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On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8.
its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort.
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Is Nada still going to play since he has a separate sponsor for international events?
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After the shitty first season of NASL, I wouldn't blame them for not playing.
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Even though we haven't heard from them yet, I can understand why sc2con would turn down the offer.
A $1000 travel stipend isn't enough to cover travel costs -- realistically you need at least $1400-1500. Furthermore, a team isn't going to take the prize winnings from a player to cover the extra costs. A team would still have to spend several hundred dollars per person to send them to the finals, and this can be a very significant amount for a struggling team.
That being said, I would prefer that the s2con allows each individual player to decide if he wants to participate in the finals, with the condition that the team will NOT cover the travel costs. This to done to protect the finances of a team, and avoid complaints that could arise if some teams can cover the travel costs and others cannot.
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I'm not sure this is correct but the NASL offered a 2000 USD travel and accomodation stipend to every Korean Player in the NASL to cover them coming to America and playing in the grand finals over the weekend. The Korean teams refused this offered and essentially demanded a blank cheque in that the NASL would reimburse them for whatever costs they incur while traveling.
Not to be offensive but from my knowledge of business thats basically being a prima donna. You can't expect the organisers of a company to pay for all of your players expenses over an entire weekend of international travel without having a clear outline of what those expenses will be.
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On August 12 2011 12:06 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:03 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. How is this any different than players who don't win money at other tournaments? Look at EG at MLG Anaheim. They didn't have one player win any money. Yet they still paid how much money to go to MLG. Look at TL. Huk is the only player who won money ($500). That didn't cover his cost to fly over, but you don't hear TL bitching about it. Not to mention every other player of theirs that didn't make any money. You are never guaranteed to walk away from a tournament with winnings. Thats why teams use things like ROI to justify sending their players to these tournaments. Teams realize that by going to these events they gain fans, exposure, notariety, and so on. Because most korean teams have little sponsors and could not afford to fly their players around at their leisure. Only a handful of koreans gain enough money to spend for themselves. Well then the Korean teams need to get those sponsors. Thats my point. We have foreign teams sending their players all over the world and more players walk away with nothing than the ones who win anything. Quite frankly even if NASL covers the travel cost and gets rid of the deposit, Korean teams CANNOT rely on tournaments paying for a handful of their players to play in them. Korean teams shouldn't be relying on NASL to pay for everything. If they were, then they should not have attempted to qualify or accepted the positions. Easier said than done. SC2 in Korea is stuck in a loop because they need to spend money to make money. Well then they need to either spend the money for their players to go to NASL or don't allow their players to qualify and then pull them out of the tournament when its already started (which is the worst thing about this).
I think they were caught off guard by how many of their players qualified and the cost added up. This could be the reason why they backed up on short notice.
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On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw.
So why'd they originally sign a contract to begin with, under inferior terms, only to pull out AFTER the qualifications, threatening the very structure of season 2? This is grossly unprofessional.
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On August 12 2011 11:51 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:49 firalol wrote:
That's fine, they can stay in Korea and fight over 300$ or w/e it is for code a. I wouldn't be surprised to see more Koreans jump ship to teams that will actually pay for them to go to events. true this sometimes Korean decisions mystify me.
Really? After what EG did with TSL_Puma at the last grand finals I am not even the least bit surprised.
It is just not a good financial risk to take for the korean teams.
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On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw.
That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going.
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On August 12 2011 12:08 Saraf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:03 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. How is this any different than players who don't win money at other tournaments? Look at EG at MLG Anaheim. They didn't have one player win any money. Yet they still paid how much money to go to MLG. Look at TL. Huk is the only player who won money ($500). That didn't cover his cost to fly over, but you don't hear TL bitching about it. Not to mention every other player of theirs that didn't make any money. You are never guaranteed to walk away from a tournament with winnings. Thats why teams use things like ROI to justify sending their players to these tournaments. Teams realize that by going to these events they gain fans, exposure, notariety, and so on. Because most korean teams have little sponsors and could not afford to fly their players around at their leisure. Only a handful of koreans gain enough money to spend for themselves. Well then the Korean teams need to get those sponsors. Thats my point. We have foreign teams sending their players all over the world and more players walk away with nothing than the ones who win anything. Quite frankly even if NASL covers the travel cost and gets rid of the deposit, Korean teams CANNOT rely on tournaments paying for a handful of their players to play in them. Korean teams shouldn't be relying on NASL to pay for everything. If they were, then they should not have attempted to qualify or accepted the positions. Easier said than done. SC2 in Korea is stuck in a loop because they need to spend money to make money. That's not just SC2, though, that's business. You have to spend money to make money.
Except that SC2 is more fragile and being in the red means losing your future (as a pro-gamer).
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On August 12 2011 12:11 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort.
they have to play games at the shittiest times and deal with latency. both sen and a bunch of koreans expressed how the times were very unaccommodating. that being said, they should've notified NASL of this earlier and made the decision to withdraw instead of participating in qualifiers which now seems kind of stupid.
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On August 12 2011 12:12 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:51 Vei wrote:On August 12 2011 11:49 firalol wrote:
That's fine, they can stay in Korea and fight over 300$ or w/e it is for code a. I wouldn't be surprised to see more Koreans jump ship to teams that will actually pay for them to go to events. true this sometimes Korean decisions mystify me. Really? After what EG did with TSL_Puma at the last grand finals I am not even the least bit surprised. It is just not a good financial risk to take for the korean teams.
So the koreans should punish the NASL, an entity independent of EG, for something a foreign team did to 1 korean team? Really?
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I dunno. It may not be a guaranteed profit for the teams, but they need to play of their sport will just die away. I'm glad that at least some players will still be there. Frankly, I tend to always root for foreigners anyway.
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On August 12 2011 12:14 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:08 Saraf wrote:On August 12 2011 12:03 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. How is this any different than players who don't win money at other tournaments? Look at EG at MLG Anaheim. They didn't have one player win any money. Yet they still paid how much money to go to MLG. Look at TL. Huk is the only player who won money ($500). That didn't cover his cost to fly over, but you don't hear TL bitching about it. Not to mention every other player of theirs that didn't make any money. You are never guaranteed to walk away from a tournament with winnings. Thats why teams use things like ROI to justify sending their players to these tournaments. Teams realize that by going to these events they gain fans, exposure, notariety, and so on. Because most korean teams have little sponsors and could not afford to fly their players around at their leisure. Only a handful of koreans gain enough money to spend for themselves. Well then the Korean teams need to get those sponsors. Thats my point. We have foreign teams sending their players all over the world and more players walk away with nothing than the ones who win anything. Quite frankly even if NASL covers the travel cost and gets rid of the deposit, Korean teams CANNOT rely on tournaments paying for a handful of their players to play in them. Korean teams shouldn't be relying on NASL to pay for everything. If they were, then they should not have attempted to qualify or accepted the positions. Easier said than done. SC2 in Korea is stuck in a loop because they need to spend money to make money. That's not just SC2, though, that's business. You have to spend money to make money. Except that SC2 is more fragile and being in the red means losing your future (as a pro-gamer).
They don't get in the red though.
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Sorry, didnt read the whole thread since 66 pages are a bit too much. But the op statement proves that korea needs a wealthy sponsorship which they are still lacking of (so it seems)
1 match per week is not 9 weeks work as stated before, since the players are already pro (or they aren't in korea)
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On August 12 2011 12:12 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:51 Vei wrote:On August 12 2011 11:49 firalol wrote:
That's fine, they can stay in Korea and fight over 300$ or w/e it is for code a. I wouldn't be surprised to see more Koreans jump ship to teams that will actually pay for them to go to events. true this sometimes Korean decisions mystify me. Really? After what EG did with TSL_Puma at the last grand finals I am not even the least bit surprised. It is just not a good financial risk to take for the korean teams.
Yeah, but NASL != EG. Blaming NASL for it would be silly.
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On August 12 2011 12:14 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort. they have to play games at the shittiest times and deal with latency. both sen and a bunch of koreans expressed how the times were very unaccommodating. that being said, they should've notified NASL of this earlier and made the decision to withdraw instead of participating in qualifiers which now seems kind of stupid.
<--- that is the world's smallest violin playing a sad sad song for the koreans who have been provided a free opportunity to make thousands of dollars. its a NA tournament; you have to deal with NA time zones.
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i'm not really a fan of the long tournament structure of NASL, no offense
i think it is 9 or 10 weeks of games,
on top of the actual grand finals in america, so all in all it is a gigantic time investment.
keep in mind that teams are still trying to find sponsors and most players do not receive salaries whatsoever
thinking from the player's perspective,
any participation in local tournaments gsl and gtsl is extremely important,
on top of MLG, dreamhack, blizzcon, and any other major tournaments in korea to come up
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this really sucks for nasl and for fans, i personally won't be watching this season. i feel bad for the people who bought an hd pass.
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On August 12 2011 12:09 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. They knew all the prize money and everything before qualifying. They shouldn't have expected things to change and let their players qualify.
I agree. Taking a stand right now looks bad for the Korean teams and puts the NASL in a bad position. But their objections are still valid.
its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort.
Not sure what you mean. Shouldn't placing top 16 be worth something? If NASL ends up covering travel expenses I'm sure they'd do it for everyone in the top 16.
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EPT
