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escruting
Spain229 Posts
On August 07 2011 20:32 pAzand wrote: Acctually, I judge them by how they play the game  So, 2rax and bunker rush are a good way of playing the game for you? because we see it on almost every pro TvZ. And 4-gate or 6-gate is a bad way of playing the game, right? Inca and anypro are the only protoss you know? | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On August 07 2011 18:38 Beyonder wrote: But why does it revolve around 1 and 2 bases? Oh thats right, because there's problems with the game and the design. T_____T I honestly don't know why. I figured as the maps got bigger there'd be less 1 base all ins, but I think part of that might have to do with the mule being so powerful on 1 or 2 bases and it's ability to go over typical worker saturation levels. I don't think the mule is OP since the other races have chronoboost/larva, but it really makes 2 base play much stronger than some of the other races and that just so happens to be the timing where terran has most of its tech. Also, there's so many openers and it's just really hard to scout right now. I still think people are complaining in the wrong places. HTs are still ridiculously good, and going through the twilight council tech tree is not bad at all. Blink and charge are some of the best upgrades and sure you can't rush to hts but blink stalkers and charge zealots are very good to have still. I don't know if I'm satisfied with terran as a race as a whole though. Terran on 2-3 base is insanely fun to watch, I agree, and terran micro is by far my favorite as well as the aggressive style that terran has, but I don't think the race is perfect. The late game tech tree is just blegh, and there's nothing to really transition into, just more marines/tanks, or whatever you had in the midgame. | ||
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vrok
Sweden2541 Posts
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siri
Portugal129 Posts
On August 07 2011 20:20 mholden02 wrote: Korean Protoss are bad. Its 4 gate, 6 gate, 3 gate voidray, or DT's - EVERY GAME. Pick your cheese. Protoss late game is pretty good, to bad we never see it at GSL. wow cApTion GRANDMASTER with 300 APM is going to teach koreans protoss how play the game! they just need to tech to colossus storm and carriers at the same time ezzzzzzz late game is pretty good!!! (maybe they do it for some reason?) | ||
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TENTHST
United States204 Posts
i guess a 60% winrate isnt enuf | ||
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pAzand
Sweden539 Posts
On August 07 2011 20:39 escruting wrote: So, 2rax and bunker rush are a good way of playing the game for you? because we see it on almost every pro TvZ. And 4-gate or 6-gate is a bad way of playing the game, right? Inca and anypro are the only protoss you know? Name ONE top 15 terran that only cheeses and fail miserably against good players? I'm a Protoss player and I can say that our races big names are much, much worse players than the T/Z-players. When I think of GOOD Korean P players I come up with MC, Puzzle, Alicia, Sage, maybe Hero and san (?).. Naniwa and Huk are around the same skill level imho. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 07 2011 18:12 Beyonder wrote: Lets face it, terran is just the best race. Does not necessarily mean that they are imbalanced, but it IS the best race. If you combine the best harass/nerf units (banshee, BFH) with the mule and the ability to do various ingenious all-ins, then you have an insane race that forces the other races to play almost absolutely perfect. And noone plays perfect yet. That is why terran wins the most, that is why terran dominates teamleagues, that is why terran is simply the best right now. Not necessarily imbalanced, but it forces other races to play perfect and reactive. Just like in football, you can play reactive, but the moment you make one mistake in your defense, you have to switch it up. And the races dont have the ability to switch it up reliably, as there are simply no units that do the same thing as the banshee or BFH, except maybe the DT, but terran has built-in scans  . If the terran loses some workers, there's still mules to make up for it . Oh and you wont really make it to infestors/ht if you lose stuff early, because the T timings are unforgiving.And thats not even mentioning BO wins, which terrans dont really have problems with unless they fuck up greatly. There's a reason that protoss tries to do so many 'gimicky all-ins' (aka 2 base/1 base pressure). If you play for the alternative, you need to play absolutely perfect and reactive. And this is insanenly hard across multiple games. Better to try and force the terran to make some mistakes, as if you play normal, it simply all relies on YOUR ability, and not so much theirs. If anything, I dont think terran should be nerfed at all. Terran is the perfect race and it is the most fun to watch. And it is the most fun to watch for a reason: the units are fast, fragile, and they can change the game on their own. Just like the reaver could, just like the defiler could, just like the lurker could... Only the cool thing is, the terran units that do this are not really casters. And the sad thing is, id say protoss misses these units especially (except for the HT (colossi are dumb, totally not fun), but to reach the HT stage, you again need to play absolutely perfect and pray that the EMPS dont gut you 100% at the 10 different timings they have vs. you) So much wisdom in this. People need to stop thinking of what they want to win now and what will better sustain the future. Even Blizzard said Terran feels completely while the other races need additional tools. It's better to wait and have all races complete than to bring Terran down to an incomplete level. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
I think what makes the 1-1-1 so strong is the banshee and this therefore is the unit which Blizzard is going to have to probably do something about if terrans keep dominating with this build. It takes too many stalker hits to take out a banshee atm. I think a slight hp nerf to the banshee might be enough to make the 1-1-1 more manageable. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On August 07 2011 20:55 Numy wrote: So much wisdom in this. People need to stop thinking of what they want to win now and what will better sustain the future. Even Blizzard said Terran feels completely while the other races need additional tools. It's better to wait and have all races complete than to bring Terran down to an incomplete level. It's gonna be hard for Blizz to think any unit to add to Terran arsenal for HotS. | ||
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Shooks
Australia256 Posts
I think the reason for the huge % change in Terrans favor was the whole mass gate stye of play with upgrades/hts has been hugely figured out (Which is very popular in Korea). This is also speaking from experience from barely ever losing to a Terran 1-2 months ago and now losing most my PvTs. They've realized a lot of marines will actually own a Protoss army without Collosi and this allows them to also get 8+ ghosts which makes it almost impossible to cast a storm. And I disagree with people saying the 1/1/1 is the reason. It is very easy to stop but w/e. I barely ever see any KR toss streamers lose to it. Don't ask why so many lose to it in tournaments. | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. | ||
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Geordie
United Kingdom653 Posts
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Shooks
Australia256 Posts
On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote: Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage) Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. I really can't tell if you're trolling or not. I also love when you mention the 'good' toss player, you mention Sage who all killed a gstl team and that's all we've seen of him. | ||
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escruting
Spain229 Posts
On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote: Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage) Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. isnt it strange that magically there are a lot of "good" terran players? Its kinda stupid to think its just luck and that all the protoss players are bad. It doesnt make sense in any way, specially statistically speaking. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote: Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage) Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. So why do new top Terran pop up all the time and no new good Protoss players? Hard to imagine no good players choose Protoss. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On August 07 2011 21:08 Geordie wrote: Really surprises me how some people actually take the win percentages as a accurate tool to gauge how balanced the game is.. Is there something that can provide more accuracy at our disposal? | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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xTikka
Germany13 Posts
After tons of posts of protoss players saying the worst thing isn't just the Graphs and that protoss loses alot but that people are still saying Protoss is OP and still every third post i see in this thread talks about how Protoss players are just bad and that they suck and blablabla. To all those people that say Statistics aren't really telling if somethings OP or UP or whatever. This is right to a certain extent but sweet 38.8% vs 61.2% winrate doesnt show anything its just that there are so many more good Terrans in Korea. Which is where the problem lies in! Why are there so many good Terrans and no good Protosses? Oh yeah i forgot Protoss players just suck in total and theres a few exceptions like MC Nani HuK whoever but the rest is just total bullshit??? Yeah if you haven't figured it out yet im being somewhat sarcastic! I am again not saying that Protoss is UP or whatever and its certainly not OP. But the 1-1-1 is just amazingly strong right now. Also to those who always cry Protoss is just A-Move and win. Think about what your doing wrong in the early / mid game and consider that we might like to drop/ling runby/muta harass or whatever as well but seems like thats just too costly and ineffiecient for protoss. Now that all my rage is spoken out a big thanks to the creator of those graphs! They do have a meaning and i think what if not tournament results are a good indicator for race imbalances/meta game favourites since no one tries new stuff or throws away games in Tournaments. At least thats what i heard. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 07 2011 21:07 koolaid1990 wrote: Protoss just simply needs better players. I mean there are no protoss "mma, ganzi, jjaki, taeja, all the new terran good players, etc". For every 5 good terran players, there is like 1 good toss player(sage) Imagine if MMA or ganzi or any of them chose the protoss race, it would be much more balanced. Just for reference, ZENEXByun used to play Protoss, and was terrible at it. Switched to Terran, won Code A, recently finished in Top 4 of GSL July after beating Bomber. So if anything, we have evidence the other way around. | ||
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xTikka
Germany13 Posts
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EPT
Terran has soooo many good up and comming players and frontrunners of the race, what of Protoss? Inca? Anypro? 
