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On August 12 2011 13:53 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:47 JSy wrote:
So to summarize. (and to make it clearer I'll just focus on the numbers, i.e. MONEY, here)
Assume a Korean player that gets through the 2 months of league (plenty of people have already discussed what this entails for players and why some have said they probably won't play in NASL anytime soon) and made it to Ro16.
Let's see what they were guaranteed for NASL 1 and what was offered was NASL 2:
NASL 1
Ro16 prize: $500
Travel and accommodations provided by NASL (previously stated to have cost ~$1700)
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: ~$2200
NASL 2
Ro16 prize: $1000 (raised by NASL to help cover costs for players having to travel to the finals event)
Travel stipend for Korean players: $1000
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: $2000
NASL1 vs NASL2
~$2200 vs $2000 (PER PLAYER)
Not a big difference, but one maybe SC2Con coaches were not expecting to have to cover PER PLAYER.
So, despite all of the changes and concessions NASL made to try and help Korean players compete in NASL, the guaranteed earnings are lower.
And of course there are plenty of other factors: conflicts with other competitions/GSL this time around, changes in travel/accommodations cost for the players managing that on their own.
Not to mention, with the way the prize pool was restructured not only is the guaranteed Ro16 prize smaller (for the Koreans), but the potential prize from advancing in the finals bracket is also smaller.
For those that seem to want to hash out the soundness of the decision making on the part of the Koreans. That's my take. But honestly, it's up to the teams and players which tournaments they choose to participate in and we haven't heard a statement on why they chose to withdraw from NASL 2 so why the churn!?
What I am really interested in is why it happened so late and note beforehand, as SlayerS did? NASL in the OP clearly is painting SC2Con in a bad light, but what's the full story?
Maybe they were expecting the same accommodations by NASL that they received for NASL 1? Which, if I did it right above, were better in NASL 1 than is offered in NASL 2 (despite NASL trying to word it as if they are making even more concessions).
Is it really just childish revenge for how the signing of Puma went down? I.e., well you say you were fine in talking to Puma and you took him from us (TSL/Korea) because we didn't have a contract with him so now we're gonna screw you by pretending to participate right up until we actually sign a contract neener neener neeener. (I REALLY hope this isn't it... *facepalm*)
Anyway, I now go back to eyeing PlayXP for any news/response. Your info is wrong. Nasl season 1 gave a $500 travel stipend in season one.
I see you're right. I misread the OP.
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That really sucks. At least NASL was good for one season. Hopefully for season 3 they can get Koreans again and it'll be worth watching.
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On August 12 2011 14:02 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:55 SuitGuy wrote:On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.
As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma). Doesn't it seem more likely that teams will see the $100,000 prize pool won by "inferior players" and cave? NASL basically offered a $100,000 free roll here and all the Koreans have to do is wake up early? THIS IS WHAT THEY DO FOR A LIVING. Sometimes your job requires you to work weird hours, man the fuck up and do your job. If a progamer's job is to win SC2 tournies, then what would you say to the foreigners that get their asses kicked and still don't practice?
I hope you dont actually think that they don't practice. They just don't tend to do it to the same extent.
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On August 12 2011 13:43 whateverpeeps wrote:
Overall this topic is just beginning to state the same thing again and again.
I'm under the opinion that NASL is obligated to cover their costs (staff, studio, prize pool), and teams are obligated to cover THEIR costs (players, travel, etc).
The sole reason why teams exist is because it allows players to focus on gaming while team management focuses on getting sponsors to pay for the players' expenses, such as food and travel.
Because the responsibility of food and travel does not fall into the NASL's hands, any stipend is more than generous. They are preoccupied with covering their own expenses to be worried about the expenses of others. I never heard oGs/TSL/etc offering to pay NASL for hosting a tournament, and likewise NASL doesn't owe anything to the teams. Both are in the business of getting sponsors, and both have the responsibility to make sure they have enough of it.
If the players felt that it was not worth it, they have a right to that decision. What they do not need is a fake organization making the decision for them and prohibiting them from making the decision for themselves under the threat of ostracism.
Shouldn't fair playing conditions be part of what NASL has to cover as well? And right now because they don't have the sponsorship or funding...the teams are doing the only thing they can do by asking NASL. If negotiations fall apart, they fall apart. Things like that happen.
On August 12 2011 13:48 Xavv wrote:
Kind of disappointing that they couldn't work something out.
It doesn't look good for the Korean scene to be so demanding with wanting 100% of travel + other expenses. I can't imagine how the Korean scene would respond if it was expected that Koreans pay for Foreigners travel to play in the GSL and other leagues.
Good luck to the NASL in continuing, I'm sure everything will be fine either way
It's not like GSL has an exchange program with MLG and does tournaments where foreigners can basically win an all expenses paid trip into Code A...oh wait. GSL has bent backwards far more to accommodate foreigners in the current GSL than NASL has right now.
On August 12 2011 13:55 SuitGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.
As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma). Doesn't it seem more likely that teams will see the $100,000 prize pool won by "inferior players" and cave? NASL basically offered a $100,000 free roll here and all the Koreans have to do is wake up early? THIS IS WHAT THEY DO FOR A LIVING. Sometimes your job requires you to work weird hours, man the fuck up and do your job.
You're right, who cares about an even playing field where no single group of players have to bend backwards to play odd hours in poor conditions.
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On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.
As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma).
IPL1 had 20k average nearly everyday vs 10k for NASL.
IPL2 is suffering some production woes (website, videos themselves) as well as a few unpopular players making it through qualification making some matchups boring. It still peaks at 14k, averaging 10k usually depending on who is playing (Thorzain, Idra).
Their VOD numbers also look really good.
Even though there are people who just want to see the cream of the crop... there are still people who cheer for the underdog and are "team loyal". The Clippers do have fans too.
For me personally, I won't miss the Koreans. I can watch them anytime because I have a job. For the Korean vs Foreigner drama we have plenty of outlets for that too.
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On August 12 2011 13:59 DyEnasTy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 13:47 JSy wrote:
So to summarize. (and to make it clearer I'll just focus on the numbers, i.e. MONEY, here)
Assume a Korean player that gets through the 2 months of league (plenty of people have already discussed what this entails for players and why some have said they probably won't play in NASL anytime soon) and made it to Ro16.
Let's see what they were guaranteed for NASL 1 and what was offered was NASL 2:
NASL 1
Ro16 prize: $500
Travel and accommodations provided by NASL (previously stated to have cost ~$1700)
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: ~$2200
NASL 2
Ro16 prize: $1000 (raised by NASL to help cover costs for players having to travel to the finals event)
Travel stipend for Korean players: $1000
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: $2000
NASL1 vs NASL2
~$2200 vs $2000 (PER PLAYER)
Not a big difference, but one maybe SC2Con coaches were not expecting to have to cover PER PLAYER.
So, despite all of the changes and concessions NASL made to try and help Korean players compete in NASL, the guaranteed earnings are lower.
And of course there are plenty of other factors: conflicts with other competitions/GSL this time around, changes in travel/accommodations cost for the players managing that on their own.
Not to mention, with the way the prize pool was restructured not only is the guaranteed Ro16 prize smaller (for the Koreans), but the potential prize from advancing in the finals bracket is also smaller.
For those that seem to want to hash out the soundness of the decision making on the part of the Koreans. That's my take. But honestly, it's up to the teams and players which tournaments they choose to participate in and we haven't heard a statement on why they chose to withdraw from NASL 2 so why the churn!?
What I am really interested in is why it happened so late and note beforehand, as SlayerS did? NASL in the OP clearly is painting SC2Con in a bad light, but what's the full story?
Maybe they were expecting the same accommodations by NASL that they received for NASL 1? Which, if I did it right above, were better in NASL 1 than is offered in NASL 2 (despite NASL trying to word it as if they are making even more concessions).
Is it really just childish revenge for how the signing of Puma went down? I.e., well you say you were fine in talking to Puma and you took him from us (TSL/Korea) because we didn't have a contract with him so now we're gonna screw you by pretending to participate right up until we actually sign a contract neener neener neeener. (I REALLY hope this isn't it... *facepalm*)
Anyway, I now go back to eyeing PlayXP for any news/response. Did I miss the part where they said they paid for travel besides the $500 in season 1?
Nope you didn't, I missed the part where they gave $500 and just helped with travel by paying for plane tickets up front and later deducting those from winnings. Edited to hide the misinformation.
And then you turn around and throw shit saying that all koreans are shoving a giant middle finger in the air to NASL due to the PuMa incident?
And no, I specifically say I hope that isn't what they are doing. lol (In seriousness, I doubt that would be the case. It'd just be too ridiculous and reek of bad drama if it were the reason behind the decision.)
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It sucks that an organization can make this decision for all the players and all the teams. Shouldn't it be up to each team whether or not they can afford to send their players?
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Just wanted to point out that bringing foreigners to play in code s/a is a business decision that increases viewership of GomTV. It is absolutely not some benevolent act on the part of the Koreans, they stand to profit from it make no mistake. I believe that the tasteosis stream/vods already has more viewers than the korean stream does(loosely remembered tasteless quote). This is a significant factor in the reasoning behind why you see that it's Pepsi GSL and not 'insert Korean company' GSL.
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This seems like a very weird decision by the Koreans.
It's an online tournament where only the finals are played live. For NASL, the 1st place prize is $50,000, but for MLG (for example), the 1st place prize is only $5,000, and yet they withdraw from NASL because of travel expenses?
I would think that teams would judge travel expenses based off the potential winnings.
Seems like there has to be something else going on.
*puts on tin foil hat*
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On August 12 2011 14:14 MrSexington wrote:
This seems like a very weird decision by the Koreans.
It's an online tournament where only the finals are played live. For NASL, the 1st place prize is $50,000, but for MLG (for example), the 1st place prize is only $5,000, and yet they withdraw from NASL because of travel expenses?
I would think that teams would judge travel expenses based off the potential winnings.
Seems like there has to be something else going on.
*puts on tin foil hat*
For the most part, the Korean players that have come over to MLGs have either done so on MLGs dime or on the dime of a foreign sponsor.
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I'm actually a bit glad about this. It's called the NORTH AMERICAN star league, and yet could we really say it was a truly NA league?? I mean i guess having Europeans in it is ok since NA and Euro is pretty close in regards to skill level and practice schedule. Btw, when i say korean, i mean people playing from korea, like HuK, MC, etc...
And when i say NA i mean players that play in NA, like SeleCT, IdrA, etc...
It's fine to have everyone in the GSL since its called the Global StarCraft League, but honestly i'd much rather prefer a more regional based NASL >.>
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I find it hard to believe travel expenses was the problem here, especially considering it really only affects what, maybe 10 korean players in the tournment. 2k just for showing up is more than enough to fly to and from and feed yourself for a weekend. You break even at worst, you get to travel and see the world and you most importantly get your sponsors name out there.
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On August 12 2011 14:04 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:02 dabom88 wrote:
So no Koreans. This along with the stupid map decisions, I probably wont be paying attention to NASL. Shame, NASL had so much potential too. I could be wrong, but weren't the maps more or less decided by the viewers. Like I said, I'm not sure if thats 100% correct.
It's not the maps themselves (only Antiga bothers me). It's mainly stupid stuff like Rocks on Metalopolis and Cross Spawns only.
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On August 12 2011 14:15 cydereal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:14 MrSexington wrote:
This seems like a very weird decision by the Koreans.
It's an online tournament where only the finals are played live. For NASL, the 1st place prize is $50,000, but for MLG (for example), the 1st place prize is only $5,000, and yet they withdraw from NASL because of travel expenses?
I would think that teams would judge travel expenses based off the potential winnings.
Seems like there has to be something else going on.
*puts on tin foil hat* For the most part, the Korean players that have come over to MLGs have either done so on MLGs dime or on the dime of a foreign sponsor.
Hm... I guess you're right.
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Really sucks to not see all these Korean players. Even though it may cost them a decent amount of money for travel expenses, I think NASL's offer was reasonable, and in all honesty, if they make it past the first round of the grand finals stage, they get a decent amount of prize money. It was $1500 last season, which in conjunction with NASL's stipend would cover travel expenses, plus your not of the tournament... You would think the opportunity of a 50K prize would be worth it...Isn't the season two prize pool supposed to be larger than season 1?
Maybe we will see Korean players start joining foreign teams to be able to compete in some of the larger foreign tournaments a bit more effectively.
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On August 12 2011 14:14 MrSexington wrote:
This seems like a very weird decision by the Koreans.
It's an online tournament where only the finals are played live. For NASL, the 1st place prize is $50,000, but for MLG (for example), the 1st place prize is only $5,000, and yet they withdraw from NASL because of travel expenses?
I would think that teams would judge travel expenses based off the potential winnings.
Seems like there has to be something else going on.
*puts on tin foil hat*
That $5000 is over the course of three days. NASL is a lot longer and then there is the MLG & GSL seeded players which get their travel costs for free. The only players that have travelled to MLG from Korea on their own accord(No GSL/MLG sponsorship) are SlayerSGanzi and SlayerSAlicia afaik.
Edit: Forgot there was July too!
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Will still watch NASL! What they did was very reasonable, and i think they are doing a great job.
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The North American Star League is North American at last.
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On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.
As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma).
But there's plenty of Koreans still in the tournament and I wouldn't be surprised come tournament time there will be even MORE Koreans that we didn't expect.. this just lessons the overall amount of Koreans who will most likely participate which I think is fine gives foreigners a little more of a chance to take home that prize while STILL having the korean talent there.
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It would be a HUGE mistake to not get the koreans to come no matter the cost. Get the fucking best players out there to play in your tournament or its a complete joke. I dont want to see minor league players and I sure as hell wouldnt pay to see terrible players who think its ok to practice <4 hours and still compete at the pro level.
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EPT
