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Korean teams withdraw from NASL - Page 86

Forum Index > SC2 General
3573 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 84 85 86 87 88 179 Next
Goliath0nline
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada165 Posts
August 12 2011 05:26 GMT
#1701
I don't think that's fair of the korean players to ask for
Jinivus
Profile Joined July 2011
747 Posts
August 12 2011 05:27 GMT
#1702
On August 12 2011 14:23 babo213 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:17 DueSs wrote:
The North American Star League is North American at last.



Posts like these just make me wonder. You have no issues with Europeans but do with Koreans?

Yup...mix of hypocrisy and xenophobia it seems.
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
August 12 2011 05:27 GMT
#1703
so are there korean t eams who will participate ?`what is with MVP ?
will the "free" spots given to other players ? i think NASL would be not as epic with way less gamers/games
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
Phant
Profile Joined August 2010
United States737 Posts
August 12 2011 05:27 GMT
#1704
Koreans only had to wake up early one day a week, not much to ask.

I'm interest to hear the players opinions on this one.
Slider954
Profile Joined March 2011
United States342 Posts
August 12 2011 05:27 GMT
#1705
On August 12 2011 14:18 jyLee wrote:
It would be a HUGE mistake to not get the koreans to come no matter the cost. Get the fucking best players out there to play in your tournament or its a complete joke. I dont want to see minor league players and I sure as hell wouldnt pay to see terrible players who think its ok to practice <4 hours and still compete at the pro level.


Really?? So NASL should just bend over and let them have whatever they want just cause of who they are? Think about how that would look to the other players. Plus if you give in once, it makes it progressively easier and easier to give in later down the line. Its a very slippery slope and not a smart way to run a fledgling business.
Best in the world at what I do
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 05:28:57
August 12 2011 05:28 GMT
#1706
can anyone give me an updated list of players now ? who will be the replacements ?

also for all who say "pay them more", there was alot players in MLG open brackets who fly there on their own so why they cant fly to nasl final if they are given 2k ?
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
babo213
Profile Joined January 2011
United States266 Posts
August 12 2011 05:28 GMT
#1707
On August 12 2011 14:27 Jinivus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:23 babo213 wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:17 DueSs wrote:
The North American Star League is North American at last.



Posts like these just make me wonder. You have no issues with Europeans but do with Koreans?

Yup...mix of hypocrisy and xenophobia it seems.


Racism pretty much imo.
I don't get why people want players who they 'can relate to' instead of the best of the best
Femari
Profile Joined June 2011
United States2900 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 05:31:41
August 12 2011 05:29 GMT
#1708
On August 12 2011 14:17 MonkSEA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:14 MrSexington wrote:
This seems like a very weird decision by the Koreans.

It's an online tournament where only the finals are played live. For NASL, the 1st place prize is $50,000, but for MLG (for example), the 1st place prize is only $5,000, and yet they withdraw from NASL because of travel expenses?

I would think that teams would judge travel expenses based off the potential winnings.

Seems like there has to be something else going on.

*puts on tin foil hat*


That $5000 is over the course of three days. NASL is a lot longer and then there is the MLG & GSL seeded players which get their travel costs for free. The only players that have travelled to MLG from Korea on their own accord(No GSL/MLG sponsorship) are SlayerSGanzi and SlayerSAlicia afaik.

Edit: Forgot there was July too!

July didn't have to pay. He won a tournament to come to MLG Columbus.


On August 12 2011 14:28 babo213 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:27 Jinivus wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:23 babo213 wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:17 DueSs wrote:
The North American Star League is North American at last.



Posts like these just make me wonder. You have no issues with Europeans but do with Koreans?

Yup...mix of hypocrisy and xenophobia it seems.


Racism pretty much imo.
I don't get why people want players who they 'can relate to' instead of the best of the best

Some people want to see foreigners cause they're tired of seeing the Koreans dominate. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone like seeing big name people. Some people like seeing underdogs and players that are great people but don't get shown often cause they're not as strong as the best in the world.
Mvp | BoxeR | MarineKing | MC | viOlet | Scarlett | Flash | Bisu | XellOs | Sea | Fantasy | By.Sun
tripper688
Profile Joined January 2011
United States569 Posts
August 12 2011 05:29 GMT
#1709
On August 12 2011 14:03 Mazer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 13:50 tripper688 wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:35 Mazer wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:24 tripper688 wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.

Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.

The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.

Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause.


July woke up at 5am for a match that never happened. Artosis had to get up at 4am. Just saying, that's what was happening.


Then it's a failure in scheduling by the players, teams and NASL. You could have the Koreans play in the AM which would mean afternoon EU and evening NA. Seems pretty fair. Or NASL could just cast from replay to allow for more flexibility.

But using that issue to support the Korean teams' complaints about travel cost to the finals is totally unfair imo.


It's not unfair because it obviously plays a part in their decision as to whether or not a tournament is "Worth it." And the scheduling isn't done by the teams or players, it's done by NASL.


Before Season 1 started, I'd imagine the Koreans were made aware of how scheduling would work. I don't understand how they would get into Season 2 without sorting this out with NASL. I understand that it's a problem and I'm really dismayed that they cast these games the way they do. However, if the Koreans had any common sense and decency, this should have been a major point of discussion before season 2 was even close to starting (with a withdrawal then).

The travel expenses is a completely separate issue. So yes, I think match scheduling has no room in this discussion. It's just an afterthought or excuse for people trying to justify their actions.


I don't think we've heard from the Koreans explaining their stance on the issue yet. As for "afterthought," it might not have been said but can you really blame them if they wanted some compensation for it in order to make it worthwhile? Is it not common sense and decency to try and keep a level playing field for competitors?


On August 12 2011 14:07 mrtomjones wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:02 Condor Hero wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:55 SuitGuy wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.

As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma).


Doesn't it seem more likely that teams will see the $100,000 prize pool won by "inferior players" and cave?

NASL basically offered a $100,000 free roll here and all the Koreans have to do is wake up early?

THIS IS WHAT THEY DO FOR A LIVING. Sometimes your job requires you to work weird hours, man the fuck up and do your job.

If a progamer's job is to win SC2 tournies, then what would you say to the foreigners that get their asses kicked and still don't practice?

I hope you dont actually think that they don't practice. They just don't tend to do it to the same extent.


I think that's his point. Except they don't take it anywhere near as seriously as the Koreans do. If a progamer's job is to win @ SC2, then they should be doing everything they can to win right? It's not a progamers job to attend NASL, they are free to compete wherever they want and there will be other tournaments during that time frame. They don't have to compete in NASL if they don't feel like it's worth the expense and I'm not just talking about money.


On August 12 2011 14:17 DueSs wrote:
The North American Star League is North American at last.


uh...what? Did you forget the Europeans?


On August 12 2011 14:20 Slider954 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:10 Devolved wrote:
It sucks that an organization can make this decision for all the players and all the teams. Shouldn't it be up to each team whether or not they can afford to send their players?



Its like if Major League Baseball decided to have a tournament and invited teams from say Japan and the Japanese league said 'They arent coming unless you pay for all their travel expenses' and MLB says no. The Japanese then say 'Our players aren't coming' The teams/players have to listen to the league, they don't have a choice regardless of whether they want to actually go.


In all fairness, if that were to happen, at least the Japanese league wouldn't be playing at random hours to accommodate MLB and be forced to play on higher latency...w-e that may translate to in baseball.


On August 12 2011 14:20 SuitGuy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:07 tripper688 wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:43 whateverpeeps wrote:
Overall this topic is just beginning to state the same thing again and again.

I'm under the opinion that NASL is obligated to cover their costs (staff, studio, prize pool), and teams are obligated to cover THEIR costs (players, travel, etc).

The sole reason why teams exist is because it allows players to focus on gaming while team management focuses on getting sponsors to pay for the players' expenses, such as food and travel.

Because the responsibility of food and travel does not fall into the NASL's hands, any stipend is more than generous. They are preoccupied with covering their own expenses to be worried about the expenses of others. I never heard oGs/TSL/etc offering to pay NASL for hosting a tournament, and likewise NASL doesn't owe anything to the teams. Both are in the business of getting sponsors, and both have the responsibility to make sure they have enough of it.

If the players felt that it was not worth it, they have a right to that decision. What they do not need is a fake organization making the decision for them and prohibiting them from making the decision for themselves under the threat of ostracism.


Shouldn't fair playing conditions be part of what NASL has to cover as well? And right now because they don't have the sponsorship or funding...the teams are doing the only thing they can do by asking NASL. If negotiations fall apart, they fall apart. Things like that happen.


On August 12 2011 13:48 Xavv wrote:
Kind of disappointing that they couldn't work something out.

It doesn't look good for the Korean scene to be so demanding with wanting 100% of travel + other expenses. I can't imagine how the Korean scene would respond if it was expected that Koreans pay for Foreigners travel to play in the GSL and other leagues.

Good luck to the NASL in continuing, I'm sure everything will be fine either way


It's not like GSL has an exchange program with MLG and does tournaments where foreigners can basically win an all expenses paid trip into Code A...oh wait. GSL has bent backwards far more to accommodate foreigners in the current GSL than NASL has right now.


On August 12 2011 13:55 SuitGuy wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.

As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma).


Doesn't it seem more likely that teams will see the $100,000 prize pool won by "inferior players" and cave?

NASL basically offered a $100,000 free roll here and all the Koreans have to do is wake up early?

THIS IS WHAT THEY DO FOR A LIVING. Sometimes your job requires you to work weird hours, man the fuck up and do your job.


You're right, who cares about an even playing field where no single group of players have to bend backwards to play odd hours in poor conditions.


Again, this is a FREEROLL. All of the players in the event pay $0 to potentially win a large share of $100,000.

This isn't a poker tournament where everyone pays an entry that goes to the prize pool. This is free. When stuff is free, you don't have a say in "fairness". It is FREE.

NASL is putting up a lot of money to run this already. If that requires Koreans (who are on the other side of the planet relative to where the production takes place) to wake up early then so be it. It is a FREEROLL. As in FREE. Did I get across the free part yet?


...This isn't a poker tournament where you go pay and play. They basically play for nothing in unfair conditions for 3 months in order for a chance to win some or basically none of the prize pool. Most events are run basically like a poker tournament, you pay the entree fee (travel) and you compete for the prize. This isn't the case here. If you want to draw poker analogies, it would be if the WSOP had a 3 month online qualifier for players around the world that players had to play through before going to WSOP for the money event. Now imagine if all the players from Europe had to play at 4am in the morning (with an added latency penalty however you want to add that in) while everyone else played at normal times. Given the fact that there is other stuff around, would it be surprising to see Europeans pulling out of this hypothetical event?
"Excuse me I gotta do some vacuuming really fast *vrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm*" Day[9]
ronpaul012
Profile Joined March 2011
United States769 Posts
August 12 2011 05:30 GMT
#1710
On August 12 2011 14:28 CoR wrote:
can anyone give me an updated list of players now ? who will be the replacements ?

also for all who say "pay them more", there was alot players in MLG open brackets who fly there on their own so why they cant fly to nasl final if they are given 2k ?


no word yet. They haven't even said if there just going to invite people or host more qualifiers yet.
I'm a gooner.
TooN
Profile Joined February 2011
1046 Posts
August 12 2011 05:30 GMT
#1711
They dont wanna play. Get over it and stop criticizing the teams and the decisions they are making.

No one here knows the exact reasons why this is happening. So stop making up reasons and bashing people.
DueSs
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States765 Posts
August 12 2011 05:32 GMT
#1712
On August 12 2011 14:23 babo213 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:17 DueSs wrote:
The North American Star League is North American at last.



Posts like these just make me wonder. You have no issues with Europeans but do with Koreans?


I'll rephrase: North American Star League is more North American at last.
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 05:36:54
August 12 2011 05:32 GMT
#1713
On August 12 2011 14:21 Reasonable wrote:
Why not just use a standard scheme: refund all travel expenses upon arrival and provide hotel or housing free of charge?
I kind of wonder the same thing, if that was all the Koreans were asking for. It seems fair to ask for at least that, for ~3 months involvement with the event.

P.S.
North American Star League, this season will be more North American, but less Star, unfortunately.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 05:32 GMT
#1714
On August 12 2011 14:29 tripper688 wrote:

...This isn't a poker tournament where you go pay and play. They basically play for nothing in unfair conditions for 3 months in order for a chance to win some or basically none of the prize pool. Most events are run basically like a poker tournament, you pay the entree fee (travel) and you compete for the prize. This isn't the case here. If you want to draw poker analogies, it would be if the WSOP had a 3 month online qualifier for players around the world that players had to play through before going to WSOP for the money event. Now imagine if all the players from Europe had to play at 4am in the morning (with an added latency penalty however you want to add that in) while everyone else played at normal times. Given the fact that there is other stuff around, would it be surprising to see Europeans pulling out of this hypothetical event?


You really don't want to bring Poker into this in general. WSOP has millions of dollars in prize money. NASL's prize pool is scant in comparison. They wouldn't pull out because millions of dollars were on the line.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
August 12 2011 05:32 GMT
#1715
whjats with Nada and MC since they are in SK doesnt SK pay their trip ?
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
SuitGuy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States186 Posts
August 12 2011 05:33 GMT
#1716
On August 12 2011 14:29 tripper688 wrote:


...This isn't a poker tournament where you go pay and play. They basically play for nothing in unfair conditions for 3 months in order for a chance to win some or basically none of the prize pool. Most events are run basically like a poker tournament, you pay the entree fee (travel) and you compete for the prize. This isn't the case here. If you want to draw poker analogies, it would be if the WSOP had a 3 month online qualifier for players around the world that players had to play through before going to WSOP for the money event. Now imagine if all the players from Europe had to play at 4am in the morning (with an added latency penalty however you want to add that in) while everyone else played at normal times. Given the fact that there is other stuff around, would it be surprising to see Europeans pulling out of this hypothetical event?


It would very much surprise me. I played poker for a long time and woke up at odd hours all the time to play in huge free rolls.

Poker players would man the fuck up and play a free roll because it is free money. Europeans wouldn't pull out of this event. And I already said as much that it wasn't a poker tournament. Look at my post, I said the players have $0 invested in the tournament. When you have nothing invested in the tournament you have little ground to stand on in my book when it comes to negotiating conditions.
Suitin' it up 24/7
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
August 12 2011 05:33 GMT
#1717
On August 12 2011 14:30 TooN wrote:
They dont wanna play. Get over it and stop criticizing the teams and the decisions they are making.

No one here knows the exact reasons why this is happening. So stop making up reasons and bashing people.


That's not the problem - if every player stated they didn't want to play that's one thing. But a Union decides that the players aren't allowed to play, and it seems through reddit (not the most reliable source obviously) that some of the blocked players aren't happy about it (hence why would they try to qualify, I'm pretty sure their teams didn't force them...).
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 05:33 GMT
#1718
On August 12 2011 14:32 CoR wrote:
whjats with Nada and MC since they are in SK doesnt SK pay their trip ?


They're in OGS, which are part of SC2con, so it's my understanding that they'd be barred from going by SC2con.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Cathasaigh
Profile Joined April 2010
United States285 Posts
August 12 2011 05:34 GMT
#1719
On August 12 2011 14:30 TooN wrote:
They dont wanna play. Get over it and stop criticizing the teams and the decisions they are making.

No one here knows the exact reasons why this is happening. So stop making up reasons and bashing people.

They can be criticized very strongly for the way they did this. They waited till the last second and made demands when they knew full well what the conditions were when they first signed up. This is completely on them, completely unprofessional, and very much something for which they can be criticized.
This is the tale of Captain Jack Sparrow!
DueSs
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States765 Posts
August 12 2011 05:34 GMT
#1720
On August 12 2011 14:28 babo213 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 14:27 Jinivus wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:23 babo213 wrote:
On August 12 2011 14:17 DueSs wrote:
The North American Star League is North American at last.



Posts like these just make me wonder. You have no issues with Europeans but do with Koreans?

Yup...mix of hypocrisy and xenophobia it seems.


Racism pretty much imo.
I don't get why people want players who they 'can relate to' instead of the best of the best


ROFL. Racism. ROFLROFLROFL.
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