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On August 12 2011 11:57 Teriyaki-Boy wrote:
GSL=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
MLG=Real Tournament/True Cometition/E-Sport
DH=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
IEM=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
NASL=ill try to watch it and support it even though i know what am watching isn't really that great.
stupidest thing i have seen in this thread so far; and you have lots of competition.
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On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat.
Being confident that you are the best player does not mean you will win every time. Look at MC. In my opinion, the Koreans want insurance in case they underperform.
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Right now i don't like the Korean Comittee
But i still like Mr.Chae!
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Awwh that sucks. 
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It's not exactly bad thing in its entirety even though having Koreans in the NASL would, without a doubt, raise the level of competition by a ton. Now we just need to hope that out there somewhere is some aspiring NA player who would work his ass off for that prize money.
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On August 12 2011 11:57 Teriyaki-Boy wrote:
GSL=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
MLG=Real Tournament/True Cometition/E-Sport
DH=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
IEM=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
NASL=ill try to watch it and support it even though i know what am watching isn't really that great.
The Blizzard Invitationals should be really exciting as well.
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This korean commitee sc2con is a joke. Korean teams should be able to choose for themselfs and not have kespa 2.0 running there lives and telling them what they can and cant do. Big blow to nasl and even worse blow to the koreans image which now makes them look like greedy evil people. I mean really 2k guarenteed if you make it there and thats not enough?.
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NASL ratings are going to plummet if koreans dont play. That's a huge blow to NASL. Damn, I really wanted to see MC.
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On August 12 2011 11:58 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. Being confident that you are the best player does not mean you will win every time. Look at MC. In my opinion, the Koreans want insurance in case they underperform.
Thats just ridiculous to ask of the tournament organizers. Fact is that Korean teams need to do more to get sponsors and money. Players will not be happy just competing in Code A and S. Especially as more foreigners come over to Korea and get seeded right into Code A and S.
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On August 12 2011 11:57 Teriyaki-Boy wrote:
GSL=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
MLG=Real Tournament/True Cometition/E-Sport
DH=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
IEM=Real Tournament/True Competition/E-Sport
NASL=ill try to watch it and support it even though i know what am watching isn't really that great.
This is exactly how I feel.
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While I can certainly understand the choice (not saying I agree, just that I understand) I cannot understand the attitude behind it, the way that this was handled was anything but professional.
Although, we do not have both sides of the story at this point so making a full and accurate judgement of the situation is going to be rather difficult.
Having said that, if what NASL is trying to say here is true then the SC2Con has gone mad. Introducing something of this magnitude at the last moment was not only unfair but unwise, if they wanted their demands to be met they should've put forward the idea of having their transportation paid for sooner, had NASL more time they may have been able to make it happen.
In addition to that, they were offered 2000$ to assist in getting people over there, can't their teams afford to throw a little money at the problem? Like seriously? NASL offers the opportunity to play in their tournament and what they get is all this attitude about how the NASL is supposed to pay for their travel. What the fuck makes them so special that they deserve to have all their flights paid for and not say, someone like MorroW or SEn?
NASL, good luck and keep on keeping on.
Koreans, I love you all as players and I hope to see more and more of your games, this has not affected my being a fan of any players, it's just irritating to me see something like this happen when it really did not need to at all. SC2Con...wtf?
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I wouldve gave them more to be honest. The amount that NASL will lose in terms of $$ is far greater than the amount they wouldve gave.
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On August 12 2011 11:58 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. Being confident that you are the best player does not mean you will win every time. Look at MC. In my opinion, the Koreans want insurance in case they underperform.
But players make most of their money through their teams (/lessons/streaming), not prizes; wanting to have your way paid *and* be guaranteed money is ridiculous.
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On August 12 2011 11:54 Dr.Sin wrote:
This is completely unreasonable by the Korean teams. With this amount of funding by the NASL, the Koreans would pay very little to send their players abroad, certainly less than 1000$/head (if anything at all). I have difficulty believing the teams are THAT broke. This doesn't smell right.
I agree, it feels like there had to be something additional to this that was going on, this just doesn't make any sense, NASL was more than generous to try to get them to agree to a deal. I'm more disappointed than anything, was really looking forward to this season and all the good Koreans players involved. Will still be a few at least.
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[QUOTE]On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for
possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip.
A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again?
To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes.
If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat.[/QUOTE]
I think this is rediculous - being a professional means your doing it as a job, meaning you are playing Starcraft 2 for your income. Just as any other job, if the pay isn't right, you may not do it, regardless of how passionate you are. Its not a hobby for these guys, its a job. You come across as the "spoiled brat" telling these professionals to stop thinking about the $.
You are also misinterpreting the terms of what is going on. Participating in the tournament doesn't mean automatically going to the finals - its 10 weeks of preparing for games, and takes a lot of time, and there is a large risk you don't even make the finals. So to take on that risk you need to be compensated properly. We are obviously not in the position to exactly understand the compensation (competing in Code A gets you on TV, gets you well known in Korea, a lot of stuff outside of the prize money even if you lose, so don't act like the only form of compensation is just the prize money).
The Korean group said "this is the minimum compensation that will make it worth it for us to join your tournament". NASL, while giving concessions, did not agree to the Korean's terms. Acting like the NASL giving concessions (while not agreeing to the propsed terms) means the NASL is being the "good guy" is misinterpreting the negotiation. The Korean's laid out their terms, the NASL rejected them. Thats what happened. The NASL made side concessions, but they still rejected the Korean's terms, so don't put them in this "holy" light.
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On August 12 2011 11:40 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:26 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 11:17 mcc wrote:On August 12 2011 11:05 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 10:50 esotericc wrote:On August 12 2011 10:47 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 10:39 esotericc wrote:
As more time goes on I am getting more and more sick of the korean scenes overall attitude. Could just be a vocal minority but they sure do believe their proverbial crap don't stink.
Considering the foreign scene is much larger than korea in regards to SC2 I feel we owe them nothing at all and they should jump at a chance to give themselves a stronger foot hold in the foreign scene. Foreign scene isn't larger than Korean scene. Strength of a scene is measured by quality and skill of players because that is the only real long-term value. Everything else (tournaments, prize money etc) is just temporary, it's basically an inflated bubble. This very thread proves that best. Korean scene in SC2 did a LOT for the foreign scene. They're basically offering free entry in the highest level professional competition in the world, something that western Brood War progamers (who couldn't even manage to earn a progaming LICENCE, let alone qualify for anything significant) would have killed for back in the day. We owe them quite a bit actually. I understand your point of view and appreciate where you are coming from but in my opinion strength of scene comes with the money being invested into the players and events. You can have as many amazing players in korea that you want but if they only have 1 big competition, no upcoming events other than that one and they refuse to be part of the rest of the worlds events then their scene won't grow. Just because we enjoy watching them doesn't mean they are going to be picking up sponsors outside of korea if they refuse to leave. Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  From everything I've seen by following Korean BW and keeping an eye on some e-sport attempts in the west, I have to say that right now I'm nearly convinced that you can't build e-sports with money. Money, show and sponsorships can come into it when you already have an intense level of competition, passion and following and when you have players demonstrating skill that the audience can really appreciate. Speaking of sponsors, while I can agree with your statement, have you also considered that without interest and without a sufficiently high level of competition, western sponsors may soon no longer be interested in western tournaments either? Foreign scene does not justify $20k+ prize pool tournaments in the long run. On the other hand, whether SC2 grows in Korea is mostly up to Korea. They're pretty much an e-sport country (as much as a country can be), so if the game is pushed through the right channels there's plenty of sponsorship money to go around within Korea. It's not the lack of western sponsors that slowed down the growth of SC2 in Korea, it was mostly the internal factors (and Blizzard). Nope. Prize pools are determined by viewership or rather specifically by sponsors calculating if sponsorship will pay itself. So it is purely determined by size and demographics of viewership. The "Foreign scene does not justify $20k+ prize pool tournaments in the long run." is therefore quite strange statement. In what way does it not justify the prize pool ? That's one part of it - it won't attract the viewers. Take a look at IPL stream to the right, it's 12k viewers for probably the most exciting set of matches so far this season (featuring Ret, Thorzain, Idra and WhiteRa) Second and bigger part of the point is that you can organize a $15k tournament and a $100k tournament, and both tournaments will attract the same quality of players (basically most top foreign players out of Korea) and the same number of viewers. So why would you waste $85k that you don't need to? Sure you could argue that it's about sustaining the e-sport in the long run, but western sponsors aren't here for the long run. They don't actually own Starcraft teams, TV stations and the whole infrastructure like in Korea, they don't care if 5 years from now it dies out (they'll just find something else that's popular to sponsor). Yes, you can organize two tournaments one with 15k and one with 100k, but there are other competing tournaments and as it already happens in foreign scene better players already have to choose between them, do you think they will choose your 15k tournament if competition offers 50k one ? No , you will get lesser players. As for if it sustainable, who knows.
As long as the tournaments do not overlap (and the schedule will never be that tight), players will just go to both. In which case the ones who offer $50k will feel silly.
Even now, MLG events seem to be most popular for both the players and viewers even though they have the smallest prize pool of all western live events.
On August 12 2011 11:40 mcc wrote:
Now I would love to see the evidence for the fact that skill is the main factor in long term, sizeable, sustainable scene. My guess would be the other way around as only long term scene can produce higher skill levels due to fierce competition over long period of time. The actual reason for sustainability probably would be popularity and I highly doubt fangirls of BW players in Korea actually care about absolute value of skill. Relative skill compared to direct competition is what matters.
Brood War teams were still scraping for money before the big corporations really took over, while at the same time they had fully running team houses and put in the insane amount of time into the game.
As an example of skill at the time, 4U with Boxer in his prime was struggling financially (and had players paying for expenses out of their own pockets) before SK Telecom moved in in 2004. The scene was very much thriving with talent and following before it became a real corporate sport it is today.
There's absolutely a notion of absolute skill, and most fans of BW in Korea can recognize feats that are incredibly difficult for a "normal" person to do, and thus give it the appreciation it deserves (Boxer's early drop micro, the famous Jangbi's storms, Bisu's multitasking etc). Why would you admire people playing video games otherwise? There has to be a stunning display of skill to actually gain the initial mass following and start things off.
Boxer didn't become what he is just because he was winning a lot and beat his competition, but because he was showing something that would literally blow your mind even if you only knew the most basic things about rts genre.
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well if you guys think Koreans take away Americans' price money then NO KOREANS SHOULD EVER COME TO AMERICA. (thats including Puma and other Koreans players joining foreign team)
if you would like more competitive and entertaining show, why not bring Koreans at all cost?
why is this difficult... i mean I personally want to have more fun, then why not risk it and pay them more money to come to America? if NASL is short on money... then they should never have even asked Koreans to come to US in first place, no? if im wrong on this pls explain y in detail
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On August 12 2011 11:50 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:47 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On August 12 2011 11:31 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. How is this any different than players who don't win money at other tournaments? Look at EG at MLG Anaheim. They didn't have one player win any money. Yet they still paid how much money to go to MLG. Look at TL. Huk is the only player who won money ($500). That didn't cover his cost to fly over, but you don't hear TL bitching about it. Not to mention every other player of theirs that didn't make any money. You are never guaranteed to walk away from a tournament with winnings. Thats why teams use things like ROI to justify sending their players to these tournaments. Teams realize that by going to these events they gain fans, exposure, notariety, and so on. Because most korean teams have little sponsors and could not afford to fly their players around at their leisure. Only a handful of koreans gain enough money to spend for themselves. Well then the Korean teams need to get those sponsors. Thats my point. We have foreign teams sending their players all over the world and more players walk away with nothing than the ones who win anything. Quite frankly even if NASL covers the travel cost and gets rid of the deposit, Korean teams CANNOT rely on tournaments paying for a handful of their players to play in them. Korean teams shouldn't be relying on NASL to pay for everything. If they were, then they should not have attempted to qualify or accepted the positions.
Easier said than done. SC2 in Korea is stuck in a loop because they need to spend money to make money.
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So what is this SC2con anyway? Is this the response to the whole PuMa fiasco? I seem to have missed something. The way they handled this was grossly unprofessional, the fact they'd turn down this generous an offer just makes me wonder if they were approaching this in good faith. They not only backed out of their contracts, they shrugged off a quadrupling of the incentive.
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EPT
