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On August 12 2011 12:10 Haustka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:06 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 12:03 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. How is this any different than players who don't win money at other tournaments? Look at EG at MLG Anaheim. They didn't have one player win any money. Yet they still paid how much money to go to MLG. Look at TL. Huk is the only player who won money ($500). That didn't cover his cost to fly over, but you don't hear TL bitching about it. Not to mention every other player of theirs that didn't make any money. You are never guaranteed to walk away from a tournament with winnings. Thats why teams use things like ROI to justify sending their players to these tournaments. Teams realize that by going to these events they gain fans, exposure, notariety, and so on. Because most korean teams have little sponsors and could not afford to fly their players around at their leisure. Only a handful of koreans gain enough money to spend for themselves. Well then the Korean teams need to get those sponsors. Thats my point. We have foreign teams sending their players all over the world and more players walk away with nothing than the ones who win anything. Quite frankly even if NASL covers the travel cost and gets rid of the deposit, Korean teams CANNOT rely on tournaments paying for a handful of their players to play in them. Korean teams shouldn't be relying on NASL to pay for everything. If they were, then they should not have attempted to qualify or accepted the positions. Easier said than done. SC2 in Korea is stuck in a loop because they need to spend money to make money. Well then they need to either spend the money for their players to go to NASL or don't allow their players to qualify and then pull them out of the tournament when its already started (which is the worst thing about this). correct me if im wrong, but didnt NASL want Koreans to come to US in first place? ofc, Koreans do want to come to US also, but from my understanding is that NASL wanted to invite Koreans FIRST right?
I'm not even sure what you are saying. Yeah NASL wanted the Koreans in the league and if they made they finals they would have to come to the US.
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On August 12 2011 12:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:14 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 12:08 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:03 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. How is this any different than players who don't win money at other tournaments? Look at EG at MLG Anaheim. They didn't have one player win any money. Yet they still paid how much money to go to MLG. Look at TL. Huk is the only player who won money ($500). That didn't cover his cost to fly over, but you don't hear TL bitching about it. Not to mention every other player of theirs that didn't make any money. You are never guaranteed to walk away from a tournament with winnings. Thats why teams use things like ROI to justify sending their players to these tournaments. Teams realize that by going to these events they gain fans, exposure, notariety, and so on. Because most korean teams have little sponsors and could not afford to fly their players around at their leisure. Only a handful of koreans gain enough money to spend for themselves. Well then the Korean teams need to get those sponsors. Thats my point. We have foreign teams sending their players all over the world and more players walk away with nothing than the ones who win anything. Quite frankly even if NASL covers the travel cost and gets rid of the deposit, Korean teams CANNOT rely on tournaments paying for a handful of their players to play in them. Korean teams shouldn't be relying on NASL to pay for everything. If they were, then they should not have attempted to qualify or accepted the positions. Easier said than done. SC2 in Korea is stuck in a loop because they need to spend money to make money. That's not just SC2, though, that's business. You have to spend money to make money. Except that SC2 is more fragile and being in the red means losing your future (as a pro-gamer). They don't get in the red though.
Take it into context as in making no money while team loses sponsors and dissolves.
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On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Even though we haven't heard from them yet, I can understand why sc2con would turn down the offer.
A $1000 travel stipend isn't enough to cover travel costs -- realistically you need at least $1400-1500. Furthermore, a team isn't going to take the prize winnings from a player to cover the extra costs. A team would still have to spend several hundred dollars per person to send them to the finals, and this can be a very significant amount for a struggling team.
That being said, I would prefer that the s2con allows each individual player to decide if he wants to participate in the finals, with the condition that the team will NOT cover the travel costs. This to done to protect the finances of a team, and avoid complaints that could arise if some teams can cover the travel costs and others cannot.
Their team should be able to afford another $500 for their player to have a chance at the $100,000 prize pool.
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You should always hear both sides before you judge anyone or cement your opinions. I think the last couple of weeks have more than proven that. Without an official (counter-) statement of the players or teams involved the only thing i get out of this is that they wont participate.
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On August 12 2011 12:14 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort. they have to play games at the shittiest times and deal with latency. both sen and a bunch of koreans expressed how the times were very unaccommodating. that being said, they should've notified NASL of this earlier and made the decision to withdraw instead of participating in qualifiers which now seems kind of stupid.
This was all known ahead of time. Sure its not convenient, but its not that terrible either.
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On August 12 2011 12:19 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Even though we haven't heard from them yet, I can understand why sc2con would turn down the offer.
A $1000 travel stipend isn't enough to cover travel costs -- realistically you need at least $1400-1500. Furthermore, a team isn't going to take the prize winnings from a player to cover the extra costs. A team would still have to spend several hundred dollars per person to send them to the finals, and this can be a very significant amount for a struggling team.
That being said, I would prefer that the s2con allows each individual player to decide if he wants to participate in the finals, with the condition that the team will NOT cover the travel costs. This to done to protect the finances of a team, and avoid complaints that could arise if some teams can cover the travel costs and others cannot. Their team should be able to afford another $500 for their player to have a chance at the $100,000 prize pool.
I am pretty sure they are in a far better position than you to figure out what makes financial sense and what doesn't.
Korean Starcraft players do not exactly strike me as the sort of people who would act irrationally business-wise.
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Sad story I hate to see that the Koreans don't want to come but it should still be good competition.
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The question is whether or not something like the IPL is successful. They run primarily foreign players, but the prize pool is much much less, so the viewership demands are certainly going to be less.
If the IPL is not considered to be successful, for your own good NASL, do whatever it takes to get those koreans back.
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On August 12 2011 12:14 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:08 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:03 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. How is this any different than players who don't win money at other tournaments? Look at EG at MLG Anaheim. They didn't have one player win any money. Yet they still paid how much money to go to MLG. Look at TL. Huk is the only player who won money ($500). That didn't cover his cost to fly over, but you don't hear TL bitching about it. Not to mention every other player of theirs that didn't make any money. You are never guaranteed to walk away from a tournament with winnings. Thats why teams use things like ROI to justify sending their players to these tournaments. Teams realize that by going to these events they gain fans, exposure, notariety, and so on. Because most korean teams have little sponsors and could not afford to fly their players around at their leisure. Only a handful of koreans gain enough money to spend for themselves. Well then the Korean teams need to get those sponsors. Thats my point. We have foreign teams sending their players all over the world and more players walk away with nothing than the ones who win anything. Quite frankly even if NASL covers the travel cost and gets rid of the deposit, Korean teams CANNOT rely on tournaments paying for a handful of their players to play in them. Korean teams shouldn't be relying on NASL to pay for everything. If they were, then they should not have attempted to qualify or accepted the positions. Easier said than done. SC2 in Korea is stuck in a loop because they need to spend money to make money. That's not just SC2, though, that's business. You have to spend money to make money. Except that SC2 is more fragile and being in the red means losing your future (as a pro-gamer).
Which is precisely why the teams spend money, not the players. The teams are the ones with sponsorships (or with sponsorship troubles, in some cases). And yes, going into the red and being unable to get back out means the end, as it does in business. You have to start your business in the red, it's just how the world works; you can't open (or run) a business without incurring the associated costs.
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On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Korean Starcraft players do not exactly strike me as the sort of people who would act irrationally business-wise.
When they don't contract or pay their players?
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I want to hear both sides of the story before I judge. However hearing just NASL's side, it seems very disappointing that some koreans can't come, especially those who have won a lot of money in the GSL already, such as MKP, MC, July etc. Seems like these players could easily afford the potential loss that could be made by traveling to the finals, especially when NASL pays 2k expenses. Ofcourse there is a risk they will make a loss, but its all about risk vs reward but you have to spend money to make money. I can see the lesser known and less financially secure players having problems, but why are those who can afford it pulling out? Seems like there was definitely some collective bargaining going on in order to increase the strength of their position.
Or perhaps they simply were not impressed by last NASL finals last time.
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On August 12 2011 12:21 Hatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Even though we haven't heard from them yet, I can understand why sc2con would turn down the offer.
A $1000 travel stipend isn't enough to cover travel costs -- realistically you need at least $1400-1500. Furthermore, a team isn't going to take the prize winnings from a player to cover the extra costs. A team would still have to spend several hundred dollars per person to send them to the finals, and this can be a very significant amount for a struggling team.
That being said, I would prefer that the s2con allows each individual player to decide if he wants to participate in the finals, with the condition that the team will NOT cover the travel costs. This to done to protect the finances of a team, and avoid complaints that could arise if some teams can cover the travel costs and others cannot. Their team should be able to afford another $500 for their player to have a chance at the $100,000 prize pool. I am pretty sure they are in a far better position than you to figure out what makes financial sense and what doesn't. Korean Starcraft players do not exactly strike me as the sort of people who would act irrationally business-wise.
If teams can't afford $500 for sending a player to a tournament, those teams are in BIG trouble.
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On August 12 2011 12:11 IAmNeos wrote:
After the shitty first season of NASL, I wouldn't blame them for not playing.
Can people read and stop posting stuff like this?
Obviously if the issue was with NASL and the quality of playing at NASL, then INDIVIDUAL players can back out on their own will.
Instead, we have a committee that has decided to ban ALL Korean players from participating (a union-type boycott), regardless of whether they may personally want to play in NASL or not.
The reason why they did this is because they asked the NASL for certain monetary concessions that NASL did not agree to. NASL responded with their own offer that the committe didn't agree to, and here we are.
This has NOTHING to do with how players feel about NASL.
In fact, I wish we could hear from some of the affected players how they feel about this decision because I can't imagine too many are happy to be banned from playing in the NASL.
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On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going.
The problem is with the $650 that's not covered by the stipend.
The difference between travel stipend and prize money is key here.
My guess is that the Koreans teams couldn't come to an agreement amongst themselves on who would cover the remaining $650. I'm sure some people wanted to the team to pay for it, while others wanted it to come out of the player's prize money. At then end, they had to decide to decline and withdraw from the league.
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Well, I guess you just gotta go with what you've got. You still have tons of highly talented players and it's most likely the Koreans loss since they would most likely do very well in the tournament... I'll still be watching!
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think about it from ur own point of view, do you think Koreans come to US or Europe to play Starcraft or to travel?
ofc... unless u are dumb, no Koreans would wanna spend their time travel the foreign places, rather then play competitive starcraft which many koreans think of this as a career. (at least this is Koreans impression on foreign tournaments while they are doing the interview)
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So does NASL stand for North Asian Star League?
I don't see the problem here tbh.
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On August 12 2011 12:22 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:12 dookudooku wrote:
Korean Starcraft players do not exactly strike me as the sort of people who would act irrationally business-wise. When they don't contract or pay their players?
what kind of poke is that? i think you have some actual reading to do
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how is it that most of the european clans easily cover for the travelcosts? they send players for a lot less...
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EPT
