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On August 07 2011 21:12 escruting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. isnt it strange that magically there are a lot of "good" terran players? Its kinda stupid to think its just luck and that all the protoss players are bad. It doesnt make sense in any way, specially statistically speaking.
Yup, someone like Byun who played Protoss had absolutely no results. Now that he switched to Terran, he made it to Code A finals once and is looking like a strong player.
Coincidence?
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Protoss still seem to be having a lot of trouble in the Korean scene. However i'm more suprised that last time I saw this graph, International was just about 50/50/50, now Protoss and Zerg are lower internationally, below the 50% mark.
Quite interesting stuff, Really nice graphs OP, thanks a bunch.
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Just admit it guys, Terran is OP.. Let's make that clear so that Blizzard can make this game closer to balanced. That is all we want right?
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On August 07 2011 22:10 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 21:12 escruting wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. isnt it strange that magically there are a lot of "good" terran players? Its kinda stupid to think its just luck and that all the protoss players are bad. It doesnt make sense in any way, specially statistically speaking. Yup, someone like Byun who played Protoss had absolutely no results. Now that he switched to Terran, he made it to Code A finals once and is looking like a strong player. Coincidence?
He played protoss last year. It's been 8+- months since his switch. Really if you want to whine go whine somewhere else.
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Very sad for Protoss. They're getting demolished in Korea. I think they should redesign protoss in HOTS to do something about it like adding some good units that can hit and run..unlike dts because I look at them as suicide units when it comes to harassing. I think buffing/nerfing won't help much as well.
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So everyone is complaining about warpgates being all-in-ish.
Why wouldn't blizzard do it like this:
T1/2 can be made from Warpgates
T3 can only be made from Gateways(DT/HT I guess)
Warp Prisms would be severely nerfed, but they're hardly used anyway. Should edit the build-times but I guess it should be easier to balance stuff?
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Those graphs are really bad... Strech them a bit and they look normal... But as it stands the margin looks so big.
Hate those techniques to make something more interesting to look at.
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On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced.
What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT.
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On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT.
Were you calling P imba in June when the roles were reversed and P had an only a slightly lower win-rate against T than T has against P now? If this persists for more than a month or two, then such conclusions can be drawn. Right now, it could just be a brief metagame shift...
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This tells less about the state of game balance and more about the quality of players playing each race. If there are more terrans, and more of that higher number are better players, then the stats will look like that.
I dont see how this really shows much.
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On August 08 2011 00:43 Inertia_EU wrote:
This tells less about the state of game balance and more about the quality of players playing each race. If there are more terrans, and more of that higher number are better players, then the stats will look like that.
I dont see how this really shows much.
Arguably, game balance determines who the best-performing players are to an extent; if one race is significantly better than another, their players will do well disproportionately to their skill level; look at how MVP flattened Nestea in January despite how much better of a player Nestea is.
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On August 07 2011 23:43 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT. Were you calling P imba in June when the roles were reversed and P had an only a slightly lower win-rate against T than T has against P now? If this persists for more than a month or two, then such conclusions can be drawn. Right now, it could just be a brief metagame shift...
Uh, according to the graph in the opening post, the only time Protoss was significantly favored over Terran in Korea, was in February, with a 58% win rate for P. Furthermore, KA was removed shortly afterwards, so I don't think Terran players would enjoy the implications of this fact.
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On August 08 2011 00:50 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 23:43 imareaver3 wrote:On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT. Were you calling P imba in June when the roles were reversed and P had an only a slightly lower win-rate against T than T has against P now? If this persists for more than a month or two, then such conclusions can be drawn. Right now, it could just be a brief metagame shift... Uh, according to the graph in the opening post, the only time Protoss was significantly favored over Terran in Korea, was in February, with a 58% win rate for P. Furthermore, KA was removed shortly afterwards, so I don't think Terran players would enjoy the implications of this fact.
Meh, I prefer the international graph to the Korean one. Korean graph simply doesn't have enough games to really be valid, in my opinion.
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On August 07 2011 22:31 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 22:10 K3Nyy wrote:On August 07 2011 21:12 escruting wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. isnt it strange that magically there are a lot of "good" terran players? Its kinda stupid to think its just luck and that all the protoss players are bad. It doesnt make sense in any way, specially statistically speaking. Yup, someone like Byun who played Protoss had absolutely no results. Now that he switched to Terran, he made it to Code A finals once and is looking like a strong player. Coincidence? He played protoss last year. It's been 8+- months since his switch. Really if you want to whine go whine somewhere else.
Whine? If I remember correctly, he made to the finals of Code A right after he switched.
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France12908 Posts
On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT.
Epic stuff.
You don't see blue flame hellions in TvP often because mech sucks very badly, but when you see it you see also a lot of probes roasted : MC got sooo many probes roasted from blue flame hellion despite having "this skill" (lol).
In TvT you have your mineral lines roasted simply because terran don't have good static defense to support your wall-in, and partially because of that (plus the fact that marines melt to hellions and tanks/marauders are not in enough numbers to properly defend early game) we get to see "mass hellion before 2nd CC openings" recently. So the best defense against these hellions are hellions themselves, but with the aoe damage of the hellion sending more hellions to defend don't mean that you'll win the battle, so it's still easy to roast some drones.
about Byun : january code A was full of terrible games / players so making it to the final this time was alot easier. Code A finalist of May or July is really not the same as January code A finalist in terms of achievements
look at how MVP flattened Nestea in January despite how much better of a player Nestea is.
NesTea being a much better of a player than Mvp? NesTea himself would disagree with you and would not want to face Mvp in a series he want to win
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On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT.
Protoss is the least played race, thus they will have the least up and comers.
You cannot blame that on balance, or you could spin it to say that the most played race is only played because it is seen as the strongest/most overpowered.
From what I have seen, a lot of people just don't like protoss as a race, it's not enjoyable to a lot of people regardless of how it plays at a competitive level.
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It's actually good to see sizable swings like this. It shows that the game can change by itself just through evolving playstyles/standards without major balance patches. No reason to rush off and nerf everything as soon as one race starts winning more.
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look at how MVP flattened Nestea in January despite how much better of a player Nestea is.
nestea just recently became the best player in the world.
mvp was dominating in january and everyone was scared to face him.
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On August 08 2011 00:53 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 22:50 iamke55 wrote:On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage)
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. What about the possibility that Protoss simply takes more skill to play? To win PvT at the pro level, you need to be able to instantly see a dot on the minimap and react by running your probes and splitting your army on the fly. MC is the only Protoss player who has that skill, hence he is the only one who is strong vs Terran. Terran players don't have this skill or you wouldn't see them losing their entire mineral line to blue flame hellions in every recent TvT. Epic stuff. You don't see blue flame hellions in TvP often because mech sucks very badly, but when you see it you see also a lot of probes roasted : MC got sooo many probes roasted from blue flame hellion despite having "this skill" (lol). In TvT you have your mineral lines roasted simply because terran don't have good static defense to support your wall-in, and partially because of that (plus the fact that marines melt to hellions and tanks/marauders are not in enough numbers to properly defend early game) we get to see "mass hellion before 2nd CC openings" recently. So the best defense against these hellions are hellions themselves, but with the aoe damage of the hellion sending more hellions to defend don't mean that you'll win the battle, so it's still easy to roast some drones. about Byun : january code A was full of terrible games / players so making it to the final this time was alot easier. Code A finalist of May or July is really not the same as January code A finalist in terms of achievements Show nested quote +look at how MVP flattened Nestea in January despite how much better of a player Nestea is. NesTea being a much better of a player than Mvp? NesTea himself would disagree with you and would not want to face Mvp in a series he want to win
Mech being bad has nothing to do with hellions not being used, it's much like what Tyler on SOTG said along time ago where he said there are a lot of ways Protoss can harass a Zerg but they just aren't doing it because they don't need too right now in the current metagame. MMM is already favored in TvP right now, so there's no point in changing what is already working.
I don't wanna comment on TvT since I'm a Protoss but I don't know why you're saying Terran have bad static defenses when a cannon can't even take on a marauder with a medivac, Protoss always have to leave units behind for hellions, I barely ever see Terran's leave units back. But w/e
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On August 07 2011 22:27 Cartel wrote:
Just admit it guys, Terran is OP.. Let's make that clear so that Blizzard can make this game closer to balanced. That is all we want right?
I don't think terran is OP, I just think, like some people have said in this topic, terran just feels more "complete", Protoss needs some adjustments but I don't think nerfing Terran is the answer now, maybe they could adjust one or two things but the race is fine in my opinion.
Protoss needs something to be able to harass, I don't really think DT's are that great of a unit for that, because of how simple it is to deny it, even if it's a great unit to control space and make the terran be more carefully about getting out of his base, protoss still needs a new unit imo.
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EPT
