:32 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:27 Kevo32 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:27 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:On August 12 2011 12:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:38 Brian333 wrote:On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:
[quote]
That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going. Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website. Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes. Brian, don't know if you saw this post earlier from the NASL poster , going to assume you missed it: I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.The 2k they offered was more than enough then and I don't see why it would be any different for season 2. I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. Honestly, I don't think you understood. They made an offer of a thousand, which was rejected, so they made an offer of 2000. Read this part again: On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. The only thing that NASL is paying upfront is the $1000 stipend. The other "1000" they claim is part of that "2000" is changing their prize structure around so that making it into the top 16 guarantees you win at least 1000, and they're asking the Koreans to pay the rest of that money out of that guaranteed 1000. So if the traveling expenses were 1650, then the only thing the Koreans would get for making it into the top 16 would be a $350 profit. Not enough in many player's minds for 3 months of playing at odd hours and traveling overseas. And at the same time they can win the tournament and make 40 grand. And if they don't make it into the top 16, they get up at odd hours for 3 months for nothing. It's not unreasonable to think competing in the NASL might not be worth your time. In the previous season, NASL offered at least $500 for making it into the top 16 PLUS covering all travel expenses. This is playing with my ignorance so I apologize in advance but is doesn't NASL have flexible scheduling to accommodate the players across the other side of the world? I mean the matches that we were seeing on the the NASL live stream were not really live but pre-recorded.
If they did, then July wouldn't have to wake up @ 5am for a match that never happened. The online stages of NASL were plagued by scheduling issues from no shows to people not making it back to their homes in time for matches, to having players get up @ 4am to play.
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On August 12 2011 13:49 Geo.Rion wrote:
good, very good, it will be as it should, mostly foreigners and a couple of Koreans so it s more interesting, without knowing who will be the top 8
Disagree. Foreigners shouldn't be sheltered from the highest skilled players in the world, they should be playing them and eventually becoming them.
This news is bad for the fans imo.
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This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.
As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma).
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NASL should also close a possible loop where Koreans can enter through the open bracket pool play if Koreans try to cut corners and win it that way
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On August 12 2011 13:47 JSy wrote:
So to summarize. (and to make it clearer I'll just focus on the numbers, i.e. MONEY, here)
Assume a Korean player that gets through the 2 months of league (plenty of people have already discussed what this entails for players and why some have said they probably won't play in NASL anytime soon) and made it to Ro16.
Let's see what they were guaranteed for NASL 1 and what was offered was NASL 2:
NASL 1
Ro16 prize: $500
Travel and accommodations provided by NASL (previously stated to have cost ~$1700)
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: ~$2200
NASL 2
Ro16 prize: $1000 (raised by NASL to help cover costs for players having to travel to the finals event)
Travel stipend for Korean players: $1000
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: $2000
NASL1 vs NASL2
~$2200 vs $2000 (PER PLAYER)
Not a big difference, but one maybe SC2Con coaches were not expecting to have to cover PER PLAYER.
So, despite all of the changes and concessions NASL made to try and help Korean players compete in NASL, the guaranteed earnings are lower.
And of course there are plenty of other factors: conflicts with other competitions/GSL this time around, changes in travel/accommodations cost for the players managing that on their own.
Not to mention, with the way the prize pool was restructured not only is the guaranteed Ro16 prize smaller (for the Koreans), but the potential prize from advancing in the finals bracket is also smaller.
For those that seem to want to hash out the soundness of the decision making on the part of the Koreans. That's my take. But honestly, it's up to the teams and players which tournaments they choose to participate in and we haven't heard a statement on why they chose to withdraw from NASL 2 so why the churn!?
What I am really interested in is why it happened so late and note beforehand, as SlayerS did? NASL in the OP clearly is painting SC2Con in a bad light, but what's the full story?
Maybe they were expecting the same accommodations by NASL that they received for NASL 1? Which, if I did it right above, were better in NASL 1 than is offered in NASL 2 (despite NASL trying to word it as if they are making even more concessions).
Is it really just childish revenge for how the signing of Puma went down? I.e., well you say you were fine in talking to Puma and you took him from us (TSL/Korea) because we didn't have a contract with him so now we're gonna screw you by pretending to participate right up until we actually sign a contract neener neener neeener. (I REALLY hope this isn't it... *facepalm*)
Anyway, I now go back to eyeing PlayXP for any news/response.
Your info is wrong. Nasl season 1 gave a $500 travel stipend in season one.
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EPT
