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Well thats quite dissapointing for sc2 in general :/ So what happens 2 the spots now open?
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On August 12 2011 12:28 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:25 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:16 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:14 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort. they have to play games at the shittiest times and deal with latency. both sen and a bunch of koreans expressed how the times were very unaccommodating. that being said, they should've notified NASL of this earlier and made the decision to withdraw instead of participating in qualifiers which now seems kind of stupid. <--- that is the world's smallest violin playing a sad sad song for the koreans who have been provided a free opportunity to make thousands of dollars. its a NA tournament; you have to deal with NA time zones. it's not technically "free". it's an investment in the minimum of time and effort to participate and practice for these games at the reward of potentially nothing because you fall out the first round and use the $1000 prize to cover you travel expenses back to Korea. clearly the koreans didn't want to deal with all these things (bad times, latency, expenses, etc) so they withdrew from the competition. You're overlooking the benefit these players and teams get by being streamed each week.
benefits from getting streamed? you mean publicity? recognition from the community? this stuff is great but it's only helpful if they get sponsors because of it which I don't think they did (in S1) because if it was really that beneficial, they wouldn't be withdrawing before the start of S2.
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Yeah Korea is far away from pretty much everywhere and the cost to fly is expensive. So I'm not surprised they pulled out - they probably don't have the upfront cash. They did do this late though, so bad planning there. Even if they went on a young person's ticket, that would cost US$1250. A weak US Dollar obviously helps, but imagine if you were MC and your team wanted to fly you once a month out the NASL. Even 2k per player wouldn't be enough, and that doesn't even include expenses like lodging and food. The only reasonable thing to do would be to pull out. I'm not saying that they should've, but NASL and the teams should've considered this already. Aren't the managers supposed to the number crunching first? That's why FXO has a wonderful model - think of it as a business subsidiary: FXOKorea and FXO.
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On August 12 2011 12:32 Disquiet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:29 Crushgroove wrote:
This is like KeSPA shenanigans all over again... only the players NOT bound to SC2Con decisions are able to play in this great tournament and take advantage of the 2k? Must be nice to NOT be a part of that situation.
I don't see them balking at coming to MLG, despite the fact that they DON'T get the 2k and they have a lower statistical likelihood of winning....
This is baffling, and angering as well. If I were a player contractually bound to the decisions of the SC2Con, I'd be pissed, and I'd be re-evaluating the career decisions that led me to that circumstance. Bet Puma feels like a boss right now. To be honest the sc2con seems like a bit of a joke right now. When TSL didn't like their ruling they simply ignored it. They were expelled but as a far as I can tell there were no real consequences.
we don't personally & entirely know what sc2con is in charge of
also, there was much more to the story. you could see tsl, or tsl's coach simply taking a more honorable approach to avoiding conflict by accepting the ban---even though there were more reasons and unfounded evidence
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252847
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I'm surprised a 1K stipend with guaranteed 1K winnings isn't enough to send the players.
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People, think about it. Why are the teams demanding that NASL cover all the travel expenses?
The issue is almost certainly NOT about the return-on-investment, or the organization of the tournament. These people are gamers at heart. They want to play. But not all teams are on an equal financial footing.
Some teams can afford to send their players overseas. Some can't, and they want to protect teams. Some teams would allow their players to use prize money to cover additional expenses. Some teams will protect their players and don't want them to do that. The lowest common denominator here is to protect both TEAMS and PLAYERS. If NASL covers all the travel costs, then there is no point of contention. Since that didn't work out, withdrawal was necessary.
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United States527 Posts
Wow.... this... really sucks :[
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Really bold move by them, SCII is just starting and everyone should put all they have to keep the grow of it.
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NASL has done all that they could to accommodate the Koreans, $2000 is a lot and no foreign teams get this regardless of the amount of sponsorships they have and they send their players all over the place often $5000 plus for a player and the koreans wont take $2000 stipend for 1 trip and the finals are 3 days long. (not much time) These players i feel are held in too high regard and they complain about all the effort put in for the possibility of no payout? this is the nature of Esports atm and for the past so many years, there isn't a real opportunity for a regular income unless you are on a big team like EG, so if you don't put in the effort to join as many tournaments as you can you wont win much money. You don't go to work you don't get paid and if you complain that you joined a profession which is mostly traveling and arent prepared to then i guess you shouldnt play because you probably won't win GSL lol
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It's really not NASL's fault I know, but without Koreans it really makes the league less entertaining for me, I will watch but no HD pass this season. Hopefully Korea's sc2 scene picks up and they can get more sponsors.
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On August 12 2011 12:13 Saraf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:10 Brian333 wrote:
I don't know how there are people that still don't get it.
NASL offers $1000 travel stipend and a $1000 minimum prize for top 16. The plane ticket and hotel costs alone are $2000+ meaning that they have to pay for some travel expenses themselves.
Koreans don't see it as a viable deal because they don't view months of pool play consisting of awkwardly scheduled games as a worthy investment of their time when you can actually lose your own money after fighting to a top 16 out of a sizable player pool and using another week of your time to travel abroad.
NASL refuses to / can't offer a larger travel stipend.
Compromise is not reached and Koreans withdraw. That is factually inaccurate. Plane ticket and hotel+local transportation for S1 were $1650 per player (posted by the NASL.tv account), and I feel like the OP ought to be edited to note that $2000 in guaranteed money covers all costs associated with going.
Apparently, you missed my earlier post. You know why the OP should not do that? Because it's deceptively disingenuous and biased to try and tack that price onto the trip. The cost of plane tickets swings wildly depending on when you book it and how long in advance you book it. If I were to try and jump on a plane on Monday from Incheon International Airport to LAX, it would cost me nearly $3500 before taxes for a non-refundable multiple stop round-trip economy class ticket. Go check for yourself on the United Airlines website.
Realistically speaking, booking about a month in advance during off-season will drop that price to $1200 before taxes. Still more than their travel stipend. And, that's assuming that the player can even book his flight a month in advance as if there is some guarantee that he will still be going a month later (there is none). Refundable tickets are significantly more expensive and I do not know the policies on canceling reservations beyond the 24-hour cut off but I have a suspicion it's not cheap. Booking a week in advance brings it up to $1600 before taxes.
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tbh this is ridiculous, the koreans want to reap the benefits of a NASL and NA scene but yet wont pony up to their obligations. Idra is expected to pay his way to Dreamhack, god forbid Dreamhack pay his way for him.
lets just practice hard and show the koreans we can be better then them eh
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Damn this sucks so much for everyone..
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On August 12 2011 12:36 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:28 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 12:25 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:16 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:14 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 longdivision wrote:On August 12 2011 11:52 Elefanto wrote:On August 12 2011 11:47 longdivision wrote:
I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for the Korean teams and players to take. Consider this: 9-16th place Korean finishers end up earning no money after travel expenses, give up a extra week of their time and suffer jet lag. It's literally better to finish in the bottom 34 than to place 9-16th for them. What's that for an attitude. If you're a professional player, you have to have the mindset that you're the absolute best, and if you participate in a tournament, you have to be sure to win it. You need that confidence. If you have the opportunity to win 40-50k dollars, with your expenses being paid, in exchange for possible jetlag and "a week of their time it seems outright dumb to let that chance slip. A week of their time, meaning practice time. Why do they practice again? To become the best, for honor, and for the possibility to win huge prizes. If you don't want to sacrifice as much to get that chance, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to call yourself a professional in my opinion. Then you're a spoiled brat. They already put in 9 weeks of effort. It's not unreasonable to expect some reward if you finish in the top 16 and have to take a week of your time and fly around the world. If NASL can't make the playoff profitable for half their players, they should just cut to a top 8. its unreasonable for them to expect more than the other players who have also dedicated the 9 weeks of effort. they have to play games at the shittiest times and deal with latency. both sen and a bunch of koreans expressed how the times were very unaccommodating. that being said, they should've notified NASL of this earlier and made the decision to withdraw instead of participating in qualifiers which now seems kind of stupid. <--- that is the world's smallest violin playing a sad sad song for the koreans who have been provided a free opportunity to make thousands of dollars. its a NA tournament; you have to deal with NA time zones. it's not technically "free". it's an investment in the minimum of time and effort to participate and practice for these games at the reward of potentially nothing because you fall out the first round and use the $1000 prize to cover you travel expenses back to Korea. clearly the koreans didn't want to deal with all these things (bad times, latency, expenses, etc) so they withdrew from the competition. You're overlooking the benefit these players and teams get by being streamed each week. benefits from getting streamed? you mean publicity? recognition from the community? this stuff is great but it's only helpful if they get sponsors because of it which I don't think they did (in S1) because if it was really that beneficial, they wouldn't be withdrawing before the start of S2.
Its all a part of the ROI. More exposure is only a good thing. Its a great cost benefit of playing games at 2am and spending some time preparing for them.
If you are a sponsor are you more attracted to the team that has players in GSL or the team that has players in GSL and NASL? The one with players in both as there is more exposure.
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On August 12 2011 12:33 Rylaji wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:23 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 12:11 IAmNeos wrote:
After the shitty first season of NASL, I wouldn't blame them for not playing. Can people read and stop posting stuff like this? Obviously if the issue was with NASL and the quality of playing at NASL, then INDIVIDUAL players can back out on their own will. Instead, we have a committee that has decided to ban ALL Korean players from participating (a union-type boycott), regardless of whether they may personally want to play in NASL or not. The reason why they did this is because they asked the NASL for certain monetary concessions that NASL did not agree to. NASL responded with their own offer that the committe didn't agree to, and here we are.
This has NOTHING to do with how players feel about NASL.
In fact, I wish we could hear from some of the affected players how they feel about this decision because I can't imagine too many are happy to be banned from playing in the NASL.
Did they actually get banned tho? I thought it was more of "Noone can afford it"
They had no choice in the matter. The decision was made by the committee, not the players.
And while some may have trouble affording it, I think most of them can, which means that's not the sole issue here.
This issue resides between the committee and the NASL...and right now it's unclear what the committee is actually trying to achieve. Kill NASL? Kill Western E-sports? Get business class plane tickets and 5 star hotels? Idk. We'll see.
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In my mind the reason this happened is partially because they look down upon the foreign scene a little bit. A little condescension might be deserved since the foreign scene is behind but if NA and EU players (overall, not just a small handful of players) get a little more hardcore with their practising and perform better as a result etc, the Koreans will respect the scene more and feel an actual need to come here for more than just money. Their only motivation atm is probably just money so they base their decisions around that only. I wouldn't imagine MLG having the same trouble because of that potential Code S spot. I could be completely off base with this though
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Take away the team requirement to play and make it an individual event. It is clear to me that some of the requirements posed by the league in order to foster a more dramatic environment simply do not work. I think NASL needs to take a break and brainstorm for a while. The initial league play was very dry to me and without good story lines.
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Can you imagine if this happened to MLG next? Think about it, sc2con does have the upper hand here.
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On August 12 2011 12:37 dookudooku wrote:
People, think about it. Why are the teams demanding that NASL cover all the travel expenses?
The issue is almost certainly NOT about the return-on-investment, or the organization of the tournament. These people are gamers at heart. They want to play. But not all teams are on an equal financial footing.
Some teams can afford to send their players overseas. Some can't, and they want to protect teams. Some teams would allow their players to use prize money to cover additional expenses. Some teams will protect their players and don't want them to do that. The lowest common denominator here is to protect both TEAMS and PLAYERS. If NASL covers all the travel costs, then there is no point of contention. Since that didn't work out, withdrawal was necessary.
Its ridiculous to ask NASL to cover it.
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This is sad news 
<3 NASL and boo SC2Con for making bad decisions (bad for fans).
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EPT
