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well, I dont really mind about koreans as a viewer, but please NASL make it easier for them to go even if reducing prizepool is needed
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On August 12 2011 12:23 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:21 Hatsu wrote:On August 12 2011 12:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Even though we haven't heard from them yet, I can understand why sc2con would turn down the offer.
A $1000 travel stipend isn't enough to cover travel costs -- realistically you need at least $1400-1500. Furthermore, a team isn't going to take the prize winnings from a player to cover the extra costs. A team would still have to spend several hundred dollars per person to send them to the finals, and this can be a very significant amount for a struggling team.
That being said, I would prefer that the s2con allows each individual player to decide if he wants to participate in the finals, with the condition that the team will NOT cover the travel costs. This to done to protect the finances of a team, and avoid complaints that could arise if some teams can cover the travel costs and others cannot. Their team should be able to afford another $500 for their player to have a chance at the $100,000 prize pool. I am pretty sure they are in a far better position than you to figure out what makes financial sense and what doesn't. Korean Starcraft players do not exactly strike me as the sort of people who would act irrationally business-wise. If teams can't afford $500 for sending a player to a tournament, those teams are in BIG trouble.
Agreed - this seems to apply to most Korean teams I guess.
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Sigh.. I prepaid for season 2. Oh well, I hope they can resolve this somehow.
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On August 12 2011 12:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:14 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort. they have to play games at the shittiest times and deal with latency. both sen and a bunch of koreans expressed how the times were very unaccommodating. that being said, they should've notified NASL of this earlier and made the decision to withdraw instead of participating in qualifiers which now seems kind of stupid. <--- that is the world's smallest violin playing a sad sad song for the koreans who have been provided a free opportunity to make thousands of dollars. its a NA tournament; you have to deal with NA time zones.
it's not technically "free". it's an investment in the minimum of time and effort to participate and practice for these games at the reward of potentially nothing because you fall out the first round and use the $1000 prize to cover you travel expenses back to Korea. clearly the koreans didn't want to deal with all these things (bad times, latency, expenses, etc) so they withdrew from the competition.
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I would like to hold judgment till I hear the other side of the story, but I can't help but feel that this sc2con is concerned about the growth of SC2 in the west.
I am not familiar with the BW scene, but how did things work for them. Were there any foreign tournaments then? If so did Koreans participate?
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Nasl you are doing good work, we have awsome match to watch everyday cause of you. thats North american starleague, not imported korean league. Hope our level grow and I hope for the best
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On August 12 2011 12:24 Akhee wrote:
well, I dont really mind about koreans as a viewer, tbh the really upset is if idra doesnt go cause I really hate him but the game needs more bms to make it seem important for them, koreans are just so bleh
oh the horror, Koreans playing the game with skill. go watch WWE for fake drama and smack talking
You would think the main reason ppl watch any sport is for the appreciation of the skill, sure drama can be fun, but with no skill and just drama might that's "bleh"
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we will broadcast high quality games every day and bring you some of the very best play the world has to offer.
Not anyone you won't.
D:
Need koreans to show the best in the world.
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On August 12 2011 12:23 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:21 Hatsu wrote:On August 12 2011 12:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Even though we haven't heard from them yet, I can understand why sc2con would turn down the offer.
A $1000 travel stipend isn't enough to cover travel costs -- realistically you need at least $1400-1500. Furthermore, a team isn't going to take the prize winnings from a player to cover the extra costs. A team would still have to spend several hundred dollars per person to send them to the finals, and this can be a very significant amount for a struggling team.
That being said, I would prefer that the s2con allows each individual player to decide if he wants to participate in the finals, with the condition that the team will NOT cover the travel costs. This to done to protect the finances of a team, and avoid complaints that could arise if some teams can cover the travel costs and others cannot. Their team should be able to afford another $500 for their player to have a chance at the $100,000 prize pool. I am pretty sure they are in a far better position than you to figure out what makes financial sense and what doesn't. Korean Starcraft players do not exactly strike me as the sort of people who would act irrationally business-wise. If teams can't afford $500 for sending a player to a tournament, those teams are in BIG trouble.
Maybe. $500 is a considerable amount over there -- it's probably 1/4 to 1/3 of what a team spends on housing and food in a month.
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On August 12 2011 12:26 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:24 Akhee wrote:
well, I dont really mind about koreans as a viewer, tbh the really upset is if idra doesnt go cause I really hate him but the game needs more bms to make it seem important for them, koreans are just so bleh oh the horror, Koreans playing the game with skill. go watch WWE for fake drama and smack talking You would think the main reason ppl watch any sport is for the appreciation of the skill, sure drama can be fun, but with no skill and just drama might that's "bleh"
I just realized what I said will bring discussion to another fact, well, i edited, lets talk about koreans - NASL
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I don't understand why so many people don't understand it. Having to play through 9 weeks of 2 am games, having to pay 500$ in advance(even if you get it back later), and they have to come in the top 8 to even make money is kind of ridiculous. A Korean can do the same thing as Ret, go 8-1 in pool play and lose in a 10 minute bo3, and have nothing to show for 9 weeks of waking up at 2 am and traveling for a week. High level players that are in Code S don't want to disrupt their training schedule by waking up at 2 am and playing with high latency for a tournament that they don't even make a profit on if they come in the top 16.
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On August 12 2011 12:25 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:16 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:14 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort. they have to play games at the shittiest times and deal with latency. both sen and a bunch of koreans expressed how the times were very unaccommodating. that being said, they should've notified NASL of this earlier and made the decision to withdraw instead of participating in qualifiers which now seems kind of stupid. <--- that is the world's smallest violin playing a sad sad song for the koreans who have been provided a free opportunity to make thousands of dollars. its a NA tournament; you have to deal with NA time zones. it's not technically "free". it's an investment in the minimum of time and effort to participate and practice for these games at the reward of potentially nothing because you fall out the first round and use the $1000 prize to cover you travel expenses back to Korea. clearly the koreans didn't want to deal with all these things (bad times, latency, expenses, etc) so they withdrew from the competition.
You're overlooking the benefit these players and teams get by being streamed each week.
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On August 12 2011 12:24 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:22 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Korean Starcraft players do not exactly strike me as the sort of people who would act irrationally business-wise. When they don't contract or pay their players? what kind of poke is that? i think you have some actual reading to do
His point: Koreans run their business well.
My point: they do not, as they don't fail to do very basic things, like protect their assets.
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On August 12 2011 12:19 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Even though we haven't heard from them yet, I can understand why sc2con would turn down the offer.
A $1000 travel stipend isn't enough to cover travel costs -- realistically you need at least $1400-1500. Furthermore, a team isn't going to take the prize winnings from a player to cover the extra costs. A team would still have to spend several hundred dollars per person to send them to the finals, and this can be a very significant amount for a struggling team.
That being said, I would prefer that the s2con allows each individual player to decide if he wants to participate in the finals, with the condition that the team will NOT cover the travel costs. This to done to protect the finances of a team, and avoid complaints that could arise if some teams can cover the travel costs and others cannot. Their team should be able to afford another $500 for their player to have a chance at the $100,000 prize pool.
Umm 2k should easily cover a 3 day trip to america. Flights are around ~1500. 500 is more than enough for hotel and food over 3 days provided modest holdings.
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On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
When they don't contract or pay their players?
Yes, considering Korean culture. It was a mistake, but hardly irrational.
On August 12 2011 12:21 Hatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Even though we haven't heard from them yet, I can understand why sc2con would turn down the offer.
A $1000 travel stipend isn't enough to cover travel costs -- realistically you need at least $1400-1500. Furthermore, a team isn't going to take the prize winnings from a player to cover the extra costs. A team would still have to spend several hundred dollars per person to send them to the finals, and this can be a very significant amount for a struggling team.
That being said, I would prefer that the s2con allows each individual player to decide if he wants to participate in the finals, with the condition that the team will NOT cover the travel costs. This to done to protect the finances of a team, and avoid complaints that could arise if some teams can cover the travel costs and others cannot. Their team should be able to afford another $500 for their player to have a chance at the $100,000 prize pool. I am pretty sure they are in a far better position than you to figure out what makes financial sense and what doesn't. Korean Starcraft players do not exactly strike me as the sort of people who would act irrationally business-wise.
If teams can't afford $500 for sending a player to a tournament, those teams are in BIG trouble. [/QUOTE]
It's not just the $500. It has to be worth investing several hours in preparing for it. I think that, given the chance of winning a big enough prize, it simply was not worth it to them.
Now mind you, they might be wrong. But they have the right to make their own decisions and branding a move like this as "greedy" or "wrong" is pointless considering we don't know their reasons. Hopefully they will release a statement soon.
Edit: fixed formatting
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On August 12 2011 12:22 Saraf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:14 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 12:08 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:03 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. How is this any different than players who don't win money at other tournaments? Look at EG at MLG Anaheim. They didn't have one player win any money. Yet they still paid how much money to go to MLG. Look at TL. Huk is the only player who won money ($500). That didn't cover his cost to fly over, but you don't hear TL bitching about it. Not to mention every other player of theirs that didn't make any money. You are never guaranteed to walk away from a tournament with winnings. Thats why teams use things like ROI to justify sending their players to these tournaments. Teams realize that by going to these events they gain fans, exposure, notariety, and so on. Because most korean teams have little sponsors and could not afford to fly their players around at their leisure. Only a handful of koreans gain enough money to spend for themselves. Well then the Korean teams need to get those sponsors. Thats my point. We have foreign teams sending their players all over the world and more players walk away with nothing than the ones who win anything. Quite frankly even if NASL covers the travel cost and gets rid of the deposit, Korean teams CANNOT rely on tournaments paying for a handful of their players to play in them. Korean teams shouldn't be relying on NASL to pay for everything. If they were, then they should not have attempted to qualify or accepted the positions. Easier said than done. SC2 in Korea is stuck in a loop because they need to spend money to make money. That's not just SC2, though, that's business. You have to spend money to make money. Except that SC2 is more fragile and being in the red means losing your future (as a pro-gamer). Which is precisely why the teams spend money, not the players. The teams are the ones with sponsorships (or with sponsorship troubles, in some cases). And yes, going into the red and being unable to get back out means the end, as it does in business. You have to start your business in the red, it's just how the world works; you can't open (or run) a business without incurring the associated costs.
I agree. However, my point is that this will make or break the entire team if their player(s) underperform. With such a huge prizepool, this will definitely boost the winner's team, but with the length of time needed and the location, it is a hefty investment. Only one player will receive the prize and it would mean all the other koreans/players would have wasted the opportunity. This is okay if all the teams are well-supported.
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This is like KeSPA shenanigans all over again... only the players NOT bound to SC2Con decisions are able to play in this great tournament and take advantage of the 2k? Must be nice to NOT be a part of that situation.
I don't see them balking at coming to MLG, despite the fact that they DON'T get the 2k and they have a lower statistical likelihood of winning....
This is baffling, and angering as well. If I were a player contractually bound to the decisions of the SC2Con, I'd be pissed, and I'd be re-evaluating the career decisions that led me to that circumstance. Bet Puma feels like a boss right now.
On August 12 2011 12:25 JoeSchmoe wrote:
it's not technically "free". it's an investment in the minimum of time and effort to participate and practice for these games at the reward of potentially nothing because you fall out the first round and use the $1000 prize to cover you travel expenses back to Korea. clearly the koreans didn't want to deal with all these things (bad times, latency, expenses, etc) so they withdrew from the competition.
This is NOT the issue... the players DID NOT withdraw... the coaches/representatives of the teams made the decision for them. Imagine being a player in Korea and saying, wait, but I *want* to play in that tournament..... and Mr. Chae is like, "sit the F down, I said no. They aren't paying us enough money...."
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Interesting that this is the same Mr Chae who complained about foreigners declining Super Tournament invites because there was not enough money.
Also, the koreans not bound by the SC2Con can just go and will have tremendously reduced competition. Good chance to win 50k!!!
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On August 12 2011 12:28 Blindo wrote:
I don't understand why so many people don't understand it. Having to play through 9 weeks of 2 am games, having to pay 500$ in advance(even if you get it back later), and they have to come in the top 8 to even make money is kind of ridiculous. A Korean can do the same thing as Ret, go 8-1 in pool play and lose in a 10 minute bo3, and have nothing to show for 9 weeks of waking up at 2 am and traveling for a week. High level players that are in Code S don't want to disrupt their training schedule by waking up at 2 am and playing with high latency for a tournament that they don't even make a profit on if they come in the top 16.
THEN DON'T QUALIFY FOR THE TOURNAMENT!
They knew all of this. And still qualified for the tournament. Just don't qualify if you don't think its worth it.
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On August 12 2011 12:25 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:16 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:14 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort. they have to play games at the shittiest times and deal with latency. both sen and a bunch of koreans expressed how the times were very unaccommodating. that being said, they should've notified NASL of this earlier and made the decision to withdraw instead of participating in qualifiers which now seems kind of stupid. <--- that is the world's smallest violin playing a sad sad song for the koreans who have been provided a free opportunity to make thousands of dollars. its a NA tournament; you have to deal with NA time zones. it's not technically "free". it's an investment in the minimum of time and effort to participate and practice for these games at the reward of potentially nothing because you fall out the first round and use the $1000 prize to cover you travel expenses back to Korea. clearly the koreans didn't want to deal with all these things (bad times, latency, expenses, etc) so they withdrew from the competition.
there is no admission fee; it is free. as for effort and time, so what? its a tournament. you don't show up and ask for your check. everyone risks their "time and effort." also, the travel expenses apply to all non-US citizens (and some who live on the east coast of US).
I agree that it may not be worth their time and money to come to the US for a tournament (although at $40k for first, thats a questionable decision if you are a good player). I have no problem with them deciding not to go. i have a problem with them expecting that NASL subsidize them; treatment not received by other players.
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EPT
