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On August 07 2011 17:54 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 17:35 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 07 2011 14:16 Amui wrote:On August 07 2011 13:52 JoeSchmoe wrote:
but heads up VR all-ins beats 1/1/1 almost all the time.
I think it'd be more helpful to link to somebody who's higher level than 99% of the posters on TL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753 specifically possiblity 3. 1/1/1 is actually stronger than a Xrax without stim opening against VR allins because you get microable units that outrange voidrays and stalkers respectively. that doesn't mean much when I'm referencing games from the highest levels of play, specifically ganzi vs hongun. possibility 3 would not even apply. there is no time to even get out a siege tank. the vr comes with a higher ground warp-in. all you have are a few marines and a banshee. Ganzi screwed up. I know he had a lot to do, but his viking sat way too close to the voids. Had he set his SCV's to auto repair and just kited with the viking to lure the voids over the bunker, he would've been fine. At that point in time, SCV's are 100% expendable. Only the viking was irreplaceable.
to pull off that kind of micro you would basically require ganzi to never take control off the viking. for him to pull that off in a crisis management situation is almost unreasonable. the viking is dead if the void rays connect even once (one was charged). Also he would need to target the void rays manually with his bunker for that to work because they were attacking zealots. I don't think he would even have enough room to micro in that situation. He spawned in the 2 o'clock position. there's not enough room to kite 2 void rays successfully in that space. also hongun could've easily camped his void rays on top of the starports and killed the viking as it comes out.
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Seeing the graph makes me appreciate MC more, we don't truly understand how tough it is out there for a Korean protoss, many get slaughtered in the first round, we usually end up with zerg/terrans up in the final 8. I hope this is no indication of UP for the protoss race, and I won't jump to conclusions yet... but it sure looks grim for my toss brethren.
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On August 07 2011 18:35 Fig wrote:
I think it is time for something to happen for toss. For too long we have been oppressed by nerfs that came when the game was young and no one knew what they were doing. The calls came in to Blizzard from everywhere that players didn't know how to beat Toss, and so Blizzard was forced to nerf it, or risk losing a large player base so early on in the game. Toss was nerfed so quickly that many people hadn't even played with the nerfed units before it happened. It is time to reevaluate whether reverting some of these changes would allow toss to hold their own in the present. Maybe we can even get one of those things called a buff that we've been hearing about so much from the other races =P
Haha, yeah. This. :D
More seriously though, hopefully we continue to find a way to make our race successful and fun to play (I always appreciate the level of support Brotoss tend to give one another). I've played around a little with Zerg (javla Terran!), but always return to Protoss as I love the lore and the units.
Adun be with us in the months to come, my Protoss brethren.
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On August 07 2011 17:11 wolfe wrote:
I all honesty I feel like these statistics are doing more harm than good atm. It's just leading to a lot of QQing and balance whining. This is a small sample size of the top players and as we can see it can vary drastically based on the meta. Drawing conclusions here only fuels rather pointless fires.
The international results arent really a small sample size, its taken from the TLDP meaning that it includes most of the online cups as well as larger tournaments.
Even in korea with the weekly online cup and teamleague , thats still a fairly decent sample size, those online cups have alot of games.
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On August 07 2011 18:45 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 18:40 HolyArrow wrote:On August 07 2011 18:37 Beyonder wrote:
Protoss doesnt needs buffs imo, it needs an expansion. Just imagine the race with the reaver, or any other semi-reliable harass unit that you can actually incorporate into your army (hello banshee/muta!).
Its just poor designed. The problem with that sentiment is that we'd have to deal with a sort of imbalance born from poor design all the way until an expansion comes out, which simply isn't an immediate option. Thats like saying you choose to believe in God because you are afraid of what happens when you die. Just accept it the way it is and wait patiently ^_^ And it isnt really imbalance, just different tools per race. One is a lot more suitable for a game in the early stage and allows you to maximize your skill level. The other asks you to play perfect or gamble it up :D
Well, I argue that the very nature of those tools indicates realistic imbalance. Not imbalance idealistically, since, ideally, if everyone played perfectly, the game would be balanced. But realistically, near-perfect play just doesn't happen consistently for players who have only been playing the game for less than two years. I realize that when we discuss balance, we usually talk about it in idealistic terms. That's why, in my previous post, I called it "a sort of imbalance" because I was departing from the connotations that I think people usually associate with the term.
Edit: To clarify, I guess this becomes a philosophical debate: Should balance be determined by the highest levels of play that actually exists, or should it be determined by who would win assuming both players play perfectly, even if to an unrealistic degree of perfection?
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Terran is the best race, because it has the least volatile mechanics to be balanced around. MULEs are kind of stupid, but they aren't as constricting design-wise as Spawn Larvae is for Zerg and Warpgates are for Protoss. It just has to do with bad ideas on a very basic level, which will continue to cause balance problems are new units are introduced.
There is some hope to be found in that Dustin Browder interview, where he concedes that Terran might just be more robust and consistent, rather than imbalanced. So hopefully they won't nerf Terran in some extremely stupid way (hello complete KA removal and Warpgate nerf) at least.
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Just make EMP and Fungal to require an upgrade. Tier 2 units like the ghost and infestor have better abilities than a tier 3 unit like the HT that have to research storm (no instant damage and can be kited).
PS: not to mention the extremely expensive tech tree compared to the ghost and infestor.
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On August 07 2011 18:48 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 17:54 Amui wrote:On August 07 2011 17:35 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 07 2011 14:16 Amui wrote:On August 07 2011 13:52 JoeSchmoe wrote:
but heads up VR all-ins beats 1/1/1 almost all the time.
I think it'd be more helpful to link to somebody who's higher level than 99% of the posters on TL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753 specifically possiblity 3. 1/1/1 is actually stronger than a Xrax without stim opening against VR allins because you get microable units that outrange voidrays and stalkers respectively. that doesn't mean much when I'm referencing games from the highest levels of play, specifically ganzi vs hongun. possibility 3 would not even apply. there is no time to even get out a siege tank. the vr comes with a higher ground warp-in. all you have are a few marines and a banshee. Ganzi screwed up. I know he had a lot to do, but his viking sat way too close to the voids. Had he set his SCV's to auto repair and just kited with the viking to lure the voids over the bunker, he would've been fine. At that point in time, SCV's are 100% expendable. Only the viking was irreplaceable. to pull off that kind of micro you would basically require ganzi to never take control off the viking. for him to pull that off in a crisis management situation is almost unreasonable. the viking is dead if the void rays connect even once (one was charged). Also he would need to target the void rays manually with his bunker for that to work because they were attacking zealots. I don't think he would even have enough room to micro in that situation. He spawned in the 2 o'clock position. there's not enough room to kite 2 void rays successfully in that space. also hongun could've easily camped his void rays on top of the starports and killed the viking as it comes out.
Have you actually kited Voidrays with Vikings before? It is not that hard, especially if you have a bunker of marines. Not only that but it forces the Protoss to micro his Voidray just as much as you have to micro your Viking
Besides that game come down to Ganzi not repairing his Bunker at all. That was the only thing he had to do that game to win and he didn't do it. You can't blame the all-in when he quite literally had the game won and didn't do the most simple task of repairing a bunker whilst two charged voidrays took 3seconds to kill it
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On August 07 2011 19:00 escruting wrote:
Just make EMP and Fungal to require an upgrade. Tier 2 units like the ghost and infestor have better abilities than a tier 3 unit like the HT that have to research storm (no instant damage and can be kited).
PS: not to mention the extremely expensive tech tree compared to the ghost and infestor.
Id say the other way around, they shouldnt require an ugrade at all to cast. Only one to upgrade energy :o enough dumbing down units in sc2
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imo protoss needs a buff, but idk what they could improve
maybe nerf terran like this: OC gaines less energy per second than other buildings/units so they couldnt scan/mule endless
also this would cut down svc sacking in lategame(u have mules so scvs are worthless)
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On August 07 2011 19:07 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 19:00 escruting wrote:
Just make EMP and Fungal to require an upgrade. Tier 2 units like the ghost and infestor have better abilities than a tier 3 unit like the HT that have to research storm (no instant damage and can be kited).
PS: not to mention the extremely expensive tech tree compared to the ghost and infestor. Id say the other way around, they shouldnt require an ugrade at all to cast. Only one to upgrade energy :o enough dumbing down units in sc2
I agree. I dont see why but i doubt blizzard would make storm a built-in ability. Other options could be making it faster, ht faster movement speed or decreasing the morph time for the archon, 12 seconds is a lot.
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Italy125 Posts
On August 07 2011 09:49 StrangrDangr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 09:47 tuho12345 wrote:
Holy....Look at protoss win rate -____- Are you really suprised?
No more suprise after high templar nerf
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On August 07 2011 18:53 Toadvine wrote:
Terran is the best race, because it has the least volatile mechanics to be balanced around. MULEs are kind of stupid, but they aren't as constricting design-wise as Spawn Larvae is for Zerg and Warpgates are for Protoss. It just has to do with bad ideas on a very basic level, which will continue to cause balance problems are new units are introduced.
There is some hope to be found in that Dustin Browder interview, where he concedes that Terran might just be more robust and consistent, rather than imbalanced. So hopefully they won't nerf Terran in some extremely stupid way (hello complete KA removal and Warpgate nerf) at least.
Warpgates constricting? It's one of P's strongest feats and a big reason why they win all big battles, insta-reinforcements.
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Interesting chart, TvZ leveling out, TvP smells of 1-1-1 all in 
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On August 07 2011 19:23 Naganis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 09:49 StrangrDangr wrote:On August 07 2011 09:47 tuho12345 wrote:
Holy....Look at protoss win rate -____- Are you really suprised? No more suprise after high templar nerf
I thought that explained the April numbers. This month is likely due to 1) 1/1/1 becoming trendy again and still being insanely tough to hold off, 2) Terrans finally embracing their HT... the ghost which they hadn't used for 9months.
Toss has struggled from the start and as such quite a bit has been figured out vT. vZ i'd blame the lack of a good opener at the time. Right now it feels almost impossible to get a solid nonallin against zerg to work but im willing to concede my personal ignorance/ need more time (stargate builds look impotent after the sporecrawler buff, MC excepted).
Edit: Beyonder beautiful post. Hit the nail perfectly. Yeah it's a design probelm. Reaver(BFH) HT(ghost) ontop of an extremely strong normal army. Actually think maybe some sort of delay in getting an obc might do the trick of weakening the earlygame just barely enough to hurt some of that aggression.
Edit2: Oh god someone please run this without NesTea or MC.
Edit3: WIth all of this talk about people being inspired by boxer bla bla bla Uh hello? Who has a german fan boy in the audience whenever he plays? Who has the loudest Fanboys in proleague? SONG BYONG GOO that's who. (Stupid fantasy)
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Lol, Korean PvZ graph looks like sinus and cosinus functions.
That's more because evolving of MU rather than because of patches.
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On August 07 2011 19:25 alepov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 18:53 Toadvine wrote:
Terran is the best race, because it has the least volatile mechanics to be balanced around. MULEs are kind of stupid, but they aren't as constricting design-wise as Spawn Larvae is for Zerg and Warpgates are for Protoss. It just has to do with bad ideas on a very basic level, which will continue to cause balance problems are new units are introduced.
There is some hope to be found in that Dustin Browder interview, where he concedes that Terran might just be more robust and consistent, rather than imbalanced. So hopefully they won't nerf Terran in some extremely stupid way (hello complete KA removal and Warpgate nerf) at least. Warpgates constricting? It's one of P's strongest feats and a big reason why they win all big battles, insta-reinforcements.
Read what I wrote again. Warpgates are constricting design-wise, they essentially force anything that can be build out of them to be mediocre. KA wasn't removed because it was too good, it was removed because warping an HT with Storm ready anywhere on the map was too good. Gateway units were a lot better in Brood War, but they had to be nerfed in order to balance out Warpgate. Similarly, DTs now need to be unlocked by a super expensive and slow-building structure, because they don't have to walk all the way across the map to get to the opponent's base.
Also, on a philosophical level, Warpgates encourage all-ins more than anything else, because they provide a huge offensive advantage, and no defensive advantage.
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PvT must have been because of the cursed 1/1/1, requires like double the skill then executing it. This is starting to feel a bit like when ZvT was crazily terran favored, except now it's us protoss that suffer. 
I see only MC makes the PvT what it is, else I mean it would be down 30% or something.
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On August 07 2011 18:52 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 17:11 wolfe wrote:
I all honesty I feel like these statistics are doing more harm than good atm. It's just leading to a lot of QQing and balance whining. This is a small sample size of the top players and as we can see it can vary drastically based on the meta. Drawing conclusions here only fuels rather pointless fires. The international results arent really a small sample size, its taken from the TLDP meaning that it includes most of the online cups as well as larger tournaments. Even in korea with the weekly online cup and teamleague , thats still a fairly decent sample size, those online cups have alot of games.
Yea, you can check the sample size too... It is fairly big.
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On August 07 2011 19:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 18:48 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 07 2011 17:54 Amui wrote:On August 07 2011 17:35 JoeSchmoe wrote:On August 07 2011 14:16 Amui wrote:On August 07 2011 13:52 JoeSchmoe wrote:
but heads up VR all-ins beats 1/1/1 almost all the time.
I think it'd be more helpful to link to somebody who's higher level than 99% of the posters on TL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753 specifically possiblity 3. 1/1/1 is actually stronger than a Xrax without stim opening against VR allins because you get microable units that outrange voidrays and stalkers respectively. that doesn't mean much when I'm referencing games from the highest levels of play, specifically ganzi vs hongun. possibility 3 would not even apply. there is no time to even get out a siege tank. the vr comes with a higher ground warp-in. all you have are a few marines and a banshee. Ganzi screwed up. I know he had a lot to do, but his viking sat way too close to the voids. Had he set his SCV's to auto repair and just kited with the viking to lure the voids over the bunker, he would've been fine. At that point in time, SCV's are 100% expendable. Only the viking was irreplaceable. to pull off that kind of micro you would basically require ganzi to never take control off the viking. for him to pull that off in a crisis management situation is almost unreasonable. the viking is dead if the void rays connect even once (one was charged). Also he would need to target the void rays manually with his bunker for that to work because they were attacking zealots. I don't think he would even have enough room to micro in that situation. He spawned in the 2 o'clock position. there's not enough room to kite 2 void rays successfully in that space. also hongun could've easily camped his void rays on top of the starports and killed the viking as it comes out. Have you actually kited Voidrays with Vikings before? It is not that hard, especially if you have a bunker of marines. Not only that but it forces the Protoss to micro his Voidray just as much as you have to micro your Viking Besides that game come down to Ganzi not repairing his Bunker at all. That was the only thing he had to do that game to win and he didn't do it. You can't blame the all-in when he quite literally had the game won and didn't do the most simple task of repairing a bunker whilst two charged voidrays took 3seconds to kill it
actually it's harder than you think, I play terran. go try it yourself. it's easy when the void ray is chasing you in which the movement is predictable so you just kite like you usually do. but if they move the vr away, the viking moves forward to attack, then turn the void ray immediately to attack, most likely it hits and it will take you 2 seconds to move out of range. it's the same thing with muta/phoenix micro. mutas can technically never catch up to phoenixes so zerg players do the same thing to catch phoenixes. there's not much micro involved for void rays. the terran is the one that's trying to kite.
actually the repair on the bunker is a complete non factor. the only remote chance he had was keeping the viking alive which he lost almost immediately. at the time there were 3 void rays + 3 stalkers to 4 marines in a bunker. the bunker wasn't even in range of his mineral patches so the void rays can just camp there and deny all mining. eventually the terran would run out of minerals to repair the bunker (toss attacks bunker with vr, moves away before health is lost on vr, waits for shield to recharge, repeat).
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EPT
