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On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT.
Very true. People tend to forget that it's much, much harder to defend drops than execute them.
If you defend you have to ALWAYS expect them, be 100% focussed all the time to spot the drop when it comes.
If you execute it, you have to only focus at the exact time when you are dropping. The rest of the time you can focus on something else, like macro perfectly.
I'm not saying this is "imbalanced", but this is one of the many reasons why pro-toss-players are having a harder time. There are very few players out there like MC who can do this and STILL not screw up in other areas. This is, I think, why Blizz will give P a harassment-unit. Because then P can also test the reaction time and map awareness of the T.
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Protoss is by far the weakest race now. Will be interesting to see if meta game will change or if blizzard needs to buff protoss. I also think the huge imbalance in the TvP match-up is mostly down to EMP, it's just too powerful vs protoss.
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On August 08 2011 01:13 K_Dilkington wrote:
Protoss is by far the weakest race now. Will be interesting to see if meta game will change or if blizzard buffs protoss.
As everyone's been saying they just need a harassing unit that is actually viable all game just like Terran drops or Mutas. Both DTs and phoenix both get shut down by static defenses.
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Haha, so now Byun only got to Code A finals because everyone was bad? Seriously, try to think of a less ridiculous excuse. He beat both July and SangHo during his Code A run, and only barely lost the finals to Top. You can try to explain that with him just being naturally better at Terran, but this excuse is just idiotic.
On August 08 2011 00:53 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 00:50 Toadvine wrote:On August 07 2011 23:43 imareaver3 wrote:On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT. Were you calling P imba in June when the roles were reversed and P had an only a slightly lower win-rate against T than T has against P now? If this persists for more than a month or two, then such conclusions can be drawn. Right now, it could just be a brief metagame shift... Uh, according to the graph in the opening post, the only time Protoss was significantly favored over Terran in Korea, was in February, with a 58% win rate for P. Furthermore, KA was removed shortly afterwards, so I don't think Terran players would enjoy the implications of this fact. Meh, I prefer the international graph to the Korean one. Korean graph simply doesn't have enough games to really be valid, in my opinion.
International graph shows no period of Protoss dominance at all... So basically, you were talking out of your ass about that, weren't you?
On August 08 2011 00:56 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT. Protoss is the least played race, thus they will have the least up and comers. You cannot blame that on balance, or you could spin it to say that the most played race is only played because it is seen as the strongest/most overpowered. From what I have seen, a lot of people just don't like protoss as a race, it's not enjoyable to a lot of people regardless of how it plays at a competitive level.
Actually, Zerg is the least played race in KR Masters. Terran is by far the most played, with Protoss somewhere in between. On other servers, the race distribution in Masters is very even.
You know guys, sitting here, in this thread, and just posting to correct factual errors is kind of tedious. At least do some basic fact-checking before you make an argument. :/
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the issue is that protoss has nothing that can harrass that is destructable. baneling drops and hellion harrass (and even medivac drops to an extent) are all relatively very cheap and have lots of return in terms of harassment value. the dt and the phoenix are both 1-target fighters and are also both very expensive relative to their harassment value. the only unit that truly fits into this category would be the high templar, but that comes way late in the game and for quite a large sum.
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On August 07 2011 09:41 ZappaSC wrote:
Wow that looks crazy... what have the terrans learned since last month that i have completly missed? o.O
Blue flame hellions.
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On August 08 2011 01:21 JiYan wrote:
the issue is that protoss has nothing that can harrass that is destructable. baneling drops and hellion harrass (and even medivac drops to an extent) are all relatively very cheap and have lots of return in terms of harassment value. the dt and the phoenix are both 1-target fighters and are also both very expensive relative to their harassment value. the only unit that truly fits into this category would be the high templar, but that comes way late in the game and for quite a large sum.
This is very true. Protoss harass is either ineffective or just to expensive. I also think that there is less room for error with protoss, you don't have units that you can through away (think marines/zerglings), so every move you make has to be very well planned and executed perfectly at the top level. MC is the only protoss that can do this consistently.
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On August 08 2011 01:49 K_Dilkington wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 01:21 JiYan wrote:
the issue is that protoss has nothing that can harrass that is destructable. baneling drops and hellion harrass (and even medivac drops to an extent) are all relatively very cheap and have lots of return in terms of harassment value. the dt and the phoenix are both 1-target fighters and are also both very expensive relative to their harassment value. the only unit that truly fits into this category would be the high templar, but that comes way late in the game and for quite a large sum. This is very true. Protoss harass is either ineffective or just to expensive. I also think that there is less room for error with protoss, you don't have units that you can through away (think marines/zerglings), so every move you make has to be very well planned and executed perfectly at the top level. MC is the only protoss that can do this consistently.
I agree, there is too much to lose with an error with Protoss. Terran can easily throw sucide dropships >_> and zergs and just throw suicide banelings
DTs cost so much shit when its so easy to defend
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I would like to throw in there 2 recent facts about TvP:
MarineKing just won the CPL Invitational (a chinese LAN event) over SaSe by quickly all-inning 3 times in a row. First was a typical 1-1-1, second was a 1-1-1 after cancel of a reactored 2 rax, third was a 3 rax on tal'darim. It didn't look remotely close, of course. I'm okay to say that MKP is a much better player than SaSe and that he has always been a bit allinnish in the past, but just saying.
Tarson recently lost to Naniwa ( I know) in the Battle.net Europe Invitational. In the second set, he opted for good ol' 1-1-1 on Metalopolis (that's like the standard build on this map). Naniwa held it. By brillantly delaying the push. That, and the fact that Tarson forgot the one upgrade he had to make for the build to work: siege mode.
That makes me say that Terran players are so confident in their all-ins that they don't even bother playing another way or playing completely focused:
-"Fine I'll just 1-1-1 this noob and take 7k$ ez."
-"Dang, I forgot siege mode, I was just too busy counting the money I would get".
So obviously this is exaggerated and Tarson could have been overwhelmed by playing on a big stage in front of all his fans, but it still further proves that no, protoss is not the "easy OP A-move" race that people want it to be.
Just to note, it's rare that protoss players forget an upgrade. We chronoboost our ass off those because we know that they are vital and we're dead without many of them (but then some drop comes while phoenixes are roaming the map and snipes the TC before charge completes, right? T.T). How many times already did we see terran just forget about an upgrade like siege or concussive shell (and sometimes it's fine anyway)? The one time we saw a protoss forget about zealot charge (SangHo, and it was maybe his choice I don't know) he got punished severely for it (as that should be the case, of course).
But yeah, apart from that, protoss players don't do well because they're bad, that's common knowledge.
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On August 08 2011 01:20 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 00:56 SafeAsCheese wrote:On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT. Protoss is the least played race, thus they will have the least up and comers. You cannot blame that on balance, or you could spin it to say that the most played race is only played because it is seen as the strongest/most overpowered. From what I have seen, a lot of people just don't like protoss as a race, it's not enjoyable to a lot of people regardless of how it plays at a competitive level. Actually, Zerg is the least played race in KR Masters. Terran is by far the most played, with Protoss somewhere in between. On other servers, the race distribution in Masters is very even. You know guys, sitting here, in this thread, and just posting to correct factual errors is kind of tedious. At least do some basic fact-checking before you make an argument. :/
Even if SafeAsCheese was correct about Protoss being the least played thus having the least up-and-coming players, his argument still wouldn't make sense. If you take the ratios of Protoss up-and-comers compared to Terran up-and-comers, SafeAsCheese would have us believe that there are easily 4 times the Terran players that there are Protoss players, or even more, which simply makes no sense.
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One of the biggest issues with PvT IMO is just how many timings a Terran player can exploit to punish protoss - these 1-1-1 timings, ghost marine pushes etc just crush and are very hard to stop and very easy to execute. I do think Protoss needs looking at in HOTS becuase it really isn't fun to play (or watch) at the moment.
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On August 08 2011 03:35 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 01:20 Toadvine wrote:On August 08 2011 00:56 SafeAsCheese wrote:On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT. Protoss is the least played race, thus they will have the least up and comers. You cannot blame that on balance, or you could spin it to say that the most played race is only played because it is seen as the strongest/most overpowered. From what I have seen, a lot of people just don't like protoss as a race, it's not enjoyable to a lot of people regardless of how it plays at a competitive level. Actually, Zerg is the least played race in KR Masters. Terran is by far the most played, with Protoss somewhere in between. On other servers, the race distribution in Masters is very even. You know guys, sitting here, in this thread, and just posting to correct factual errors is kind of tedious. At least do some basic fact-checking before you make an argument. :/ Even if SafeAsCheese was correct about Protoss being the least played thus having the least up-and-coming players, his argument still wouldn't make sense. If you take the ratios of Protoss up-and-comers compared to Terran up-and-comers, SafeAsCheese would have us believe that there are easily 4 times the Terran players that there are Protoss players, or even more, which simply makes no sense.
Meh, I've seen a ton of bad arguments in my life, I'm not especially phased by those. If someone wants to argue that Protoss players are just inherently less-skilled because Protoss units look silly, then that's fine with me. Not like me responding to it will achieve much.
However, blatant falsehoods just tick me off, for whatever reason.
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holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D:
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On August 08 2011 01:21 JiYan wrote:
the issue is that protoss has nothing that can harrass that is destructable. baneling drops and hellion harrass (and even medivac drops to an extent) are all relatively very cheap and have lots of return in terms of harassment value. the dt and the phoenix are both 1-target fighters and are also both very expensive relative to their harassment value. the only unit that truly fits into this category would be the high templar, but that comes way late in the game and for quite a large sum.
I do think storm drops are underused, but high templar are so slow, warp prisms are so weak and it takes like 2.5-3 seconds of a storm to kill a worker. The only way it's going to do anything is if you don't see it coming. Players see BFH drops all the time, but they accept it's impossible to take no damage and they just try to minimize it. Baneling drops are also defendable, but with 1 mess up you could lose 20-30 probes instantly.
Also: planetary's
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On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D:
? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc).
Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty.
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On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty.
You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it.
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On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty.
There is Huk and MC that are good protoss in gsl, so obviously when you see any other protoss get dominated it looks like imbalance when in reality its just protoss players are bad..Another good protoss is Puzzle though, and he just won code A. Game seems pretty balanced atm with all win rates within about 5% of 50/50 :/
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On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D:
Yeah, well they whined when they won the first 2 GSL's.. :D
Protoss fighting, I love my race and don't feel that we're inferior to the other races! Sad that MC is our only hope though! Give him a month and P will be called OP again, damned whiners the lot of you!
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On August 08 2011 05:33 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. There is Huk and MC that are good protoss in gsl, so obviously when you see any other protoss get dominated it looks like imbalance when in reality its just protoss players are bad..Another good protoss is Puzzle though, and he just won code A. Game seems pretty balanced atm with all win rates within about 5% of 50/50 :/
If you honestly believe the protoss players in korea are bad compared to the terran / zerg players, then something is wrong with you.
It doesn't make sense at all that there are billions of terrans and good amount of zergs playing at the top, but all protoss suck?
That's just ridiculous.
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On August 08 2011 03:24 ZenithM wrote: How many times already did we see terran just forget about an upgrade like siege or concussive shell (and sometimes it's fine anyway)?
So Tarson forgets siege and loses the game, that's to be expected. The same when terran forgets stim, you can't do shit without it vs any race. Some player forgetting zealot legs doesn't really prove anything...
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EPT
