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Korean teams withdraw from NASL - Page 83

Forum Index > SC2 General
3573 CommentsPost a Reply
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GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51478 Posts
August 12 2011 04:54 GMT
#1641
since when was WMF in the sc2con?

good riddance slayers didn't join the joke of the organisation they are.
bring in kespa.
Commentator
Slider954
Profile Joined March 2011
United States342 Posts
August 12 2011 04:54 GMT
#1642
On August 12 2011 13:49 Geo.Rion wrote:
good, very good, it will be as it should, mostly foreigners and a couple of Koreans so it s more interesting, without knowing who will be the top 8


Plenty of people thought that first finals were plenty interesting with the Koreans. So no, not good, not very good at all.
Best in the world at what I do
SuitGuy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States186 Posts
August 12 2011 04:55 GMT
#1643
On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.

As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma).


Doesn't it seem more likely that teams will see the $100,000 prize pool won by "inferior players" and cave?

NASL basically offered a $100,000 free roll here and all the Koreans have to do is wake up early?

THIS IS WHAT THEY DO FOR A LIVING. Sometimes your job requires you to work weird hours, man the fuck up and do your job.
Suitin' it up 24/7
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
August 12 2011 04:56 GMT
#1644
On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.

As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma).

Your numbers are wrpng. Nasl was getting about 15k in viewer and would get up to 20k on certain days. IPL is getting 10 to 12k viewers
www.superbeerbrothers.com
Castrophy
Profile Joined November 2010
United States232 Posts
August 12 2011 04:57 GMT
#1645
I'm wondering what will happen now? Will differnt players be added to replace to the ones who dropped out? And shouldn't SK cover MC's expenses?
Tobon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States372 Posts
August 12 2011 04:58 GMT
#1646
Just bought my Season 2 HD pass. Season one was worth it, and I fully expect season two to be the same, however this issue gets worked out.
SuitGuy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States186 Posts
August 12 2011 04:58 GMT
#1647
On August 12 2011 13:57 Castrophy wrote:
I'm wondering what will happen now? Will differnt players be added to replace to the ones who dropped out? And shouldn't SK cover MC's expenses?


I'm curious about this too.

I'd add back in the top players from season 1 that didn't qualify for season 2. Run a tiny tournament if necessary to break ties.
Suitin' it up 24/7
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
August 12 2011 04:59 GMT
#1648
On August 12 2011 13:57 Castrophy wrote:
I'm wondering what will happen now? Will differnt players be added to replace to the ones who dropped out? And shouldn't SK cover MC's expenses?

Hopefully they will, nasl is waiting to hear from them. If not, then sc2con is really up to something
www.superbeerbrothers.com
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 05:01:27
August 12 2011 04:59 GMT
#1649
On August 12 2011 13:47 JSy wrote:
So to summarize. (and to make it clearer I'll just focus on the numbers, i.e. MONEY, here)

Assume a Korean player that gets through the 2 months of league (plenty of people have already discussed what this entails for players and why some have said they probably won't play in NASL anytime soon) and made it to Ro16.

Let's see what they were guaranteed for NASL 1 and what was offered was NASL 2:

NASL 1
Ro16 prize: $500
Travel and accommodations provided by NASL (previously stated to have cost ~$1700)
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: ~$2200

NASL 2
Ro16 prize: $1000 (raised by NASL to help cover costs for players having to travel to the finals event)
Travel stipend for Korean players: $1000
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: $2000

NASL1 vs NASL2
~$2200 vs $2000 (PER PLAYER)

Not a big difference, but one maybe SC2Con coaches were not expecting to have to cover PER PLAYER.

So, despite all of the changes and concessions NASL made to try and help Korean players compete in NASL, the guaranteed earnings are lower.

And of course there are plenty of other factors: conflicts with other competitions/GSL this time around, changes in travel/accommodations cost for the players managing that on their own.

Not to mention, with the way the prize pool was restructured not only is the guaranteed Ro16 prize smaller (for the Koreans), but the potential prize from advancing in the finals bracket is also smaller.


For those that seem to want to hash out the soundness of the decision making on the part of the Koreans. That's my take. But honestly, it's up to the teams and players which tournaments they choose to participate in and we haven't heard a statement on why they chose to withdraw from NASL 2 so why the churn!?

What I am really interested in is why it happened so late and note beforehand, as SlayerS did? NASL in the OP clearly is painting SC2Con in a bad light, but what's the full story?

Maybe they were expecting the same accommodations by NASL that they received for NASL 1? Which, if I did it right above, were better in NASL 1 than is offered in NASL 2 (despite NASL trying to word it as if they are making even more concessions).

Is it really just childish revenge for how the signing of Puma went down? I.e., well you say you were fine in talking to Puma and you took him from us (TSL/Korea) because we didn't have a contract with him so now we're gonna screw you by pretending to participate right up until we actually sign a contract neener neener neeener. (I REALLY hope this isn't it... *facepalm*)


Anyway, I now go back to eyeing PlayXP for any news/response.



Did I miss the part where they said they paid for travel besides the $500 in season 1?

And then you turn around and throw shit saying that all koreans are shoving a giant middle finger in the air to NASL due to the PuMa incident?
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
hypnoxide
Profile Joined August 2011
240 Posts
August 12 2011 05:00 GMT
#1650
On August 12 2011 10:04 Condor Hero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 09:09 Midgetman101 wrote:
On August 12 2011 09:06 Beyonder wrote:
On August 12 2011 09:03 Fubi wrote:
On August 12 2011 08:17 storm44 wrote:
How about you change your fuckin terrible format. One series and you get knocked out? Who gives a shit if you pay for all their expenses. They are not going to travel across the world only to play for 30 minutes. I think this was a huge factor in why they chose not to participate.


This ^

For 2-3 months, the Koreans had to wake up at ungodly hours every week, play with lag disadvantage, then players like Boxer had to travel half way across the globe... all this to play two freakin games? And you're telling them that their full travel cost wont be covered?

No wonder players like Boxer is withdrew...

Sadly there is truth to this.. I think ret had it worst of all tho TT!

Ret literally lost in like 10 minutes with no shot at redemption and he was number 1 seed...

Yeah what happened to Ret really makes me wonder what the 9 weeks was for.
If I was a top level Korean player and I had the choice, I'd be someone like Puma and just try to hero the qualifiers rather than wake up at 4am for 9 weeks and play with shitty latency.

Lets not forget that playing Starcraft is, you know, their job. Some people have to get up for work at 4am.
Proud hipster of the SlayersCoCa fanclub!
Drium
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States888 Posts
August 12 2011 05:00 GMT
#1651
Wow that's too bad .

Sounds like you really tried to keep them from leaving. Offering to redistribute the prize pool is no small thing. At least there are more koreans on foreign teams now than there were for season 1.
KwanROLLLLLLLED
Jeity
Profile Joined March 2011
99 Posts
August 12 2011 05:00 GMT
#1652
As a whole, including both the months of pool play and the live finals, NASL season 1 was less than spectacular an experience for many viewers--I can only imagine it was worse for the korean players. It's unfortunate they didn't give better notice, and kind of rude really, but I'm not too surprised they're withdrawing.
AllSalesFinal
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States211 Posts
August 12 2011 05:02 GMT
#1653
I am still going to be utilizing my season 2 HD pass, and just like EVERY tournament, some crap games will come out and so will some gems, regardless of who is playing.

Why do people watch college football, when the NFL is the MOST TALENTED? In my case, it is because I love seeing the players that are going to be the future and watch players that live around me and are playing because they love it. College players are not all pro-caliber, but they are still entertaining to watch.

SC2 can be the same way, you can say the koreans are the best all you want, but you can't act like there is no talent or entertainment in NA/EU scene that is worth watching, that is just plain stupid. It amazes me that people don't want to watch a tournament because koreans aren't in it even though you have players like ret, idra, sjow, strelok, select, etc participating in it. That is some sick talent in just those few players.
| MMA | Flash | Polt |
BWILLdur
Profile Joined October 2010
United States100 Posts
August 12 2011 05:02 GMT
#1654
Wow their demands seem a little extreme. Good job NASL trying to accommodate them, you sure tried for the sake of your viewers. Those demands were a little more than unfair. This SC2Con is getting a bit silly.
Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
August 12 2011 05:02 GMT
#1655
On August 12 2011 13:55 SuitGuy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 13:52 Jehct wrote:
This could actually be a really big blunder on NASL's part. If you compare NASL and IPL, NASL was getting ~9k viewers and IPL is getting ~6-7k on average. The biggest difference between the two was the player pool - in every other way NASL is pretty much inferior (even the finals were plagued with technical problems). NASL's viewers were also rising - IPL's have been falling as people lose interest in the lower caliber of play.

As arguable 'unfair' as the Koreans requests were, this lack of Korean presence could really hurt the viewer numbers for NASL. People are seriously losing interest in any foreigner that isn't 100% top-tier (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk) or a fan favourite (TLO, Destiny). I can't imagine even the NASL finals being good now: chances are whatever Korean-trained player turns up will roflstomp the competition (Puma).


Doesn't it seem more likely that teams will see the $100,000 prize pool won by "inferior players" and cave?

NASL basically offered a $100,000 free roll here and all the Koreans have to do is wake up early?

THIS IS WHAT THEY DO FOR A LIVING. Sometimes your job requires you to work weird hours, man the fuck up and do your job.

If a progamer's job is to win SC2 tournies, then what would you say to the foreigners that get their asses kicked and still don't practice?
Phats
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia534 Posts
August 12 2011 05:02 GMT
#1656
wow I cannot believe this really...

Puma wins 50k
MC wins 25k
July 5k

another 2 koreans got to Ro8 which was like 1.5k?
only 3 of them didn't progress past top 16....

I am SOOOOOOOO dissapointed in this "committee" sc2con or w/e.
dabom88
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3483 Posts
August 12 2011 05:02 GMT
#1657
So no Koreans. This along with the stupid map decisions, I probably wont be paying attention to NASL. Shame, NASL had so much potential too.
You should not have to pay to watch the GSL, Proleague, or OSL at a reasonable time. That is not "fine" and it's BS to say otherwise. My sig since 2011. http://www.youtube.com/user/dabom88
Mazer
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada1086 Posts
August 12 2011 05:03 GMT
#1658
On August 12 2011 13:50 tripper688 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 13:35 Mazer wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:24 tripper688 wrote:
On August 12 2011 13:21 Mazer wrote:
Waiting for this to unravel a bit but what a disappointment from the Korean teams at first glance.

Acting as though playing one series a week for a two months is a HUGE commitment by the Koreans is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure it can come at weird hours (~13-15 hour difference to NA and ~7 to EU -> most matches should be worked out with good communication; I really doubt any Koreans would be waking up at 4AM their time to accomodate for NA players primetime) but at least it's conveniently online. I still think the $2,000 guaranteed is pretty decent. It's not like too many of those players are hitting the Top 8 of Code A/S anyways so they should have some time to prepare for that one series and ultimately the finals. In all honesty, it really just comes down to a 3/4 day commitment if they make the LAN.

The worst part is the situation that NASL is left in now. They got totally boned so I really don't see myself siding with the Koreans at this point even if they are in the right about travel costs.

Also, if they're really hurting for sponsorships so much, missing a big event like this and acting the way they have will definitely not help their cause.


July woke up at 5am for a match that never happened. Artosis had to get up at 4am. Just saying, that's what was happening.


Then it's a failure in scheduling by the players, teams and NASL. You could have the Koreans play in the AM which would mean afternoon EU and evening NA. Seems pretty fair. Or NASL could just cast from replay to allow for more flexibility.

But using that issue to support the Korean teams' complaints about travel cost to the finals is totally unfair imo.


It's not unfair because it obviously plays a part in their decision as to whether or not a tournament is "Worth it." And the scheduling isn't done by the teams or players, it's done by NASL.


Before Season 1 started, I'd imagine the Koreans were made aware of how scheduling would work. I don't understand how they would get into Season 2 without sorting this out with NASL. I understand that it's a problem and I'm really dismayed that they cast these games the way they do. However, if the Koreans had any common sense and decency, this should have been a major point of discussion before season 2 was even close to starting (with a withdrawal then).

The travel expenses is a completely separate issue. So yes, I think match scheduling has no room in this discussion. It's just an afterthought or excuse for people trying to justify their actions.
Slider954
Profile Joined March 2011
United States342 Posts
August 12 2011 05:04 GMT
#1659
On August 12 2011 14:02 dabom88 wrote:
So no Koreans. This along with the stupid map decisions, I probably wont be paying attention to NASL. Shame, NASL had so much potential too.



I could be wrong, but weren't the maps more or less decided by the viewers. Like I said, I'm not sure if thats 100% correct.
Best in the world at what I do
StUfF
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1437 Posts
August 12 2011 05:05 GMT
#1660
On August 12 2011 13:59 DyEnasTy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 13:47 JSy wrote:
So to summarize. (and to make it clearer I'll just focus on the numbers, i.e. MONEY, here)

Assume a Korean player that gets through the 2 months of league (plenty of people have already discussed what this entails for players and why some have said they probably won't play in NASL anytime soon) and made it to Ro16.

Let's see what they were guaranteed for NASL 1 and what was offered was NASL 2:

NASL 1
Ro16 prize: $500
Travel and accommodations provided by NASL (previously stated to have cost ~$1700)
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: ~$2200

NASL 2
Ro16 prize: $1000 (raised by NASL to help cover costs for players having to travel to the finals event)
Travel stipend for Korean players: $1000
Total value of making it to NASL Ro16: $2000

NASL1 vs NASL2
~$2200 vs $2000 (PER PLAYER)

Not a big difference, but one maybe SC2Con coaches were not expecting to have to cover PER PLAYER.

So, despite all of the changes and concessions NASL made to try and help Korean players compete in NASL, the guaranteed earnings are lower.

And of course there are plenty of other factors: conflicts with other competitions/GSL this time around, changes in travel/accommodations cost for the players managing that on their own.

Not to mention, with the way the prize pool was restructured not only is the guaranteed Ro16 prize smaller (for the Koreans), but the potential prize from advancing in the finals bracket is also smaller.


For those that seem to want to hash out the soundness of the decision making on the part of the Koreans. That's my take. But honestly, it's up to the teams and players which tournaments they choose to participate in and we haven't heard a statement on why they chose to withdraw from NASL 2 so why the churn!?

What I am really interested in is why it happened so late and note beforehand, as SlayerS did? NASL in the OP clearly is painting SC2Con in a bad light, but what's the full story?

Maybe they were expecting the same accommodations by NASL that they received for NASL 1? Which, if I did it right above, were better in NASL 1 than is offered in NASL 2 (despite NASL trying to word it as if they are making even more concessions).

Is it really just childish revenge for how the signing of Puma went down? I.e., well you say you were fine in talking to Puma and you took him from us (TSL/Korea) because we didn't have a contract with him so now we're gonna screw you by pretending to participate right up until we actually sign a contract neener neener neeener. (I REALLY hope this isn't it... *facepalm*)


Anyway, I now go back to eyeing PlayXP for any news/response.



Did I miss the part where they said they paid for travel besides the $500 in season 1?

And then you turn around and throw shit saying that all koreans are shoving a giant middle finger in the air to NASL due to the PuMa incident?


NASL provided accomodation and air fares but all costs were deducted from prize money.
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