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On August 12 2011 14:38 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:32 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 14:29 tripper688 wrote:
...This isn't a poker tournament where you go pay and play. They basically play for nothing in unfair conditions for 3 months in order for a chance to win some or basically none of the prize pool. Most events are run basically like a poker tournament, you pay the entree fee (travel) and you compete for the prize. This isn't the case here. If you want to draw poker analogies, it would be if the WSOP had a 3 month online qualifier for players around the world that players had to play through before going to WSOP for the money event. Now imagine if all the players from Europe had to play at 4am in the morning (with an added latency penalty however you want to add that in) while everyone else played at normal times. Given the fact that there is other stuff around, would it be surprising to see Europeans pulling out of this hypothetical event? You really don't want to bring Poker into this in general. WSOP has millions of dollars in prize money. NASL's prize pool is scant in comparison. They wouldn't pull out because millions of dollars were on the line. Ok, replace WSOP with random poker tournament that has a total $100,000 prize pool. That would only make it more likely for players to pull out. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:33 SuitGuy wrote:On August 12 2011 14:29 tripper688 wrote:
...This isn't a poker tournament where you go pay and play. They basically play for nothing in unfair conditions for 3 months in order for a chance to win some or basically none of the prize pool. Most events are run basically like a poker tournament, you pay the entree fee (travel) and you compete for the prize. This isn't the case here. If you want to draw poker analogies, it would be if the WSOP had a 3 month online qualifier for players around the world that players had to play through before going to WSOP for the money event. Now imagine if all the players from Europe had to play at 4am in the morning (with an added latency penalty however you want to add that in) while everyone else played at normal times. Given the fact that there is other stuff around, would it be surprising to see Europeans pulling out of this hypothetical event? It would very much surprise me. I played poker for a long time and woke up at odd hours all the time to play in huge free rolls. Poker players would man the fuck up and play a free roll because it is free money. Europeans wouldn't pull out of this event. And I already said as much that it wasn't a poker tournament. Look at my post, I said the players have $0 invested in the tournament. When you have nothing invested in the tournament you have little ground to stand on in my book when it comes to negotiating conditions. Apparently time isn't an investment? They're in this for 3 months before they even get to the point where travel becomes an issue. That's 3 months of potential conflict with training and scheduling for other events that DON'T have issues concerning playing conditions. I agree with you 100% if it was just the issue with travel but the problem is, it's a time commitment that they could do other things with.
Time is an investment but the investment is tiny. You say 3 months but you only play 1 match per week. Really you should call it 1.5 hours/week for 9 weeks. That is a 13.5 hour investment to free roll for $100,000. Conditions for working aren't always ideal, but sometimes you just have to deal with it. This is a sweet deal for anyone who participates in the NASL. The committee is way out of line to take that away from the players considering the deal NASL put on the table.
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Eff em, they pull this shit then good riddens. NASL will survive and still provide quality games even without the koreans, that's the truth. Dick move doing this just as the league starts as well.
Wanna thank you NASL for being up front about this and really trying to get them to play in the league.
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On August 12 2011 14:34 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:27 Slider954 wrote:On August 12 2011 14:18 jyLee wrote:
It would be a HUGE mistake to not get the koreans to come no matter the cost. Get the fucking best players out there to play in your tournament or its a complete joke. I dont want to see minor league players and I sure as hell wouldnt pay to see terrible players who think its ok to practice <4 hours and still compete at the pro level. Really?? So NASL should just bend over and let them have whatever they want just cause of who they are? Think about how that would look to the other players. Plus if you give in once, it makes it progressively easier and easier to give in later down the line. Its a very slippery slope and not a smart way to run a fledgling business. Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies. Do not use them.
Partially agreed. They are slippery slope fallacies when it comes to ethical and moral issues for sure (Gay marriage shouldn't be allowed... or else people will want to start marrying their pets!). But for a monetary/business decision, it is akin to selling airplane tickets at really low prices. Sure, costs are fixed for airlines, but you don't want to set a precedent where you're weakening your business in the long run.
Regardless, I'm sure NASL thought about this very in-depth. The sponsors probably are only willing to commit to a certain level of risk, regardless of the draw of the Koreans. When they hit that point, they probably didn't have many options.
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I don't understand why SC2Con didn't leave it up to individual teams. If sponsorship money was the issue, then let the teams with the resources to do so compete. Because SC2Con withdrew their players, it seems something else is up.
Waiting for SC2Con for response so we can read both viewpoints. But as it stands, it doesn't make much sense to me. Did the additional travel stipend only apply to Korean teams, at the expense of every other player in the league? That seems unfair to even try to impose that kind of deal.
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On August 12 2011 14:43 udgnim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:41 StUfF wrote:On August 12 2011 14:33 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 14:32 CoR wrote:
whjats with Nada and MC since they are in SK doesnt SK pay their trip ? They're in OGS, which are part of SC2con, so it's my understanding that they'd be barred from going by SC2con. Where does it say they are barred? Stop making assumptions. SC2CON used their collective power to try to bargain for better conditions. Negotiations fell through and as a result several teams have withdrawn their players from NASL. No where does it say that SC2CON has forbidden players or banned teams from sending players. did you even read the OP? Show nested quote +After many hours spent working with our sponsors and writing proposals, it is with our great displeasure to announce that Koreans from oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime will not participate in the NASL.
Did you even read the post? The SC2con teams have withdrawn. There is nothing specifically stating that SC2con themselves have banned Koreans from participation. That's all he is saying. He's not arguing that teams haven't withdrawn.
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On August 12 2011 14:43 binkman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:34 Cathasaigh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 12 2011 14:30 TooN wrote:
They dont wanna play. Get over it and stop criticizing the teams and the decisions they are making.
No one here knows the exact reasons why this is happening. So stop making up reasons and bashing people. They can be criticized very strongly for the way they did this. They waited till the last second and made demands when they knew full well what the conditions were when they first signed up. This is completely on them, completely unprofessional, and very much something for which they can be criticized. Nowhere in the OP does it say that the koreans waited til the last second to bring this up, where is this information coming from? Koreans agreed to the season 1 conditions, and abided fully by them. Second season comes round and they want to negotiate some of the conditions. The two parties can't come to a 'reasonable' solution, so the Koreans say its a no-go. I don't understand where the unprofessional nature of what they did comes into this? Re-negotiating the contract at the end of the season seems like a pretty reasonable expectation to me, or were the Koreans hooked into that same contract indefinitely, until NASL folds? I am sure most people would prefer it that a more amicable solution was found that kept the Koreans in the NASL, but sometimes thats the way the cookie crumbles.
This is from the NASL OP, I've bolded the part where he states clearly that they did wait till the last sec:
We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season.
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this is ridiculous by Koreans coaches.
IF I was nestea or MVP, or MC, I would just ignore the union and Pay out of own pocket to compete at NASL.
If Korean teams don't have the balls to take a gamble at winning 40,000 dollars for the top winner and 20,000 dollars for the second place, they don't deserve to be at NASL.
Korean teams are losing no money in this tournament, yet they can't take a simple gamble to ge their player EXPOSURE. And increase the chance for the the GSL team to get more Sponsorship money. Really wise business practice by SC2Con. pff
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I am extremely disappointed in SC2Con.
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sorry but if this question is cleared up somewhere in the 88 pages, but what about Slayers?
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On August 12 2011 14:49 Seki Santoku wrote:
sorry but this question is cleared up somewhere in the 88 pages, but what about Slayers?
It's been cleared up 10 times =P Boxer already declined participation even before the SC2Con decision, NASL spoke to Jessica but the reasons seemed to be pretty similar.
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On August 12 2011 14:49 Seki Santoku wrote:
sorry but if this question is cleared up somewhere in the 88 pages, but what about Slayers?
They withdrew before this came up, but for similar reasons
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2k would have been enough sad korean teams not accept
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On August 12 2011 14:48 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:43 binkman wrote:On August 12 2011 14:34 Cathasaigh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 12 2011 14:30 TooN wrote:
They dont wanna play. Get over it and stop criticizing the teams and the decisions they are making.
No one here knows the exact reasons why this is happening. So stop making up reasons and bashing people. They can be criticized very strongly for the way they did this. They waited till the last second and made demands when they knew full well what the conditions were when they first signed up. This is completely on them, completely unprofessional, and very much something for which they can be criticized. Nowhere in the OP does it say that the koreans waited til the last second to bring this up, where is this information coming from? Koreans agreed to the season 1 conditions, and abided fully by them. Second season comes round and they want to negotiate some of the conditions. The two parties can't come to a 'reasonable' solution, so the Koreans say its a no-go. I don't understand where the unprofessional nature of what they did comes into this? Re-negotiating the contract at the end of the season seems like a pretty reasonable expectation to me, or were the Koreans hooked into that same contract indefinitely, until NASL folds? I am sure most people would prefer it that a more amicable solution was found that kept the Koreans in the NASL, but sometimes thats the way the cookie crumbles. This is from the NASL OP, I've bolded the part where he states clearly that they did wait till the last sec: We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season.
Reading the OP is overrated.
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Does anyone remember when one of the GSL guys (mr.chae?). Said if the scenes were reversed and the big scene was over here (which it is in this case) top players would come LIVE in america for the chance to compete.
Now they won't even pay the costs over 2000?
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149 Posts
On August 12 2011 14:41 Supdude wrote:
Even though I understand many users on the forum are probably students or in the early stage or their careers, it's still amazing to me how many of you don't understand the business aspect of the issue: the importance of having a fixed cost structure for NASL, and the fact that Koreans are doing this because they believe they have more leverage AFTER they have qualified. Koreans KNEW about the travel expenses when they signed up for season 2, so let's not act like they just discovered it costs money to fly across pacific.
I do not know what the contract stipulates. If the contract parameters allow Koreans to bargain for more travel stipends, then it's their right to do that. Personally I consider it unethical (albiet probably legal) business practice to pull a power play like this in the last second.
I applaud NASL to stand the ground.
I join you in saying NASL should stand their ground against any underhanded tactics that SC2Con people may trying to pull (though I am still not convinced that is necessarily the case).
Hopefully next time NASL can stipulate in an agreement that by participating in the qualifiers players and teams will commit to the (already drafted) NASL schedule or face penalties (they pay a security deposit after all), should they qualify. And problems like this can be avoided, or at least not leave NASL holding the short end of the stick by themselves.
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Overall I don't particularly mind -- having good Korean players wake up at 4 am and play through latency and end up looking awful isn't very entertaining or fair to me (and no, that doesn't apply to all the players / games obviously, but I did see some that were awful). This simplifies that aspect, and hopefully means fewer scheduling conflicts.
I just don't really get why they would pull out like this. $2000 guaranteed if you make top 16 -- that's not enough? It seems really strange. Of all the possible issues and problems that they could have participating in the NASL, the travel cost doesn't seem like it'd be one of the major ones. I'm curious to hear SC2Con's statement on this, it seems really strange.
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On August 12 2011 14:46 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 14:43 udgnim wrote:On August 12 2011 14:41 StUfF wrote:On August 12 2011 14:33 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 14:32 CoR wrote:
whjats with Nada and MC since they are in SK doesnt SK pay their trip ? They're in OGS, which are part of SC2con, so it's my understanding that they'd be barred from going by SC2con. Where does it say they are barred? Stop making assumptions. SC2CON used their collective power to try to bargain for better conditions. Negotiations fell through and as a result several teams have withdrawn their players from NASL. No where does it say that SC2CON has forbidden players or banned teams from sending players. did you even read the OP? After many hours spent working with our sponsors and writing proposals, it is with our great displeasure to announce that Koreans from oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime will not participate in the NASL. Did you even read the post? The SC2con teams have withdrawn. There is nothing specifically stating that SC2con themselves have banned Koreans from participation. That's all he is saying. He's not arguing that teams haven't withdrawn.
Gee I don't know. When the worker's union you're a part of goes on strike, I don't think they'd be very happy if you just ignored them and continue working.
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shit like this makes me want kespa for fucking organization
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the worst thing of all is the TIME
why the koreans not ask for this BEFORE qualifer ? why they kicked out some awesome gamers in the 1st round who have no chance now ?
thats whats makes me more angry then sad that they wait until start to get what they want 
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I think this is really unfortunate, but also I think the blame should lie with SC2Con and not NASL. It sounds like NASL was pretty much blindsided with these new demands and they did what they could, within reason and time allotted, to accommodate the Korean teams. They even went as far as to propose a complete redistribution of the prize pool for the entire league so that they could more easily afford the trip. I would call the bending over backwards to accommodate them and it is a shame that, at least from the information that was presented, the Korean teams couldn't at least try to meet somewhere in the middle.
I think this is actually a great opportunity for NASL to shine and I don't think that it cheapens the competition at all. I think it will prove that even if the Koreans aren't there, you can still have an incredibly high level of competition and have a really kick-ass tournament.
When European basketball leagues have a tournament, they don't say, "Well, if the Americans aren't there, then it's not worth watching." Or when they have a soccer tournament in the US they don't say, "Well, the Brazilians aren't there, so it's not a real tournament." This is an amazing tournament with top tier competition and I don't think NASL should be denied that. So what if the winner of the tournament isn't objectively the "Best in the World"? They are the best in that tournament, and when you consider the level of competition there, that is still a damn fine achievement.
Keep it up NASL! You guys had the stones to put together a first class foreign league dedicated to Starcraft II and I will continue to buy season tickets and support you!
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EPT
