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On August 12 2011 08:34 NASL.tv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:31 masterbreti wrote:
tbh good for the Koreans for sticking to their guns.
Has anyone here auctally tried to caculate the cost of a 1 week trip to cali from seoul and back. its damn expensive. Being almost 3k with hotel and airfare and such. For the chance at $500, which would still lose them $500 if NASL paid 2k.
I can understand why the teams would do this tbh. They are not in a healthy state in Korea and of course they would want people to pay, since they can't temselves. I can answer this question. We paid for Korean players to come to NASL Season 1. We bought tickets for MC, PuMa, Zenio, and Squirtle. We paid $1,192 for each ticket. The hotel cost was $353 for the entire event. Travel cost was about $80 per person (shuttle service to and from). This averages out about $1650, factoring in meals ($50 per day even) ... giving each player $2,000 should cover that.
If this is true, I say fuck them.
But I think the reak reason for this is the Puma-EG fallout at NASL.
East Asians have sense for being a collective. The collective is way more important than the individual. Thus if you go against one of them you will meet a wall of silence when you try to do business with others, supposed neutrals.
This in mind, the Koreans may hold a grudge against NASL and EG and this fallout is just a continuation, a kind of pay back of what happened at the finals. Sure, NASL could not do anything against it, but since their name was involved, they have to suffer from it.
I expect something directed against EG too. Maybe not now, but in moth or even years to come. East Asians have long memories when it comes to holding a grudge.
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On August 12 2011 17:10 danteafk wrote:they should come down from their high steed 
maybe NASL should pay up first?
I hear they haven't paid back neither the deposit from season1 nor the prize money.
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On August 12 2011 17:04 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:02 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 16:59 youngminii wrote:
When will you organisations learn to keep your fucking opinions to yourself and respect other people's decisions?
I think in this case, NASL is obligated to release an official statement. Not to mention, the reason why they released it is because Milkies Twittered it, which caused threads to pop out and Liquid said they would get a official answer from NASL, which then NASL gave. I honestly cannot comprehend some people. If NASL did not make this announcement (which honestly is not worded in any incendiary way), people would rip them to shreds about how they need to be more transparent and how they're hiding it on purpose. Yet when they do release it, it's "WHY DID THEY SAY THIS?" Good job misinterpreting. Their statement is filled with bias and they're trying to shift all the blame to the Koreans. A proper official statement has no bias. All it should state are the facts. None of this wishy washy blame game shenanigans.
How are they trying to shift all the blame to the Koreans. How is it misrepresented? Are you in Sc2Con? Then how do you know? Where is this blame you are referring to?
Honestly, all the statement says is what the issue was, what they tried to do to fix it, and that they wished things turned out differently...a perfect 3 piece PR statement.
Anyone who sees anything else is projecting their own thoughts and feelings into it.
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On August 12 2011 17:06 Hemula wrote:
Catz must be happy as fuck. :DDD
Of course! He's the favourite to win the whole thing now!
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On August 12 2011 17:08 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:55 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 16:45 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 16:43 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 16:41 dignitasNewmaN wrote:
From the information available they have been very forthcoming and tried to make things work for everyone. Obviously they cant pay for the travel of Koreans specifically without doing the exact same thing for everyone else flying in to the grand finals. Competition needs to be fair no matter where you are from and one group of players cant expect to get special treatment. Then just pay for everyone's travel expenses then. why don't Korean teams just pay for their travel? The example stated Obviously they cant pay for the travel of Koreans specifically without doing the exact same thing for everyone else flying in to the grand finals.. Observe the context of the statement before responding to posts. The point is that NASL can't afford to just pay for everyone's travel like Korean teams can't afford to pay their own travel.
No, that's not the point NewmaN raised.
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On August 12 2011 17:07 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:03 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 12 2011 16:57 LuciferSC wrote:On August 12 2011 16:53 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 12 2011 16:48 LuciferSC wrote:On August 12 2011 16:46 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 12 2011 16:36 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 16:27 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 13:16 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
I don´t get it then, if the whole paying for travelling expenses and hotel and food was less money than the 2k offered then why didn´t the NASL offered to pay their travel? Did I understand this post wrong? It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. In season 1 the travel stipend was 500 dollars and the prize money for qualifying for the finals was also 500 dollars. NASL bought the tickets for the korean players, removing the ticket price(plus hotel/food/travel) of ~1650 dollars from the combined stipend and their prize winnings. This means that if you lost out in the first round players received 0 dollars, and NASL lost 650 dollars(which only happened with zenio). With the increased stipend and redistributed prize pool in season 2 players would be guaranteed 350 dollars after travel, just for making it there, while in season 1 no money was guaranteed for the players they bought tickets for. In what world is 350<0? Please do some research, or at least learn simple math before posting nonsense. People before you have already pointed out that the part of their expenses being paid is wrong. But no, you can't count that as "having lost 650". The 500 dollars of prize money is just that: prize money, something that was already going to be paid. The players just found that the NASL wasn't worth all the crap for just that amount. And nowhere did I say 350< 0. Learn reading comprehension before you post nonsense. You just don't get it do you. The NASL never offered to pay for all the players out of their own pockets, that's why they have teams, to send them to tournaments. What NASL did do was offer a substantial amount of money and increase their lower end prize pool to make sure nobody lost money on this, if the koreans didn't find it worth their time they shouldn't have played in qualifiers. And you said that it was the NASL who is trying to pay less than they did before which is a blatant lie, so maybe it is you who needs some reading comprehension. Apparently Koreans did raise objection to NASL, and both sides are at fault if anything for not reaching a mutual acceptance before the qualifiers ended. Except that the koreans still played in the qualifiers, not issuing this ultimatum of theirs until they were over. Well then NASL should've either stopped the players from further participating in the qualifiers at that point (if SC2Con raised their objection after the qualifers got started) or meet their demand earlier on? Both parties are at fault for this mess. Ridiculous. Should novody ever sign a contract because somebody may break it? The only thing NASL is at fault for is not being billionaires so they could pay everybodys way. In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]. Can you please read NASL's own statement. There was no contract signed, and it's NASL that went ahead with season 2 without agreement reached. It's entirely their fault for the mess that has occured here. NASL had the choice of either meeting the demand or booting Korean players off of the qualifiers. They did neither.
First off by entering the qualifiers and participating they had already agreed to the terms, then they dropped the ultimatum, afterwards. NASL obviously thought they were going to work it out, so they continued on, even if they had stopped the qualifiers then the entire thing would have to be redone.
I also like how you start off with" both parties are at fault" and in 5 mins move on to" NASL is entirely at fault". Take your bias elsewhere.
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Let's hope SC2 wont be the new Brood War, and by that I mean that only koreans will be pros and all the fun tournaments to watch will be the korean ones. But this is definitely a step in the wrong direction.
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I'm pretty disappointed by this, especially after the comments made about foreigners being "too scared" to go to Korea to compete. I think NASL has been very generous with their offer, and I'm extremely disappointed by the council's decision and actions. It reminds me a lot of KeSPA shenanigans. It's a disappointment that we won't get to see them play, but maybe everyone now understands how prohibitive traveling cost really is.
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part of me is glad, hopefully some of our players will beat the remaining koreans!!! lol. But seriously they know the score when they sign up, they cant expect the NASL to keep changing boundaries just for them, NASL did already and I know scheduleing is difficult but a good time for Korea is not nescessailry a good time for Europe AND American casters. The same if for European time to Kroean time etc. That is the problem.
Wonder what announcement they will make regarding the spots left over? Who will replace, would love to see Desmuslim in there!!! While we will be missing top Koreans I think this league can still push forward and hopefully prommote both American and European players a alot more!!!! Better then a Korean top 8!!!!
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Wow, this really sucks for NASL. Seems like they were being more than fair. Don't know how I feel about Sc2Con...after this and the whole TSL fiasco they are not looking too great. They should leave the decision up to the individual teams.
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Russian Federation1849 Posts
On August 12 2011 17:12 Bart wrote:Of course! He's the favourite to win the whole thing now!
Catz hwaiting!
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On August 12 2011 17:07 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:04 ragealot wrote:
None of this would be a problem if people actually paid to support ESPORTs, 80k stream viewers is all well and good but if players can't even break even after qualifying for the final then we still have a long way to go. I paid for my MLG subscription (and sometimes GOMTV) because they respond to complaints with, "We're sorry and we're putting forth 110% effort to get the problem resolved by the next event." NASL responds to light criticism with, "You guys are just too demanding! When was the last time YOU hosted a $100,000 prize pool tournament?!"
Thats just such bull shit. NASL is always listening to the community and always taking their input to improve the product
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On August 12 2011 17:13 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:07 LuciferSC wrote:On August 12 2011 17:03 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 12 2011 16:57 LuciferSC wrote:On August 12 2011 16:53 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 12 2011 16:48 LuciferSC wrote:On August 12 2011 16:46 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 12 2011 16:36 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 16:27 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 12 2011 13:20 dabom88 wrote:
[quote]
It's not $2000, it's $1000. It's $1000 travel stipend. NASL is offering to them that they'll change their prize structure around so that $1000 prize is guaranteed for making it into the top 16 and asking the Koreans to pay out the rest of their expenses out of that guaranteed $1000. It's definitely NASL that's trying to pay less than they did last time. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. In season 1 the travel stipend was 500 dollars and the prize money for qualifying for the finals was also 500 dollars. NASL bought the tickets for the korean players, removing the ticket price(plus hotel/food/travel) of ~1650 dollars from the combined stipend and their prize winnings. This means that if you lost out in the first round players received 0 dollars, and NASL lost 650 dollars(which only happened with zenio). With the increased stipend and redistributed prize pool in season 2 players would be guaranteed 350 dollars after travel, just for making it there, while in season 1 no money was guaranteed for the players they bought tickets for. In what world is 350<0? Please do some research, or at least learn simple math before posting nonsense. People before you have already pointed out that the part of their expenses being paid is wrong. But no, you can't count that as "having lost 650". The 500 dollars of prize money is just that: prize money, something that was already going to be paid. The players just found that the NASL wasn't worth all the crap for just that amount. And nowhere did I say 350< 0. Learn reading comprehension before you post nonsense. You just don't get it do you. The NASL never offered to pay for all the players out of their own pockets, that's why they have teams, to send them to tournaments. What NASL did do was offer a substantial amount of money and increase their lower end prize pool to make sure nobody lost money on this, if the koreans didn't find it worth their time they shouldn't have played in qualifiers. And you said that it was the NASL who is trying to pay less than they did before which is a blatant lie, so maybe it is you who needs some reading comprehension. Apparently Koreans did raise objection to NASL, and both sides are at fault if anything for not reaching a mutual acceptance before the qualifiers ended. Except that the koreans still played in the qualifiers, not issuing this ultimatum of theirs until they were over. Well then NASL should've either stopped the players from further participating in the qualifiers at that point (if SC2Con raised their objection after the qualifers got started) or meet their demand earlier on? Both parties are at fault for this mess. Ridiculous. Should novody ever sign a contract because somebody may break it? The only thing NASL is at fault for is not being billionaires so they could pay everybodys way. In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]. Can you please read NASL's own statement. There was no contract signed, and it's NASL that went ahead with season 2 without agreement reached. It's entirely their fault for the mess that has occured here. NASL had the choice of either meeting the demand or booting Korean players off of the qualifiers. They did neither. First off by entering the qualifiers and participating they had already agreed to the terms, then they dropped the ultimatum, afterwards. NASL obviously thought they were going to work it out, so they continued on, even if they had stopped the qualifiers then the entire thing would have to be redone. I also like how you start off with" both parties are at fault" and in 5 mins move on to" NASL is entirely at fault". Take your bias elsewhere.
Well the Koreans can say the samething - by beginning the tournament despite their objections, NASL has already agreed to their demand.
Perhaps NASl can't be blamed for this mass in whole. But if anything, it is only rational to blame the organizers for a mistake in the logistics of an event, than to blame participant.
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On August 12 2011 17:08 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:06 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 17:02 kinray wrote:
When the Korean teams say that they are not happy how the tournament is run and that they will not participate in S2 if <insert the demands if Korean teams here> is not exactly done everyone is jumping the gun and blame them for having demands.
Can someone point me the difference between TL and Korean teams situation? And please not "they have a signed deal" because there is no information about something signed in OP.
Sure. TL didn't join qualifiers, taking up spots, didn't promise to be in the league, didn't proceed as if they were participating in the league, didn't plan to not be in the league yet refuse to say anything when the schedule and player lists were released, didn't plan to not be in the league but decide to abruptly call a boycott after the season begins. And there is no information that they didn't sign a deal, but if the season had already started, don't you think there was some kind of agreement involved? At the very least, a verbal agreement, which can be a binding contract? Just saying, I don't think NASL is dense enough to start the season with 1/3 of the players not competing. If you are to take a close reading of this paragraph.. (part of NASL's statement) "In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]. " It's fairly clear that the objection was brought up prior to the beginning of season 2. Koreans are not at fault here. NASL clearly ignored their demand and went ahead with season 2.
Yes. Which NASL responded to, instead of "clearly ignoring." Perhaps within that time frame, there was some understanding reached that caused NASL to continue? Idk, the OP doesn't explicitally state it, but it's implied in the wording.
Really, it's not a far-fetched idea that SC2Con purposefully waited until NASL started to make the demands yet again. It's a common business tactic that puts your negotiator in a tight situation and more likely to yield to your demands. It's a little sleazy, but not as bad as it sounds, and like I said, it's very common.
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On August 12 2011 17:08 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:06 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 17:02 kinray wrote:
When the Korean teams say that they are not happy how the tournament is run and that they will not participate in S2 if <insert the demands if Korean teams here> is not exactly done everyone is jumping the gun and blame them for having demands.
Can someone point me the difference between TL and Korean teams situation? And please not "they have a signed deal" because there is no information about something signed in OP.
Sure. TL didn't join qualifiers, taking up spots, didn't promise to be in the league, didn't proceed as if they were participating in the league, didn't plan to not be in the league yet refuse to say anything when the schedule and player lists were released, didn't plan to not be in the league but decide to abruptly call a boycott after the season begins. And there is no information that they didn't sign a deal, but if the season had already started, don't you think there was some kind of agreement involved? At the very least, a verbal agreement, which can be a binding contract? Just saying, I don't think NASL is dense enough to start the season with 1/3 of the players not competing. If you are to take a close reading of this paragraph.. (part of NASL's statement) "In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]. " It's fairly clear that the objection was brought up prior to the beginning of season 2. Koreans are not at fault here. NASL clearly ignored their demand and went ahead with season 2.
It says in preparation for Season 2. That all occurred after the qualifiers as they went on before the Grand Finals. Koreans are at fault here for signing up for a tournament that they couldn't follow through on. Regardless of signing a contract or not, they knew what the deal was before hand. And they still went on with it. After they qualified they said things needed to change.
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No Koreans? Sure, that's a bummer. However, I am certain it will be amazing to watch. Good commentating and an organized tournament is very entertaining either way. That's something I think they improved on a lot the last season, and something I think they will improve even more in this one.
And besides, we would still be watching some of the best players in the world.
I think that NASL should have some credit for trying to meet the demands and I believe that they deserve our support.
At least that's my humble opinion. 
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On August 12 2011 17:13 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:08 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 16:55 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 16:45 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 12 2011 16:43 dabom88 wrote:On August 12 2011 16:41 dignitasNewmaN wrote:
From the information available they have been very forthcoming and tried to make things work for everyone. Obviously they cant pay for the travel of Koreans specifically without doing the exact same thing for everyone else flying in to the grand finals. Competition needs to be fair no matter where you are from and one group of players cant expect to get special treatment. Then just pay for everyone's travel expenses then. why don't Korean teams just pay for their travel? The example stated Obviously they cant pay for the travel of Koreans specifically without doing the exact same thing for everyone else flying in to the grand finals.. Observe the context of the statement before responding to posts. The point is that NASL can't afford to just pay for everyone's travel like Korean teams can't afford to pay their own travel. No, that's not the point NewmaN raised.
I'm not making Newman's point, I'm making my own.
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On August 12 2011 17:15 SgtPepper wrote:
Wow, this really sucks for NASL. Seems like they were being more than fair. Don't know how I feel about Sc2Con...after this and the whole TSL fiasco they are not looking too great. They should leave the decision up to the individual teams.
SC2con is made up primarily of the Coaches and Captains of the individual teams. Their decision may not represent everyone on every team, but the individual team representatives were probably in unison on the decision.
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On August 12 2011 17:11 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 17:10 danteafk wrote:they should come down from their high steed maybe NASL should pay up first? I hear they haven't paid back neither the deposit from season1 nor the prize money.
I've heard they have 60 days to do so and still have a few weeks til that time is up.
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Can anyone give me a good answer/argument on why it's okay that this committee BANNED ALL Korean players from participating?
If it is as you say it is, that NASL was this and that, then why didn't this committee simply leave it into the hands of the managers and the players? Surely if NASL sucks as bad as people allege, then players won't return on their own will...especially if they can't afford it.
Why does this committee have to make an official ban on ALL players, including those that want to go, forcing players like MC to now look for a way around the ban?
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EPT
