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On August 07 2011 19:45 eYeball wrote:PvT must have been because of the cursed 1/1/1, requires like double the skill then executing it. This is starting to feel a bit like when ZvT was crazily terran favored, except now it's us protoss that suffer.  I see only MC makes the PvT what it is, else I mean it would be down 30% or something.
Even I, who abuse the 1/1/1 all in on ladder hard, can see what you're getting at. My TvP was always my weakest MU, until I started using this build. Now I have positive scores against almost every P in top 100.
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Warpgate is a mechanic that promote too much offensive advantage (all-ins) and force most gateway units to be bad. However changing how the warpgate work would be a too big of a change for Toss, until HotS at least.
That aside, Blizzard should seriously consider nerfing 1-1-1. The Thor was nerfed for a lot less. This is almost as bad as looking 5-rax reapers, it's frustrating even for a viewer. Dunno how you can nerf that without making too big since Terran already feel the weakest race after midgame. Make Marine 40 hp without the shields to nerf early-game all-ins overall? Add a 5-10 secs switch time when you connect an add-on to delay all those timing?
We'll see.
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On August 07 2011 19:57 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 19:45 eYeball wrote:PvT must have been because of the cursed 1/1/1, requires like double the skill then executing it. This is starting to feel a bit like when ZvT was crazily terran favored, except now it's us protoss that suffer. I see only MC makes the PvT what it is, else I mean it would be down 30% or something. Even I, who abuse the 1/1/1 all in on ladder hard, can see what you're getting at. My TvP was always my weakest MU, until I started using this build. Now I have positive scores against almost every P in top 100.
Haha lol. I have started on ladder actually go blind counter to this build because it comes so damn often, even if I do sometimes it's not enough still. Well, at least this motivates me and perhaps other protoss players to get better and then if there's a new patch the matchup will shift again(hopefully). 
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Looks like Korean ZvP is very, very volatile :o
Anyone has a viable reasoning for this?
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On August 07 2011 20:01 Linz wrote:
Looks like Korean ZvP is very, very volatile :o
Anyone has a viable reasoning for this?
To me, the matchup always seemed pretty all-or-nothing. Either Protoss is able to do some really good damage early on with a strong opening, or Zerg macros way ahead and overruns the Toss later on. Thus, periods of Protoss dominance are likely where Toss figures out a new effective way to cripple Zerg early on, and periods of Zerg dominance are where Zerg figures out how to deal with what Toss is doing, and Toss has to figure out something else. This is all just my theory though. I'm not all that knowledgeable, but I watch plenty of games, so that's my impression of the MU at the top level.
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On August 07 2011 20:01 Linz wrote:
Looks like Korean ZvP is very, very volatile :o
Anyone has a viable reasoning for this?
Infestor play kills off some very ridiculously strong lategame ball play and just damn good in general.
Warpgate nerf
Ling/roach allin (losira seemed to have brought about its modern incarnation.) Optimal strat against it is Stargate which has been neutered by the sporecrawler change and generally the perfection of the response by zergs. (DRG at mlg... running a spore to the base before the creep had finished. It was almost blind).
Nest-imba. Zergs have figured out the current sets of timings and generally can annihilate any pressure that isn't an allin. Also this is my slightly more biased opinion. Zergs have started to focus less on mass macro and are microing a bit more. Morrow's baneling bomb style was a good example of a very very effective harass that seems the naive viewer to be underused.+ Show Spoiler + Nestea needs to quit t.t soo smart
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On August 07 2011 19:42 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 19:25 alepov wrote:On August 07 2011 18:53 Toadvine wrote:
Terran is the best race, because it has the least volatile mechanics to be balanced around. MULEs are kind of stupid, but they aren't as constricting design-wise as Spawn Larvae is for Zerg and Warpgates are for Protoss. It just has to do with bad ideas on a very basic level, which will continue to cause balance problems are new units are introduced.
There is some hope to be found in that Dustin Browder interview, where he concedes that Terran might just be more robust and consistent, rather than imbalanced. So hopefully they won't nerf Terran in some extremely stupid way (hello complete KA removal and Warpgate nerf) at least. Warpgates constricting? It's one of P's strongest feats and a big reason why they win all big battles, insta-reinforcements. Read what I wrote again. Warpgates are constricting design-wise, they essentially force anything that can be build out of them to be mediocre. KA wasn't removed because it was too good, it was removed because warping an HT with Storm ready anywhere on the map was too good. Gateway units were a lot better in Brood War, but they had to be nerfed in order to balance out Warpgate. Similarly, DTs now need to be unlocked by a super expensive and slow-building structure, because they don't have to walk all the way across the map to get to the opponent's base. Also, on a philosophical level, Warpgates encourage all-ins more than anything else, because they provide a huge offensive advantage, and no defensive advantage.
That's a good point. The strength and weakness of protoss currently is the Warpgate tech. It's probably the strongest upgrade in the entire game, just costs 50/50 and is available around the 7 min mark which is fairly quick. This means that all the protoss gateway units have to be balanced around this one overpowered upgrade which makes these units fairly weak early on, which is where most protoss problems are. This is also the root of the PvP issues with 4 gate.
This also forces protoss to rely too much on the sentry. The mismicro of a zergling, roach or marine may mean the zerg/terran player getting a bit behind but the mismicro of a sentry is gg for protoss.
Once toss gets to late game however, I think they are fairly well balanced.
The best way to take care of this is to make toss early game stronger, or units to warp in faster while balancing it by making the warpgate a t2+ upgrade (maybe council or robo bay).However it may be too late to fix this so we will be forever with an unstable race known for their vulnerability to cheeses as they well as for their gimmicky cheeses revolving around the warpgate timing.
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Protoss doing bad = bad players, race still OP.
Zerg doing bad = amazing players, race obviously broken.
Terran doing bad = lolwat?
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On August 07 2011 20:12 VENDIZ wrote:
Protoss doing bad = bad players, race still OP.
Zerg doing bad = amazing players, race obviously broken.
Terran doing bad = lolwat?
Never has so much truth been spoken.
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It was totally balanced in June, almost perfect balance. No need to over react and see if Terrans strong July cools a bit.
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KA back and it makes ht gain energy faster instead of more start energy?
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On August 07 2011 20:12 VENDIZ wrote:
Protoss doing bad = bad players, race still OP.
Zerg doing bad = amazing players, race obviously broken.
Terran doing bad = lolwat?
Korean Protoss are bad. Its 4 gate, 6 gate, 3 gate voidray, or DT's - EVERY GAME. Pick your cheese. Protoss late game is pretty good, to bad we never see it at GSL.
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I'd say judging from this, PvZ is the most volatile metagame match up.
to see complete reversals constantly in domination is insane.
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Terran and Zerg players are just better atm! Terran has soooo many good up and comming players and frontrunners of the race, what of Protoss? Inca? Anypro?
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damn terran imba!
interesting graphs thanks for this!
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Russian Federation138 Posts
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On August 07 2011 20:20 mholden02 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 20:12 VENDIZ wrote:
Protoss doing bad = bad players, race still OP.
Zerg doing bad = amazing players, race obviously broken.
Terran doing bad = lolwat? Korean Protoss are bad. Its 4 gate, 6 gate, 3 gate voidray, or DT's - EVERY GAME. Pick your cheese. Protoss late game is pretty good, to bad we never see it at GSL.
As opposed to how good Terran players are, with their skillful 1/1/1 builds?
Besides, barely anyone is 4gating nowadays, and 6 gate seems largely abandoned too. If anything, Protoss players are playing super standard vs Zerg, with either Stargate or Blink every game. Also, DT expand builds against Terran are not cheesy at all.
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On August 07 2011 20:25 pAzand wrote:Terran and Zerg players are just better atm! Terran has soooo many good up and comming players and frontrunners of the race, what of Protoss? Inca? Anypro?
You just judge players by their results?
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On August 07 2011 20:29 escruting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 20:25 pAzand wrote:Terran and Zerg players are just better atm! Terran has soooo many good up and comming players and frontrunners of the race, what of Protoss? Inca? Anypro? You just judge players by their results?
Acctually, I judge them by how they play the game
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terran has always been favoured
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EPT
