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On August 08 2011 05:39 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:33 Jesushooves wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. There is Huk and MC that are good protoss in gsl, so obviously when you see any other protoss get dominated it looks like imbalance when in reality its just protoss players are bad..Another good protoss is Puzzle though, and he just won code A. Game seems pretty balanced atm with all win rates within about 5% of 50/50 :/ If you honestly believe the protoss players in korea are bad compared to the terran / zerg players, then something is wrong with you. It doesn't make sense at all that there are billions of terrand and good amount of zergs playing at the top, but all protoss suck? That's just ridiculous.
I didn't say all the protoss suck, I said there are few good ones, even Huk posted in the thread on TL once about protoss he said it seems like there are just no good up and coming protoss. And like I said, Puzzle just won code A so I don't see how it is that imbalanced especially considering he 2-0 or 3-0'd everyone until the final pvp, which almost everyone says is probably the most volatile matchup.
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On August 08 2011 05:33 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. There is Huk and MC that are good protoss in gsl, so obviously when you see any other protoss get dominated it looks like imbalance when in reality its just protoss players are bad..Another good protoss is Puzzle though, and he just won code A. Game seems pretty balanced atm with all win rates within about 5% of 50/50 :/
You say it seems balanced, but did you even look at the graphs? Remember the amulet upgrade before that was taken out? protoss win rate was 58% v T in korea. Now we look at the win rate of PvT in korea and see it is even worse in terrans favor, with only 38% win rate now for toss. And now you say it's balanced and no patch is needed huh?
And don't tell me you are only looking at the international graph either. Because then if you look at the same time periods for that graph, you see toss barely had an advantage for a single month, and then there was the KA nerf. And now terran is doing better than toss had been with the amulet. Either way your logic is flawed. The graphs in the OP are there for everyone to look at, so don't try to spread misinformation, it isn't going to work.
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On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it.
In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all.
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And this isn't even from ladder, which is the most interesting to me, since close positions really favor bunker rushing, marine/scv all-ins and the dreaded 1-1-1 push.
For those saying that if you look at the international graph that it is balanced and to ignore the Korean graph due to the small sample size, did you forget to look at TvZ? T is ahead by 11%.
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On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D:
Because it's true? Every time protoss has been struggling in star 2 you've never seen the outcry that we have from zerg players.
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Mmm, I'm not really surprised at the Protoss winrate.
We really need to find a less passive way to play. Protoss gameplay never really looked good in general, it only worked while the other races were doing things wrong. 
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On August 08 2011 05:45 Fig wrote:
You say it seems balanced, but did you even look at the graphs? Remember the amulet upgrade before that was taken out? protoss win rate was 58% v T in korea. Now we look at the win rate of PvT in korea and see it is even worse in terrans favor, with only 38% win rate now for toss. And now you say it's balanced and no patch is needed huh?.
This is what I hate.
OMG IMBA NERF IT, we are only winning 38% (4 out of 10) games! That's almost half our games! WTF!
To all of Team Liquid:
You will almost NEVER see the graphs go "herp derp 50/50 split" or even hardly get within 5% of each other. Matchups ALWAYS favor one race over the other, that's just how the metagame shifts. Notice how ALL the graphs go up for one, down for the other, and then they cross, and go back. There are some BIG drops, when certain more powerful strategies come along, but it always evens back out.
Someone comes up with something (it might be powerful, like the 1-1-1 all in vs toss, or maybe not). And people lose to it for a month and cry imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba patch nerf plox imba imba. If we keep getting patches, this game is going to suck balls in a year or two, because there will be no good units at all, everything will be nice and stale, just the way everyone likes it.
Back when the game started people complained about how bullshit 1 base timings and strats were, and that the game would never go anywhere. Look where we are now! We get sick macro games all the time. Toss are just bitching right now because its their turn to bitch, after having "supposedly" (according to the QQers of the other races) been the strongest race. How about people get out there, and actually construct builds to be stronger and safer against these "op" builds, rather than whining about it? kthxbai
This post by me is poorly constructed, so sorry for readers of it, I just need to vent on this.
EDIT: Not meant as a personal attack on the quoted poster, just my feelings about this attitude in general.
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On August 08 2011 06:03 Talin wrote:Mmm, I'm not really surprised at the Protoss winrate. We really need to find a less passive way to play. Protoss gameplay never really looked good in general, it only worked while the other races were doing things wrong.
Also sir, I love you for having this kind of approach to the game.
"Let's change our playstyle to see what we can come up with"
: )
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It's amazing how people forget that terran has no lategame units. Lategame tvp feels so hard for terran, but that could be me..
Also don't forget you need alot of apm to play macro-terran style. That's why korean terrans are doing much better.
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France13021 Posts
The funny thing about international graph is that when you look at the TLPD, the only terrans in the top 30 are all korean + Kas & Tarson, whereas the other races have a lot of europeans representatives.
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On August 08 2011 06:08 Snowbear wrote:
It's amazing how people forget that terran has no lategame units. Lategame tvp feels so hard for terran, but that could be me..
Yeah, I used to think TvP was Protoss favored for a long time until I saw MC vs Puma.
I think it's still Protoss favored in our noob levels but at the highest level, when Terrans can drop 3 places at once and EMP the entire Protoss army while microing back the MMM, I think it favors Terran.
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On August 08 2011 06:13 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:08 Snowbear wrote:
It's amazing how people forget that terran has no lategame units. Lategame tvp feels so hard for terran, but that could be me.. Yeah, I used to think TvP was Protoss favored for a long time until I saw MC vs Puma. I think it's still Protoss favored in our noob levels but at the highest level, when Terrans can drop 3 places at once and EMP the entire Protoss army while microing back the MMM, I think it favors Terran.
You mean at this moment in time, of course! It favours Terran.
Let's just see what our two-time GSL Champ MC is going to do about that soon though! : )
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Sorry to say that a difference of 8% does not balance make.
If you could have 8% higher chance to win every game on a professional level, wouldn't you do it too? I don't see why ppl are questioning the high level terrans in korea...
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France13021 Posts
On August 08 2011 06:13 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:08 Snowbear wrote:
It's amazing how people forget that terran has no lategame units. Lategame tvp feels so hard for terran, but that could be me.. Yeah, I used to think TvP was Protoss favored for a long time until I saw MC vs Puma. I think it's still Protoss favored in our noob levels but at the highest level, when Terrans can drop 3 places at once and EMP the entire Protoss army while microing back the MMM, I think it favors Terran.
Puma vs MC was a lot more about the maps : terminus RE highly P favored, MC won with 60 probes killed, backwater gulch terran favored Puma won easily, etc etc.
On pure GSL maps it would've been way harder for PuMa to win despite his crazy multitasking
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On August 07 2011 20:20 mholden02 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 20:12 VENDIZ wrote:
Protoss doing bad = bad players, race still OP.
Zerg doing bad = amazing players, race obviously broken.
Terran doing bad = lolwat? Korean Protoss are bad. Its 4 gate, 6 gate, 3 gate voidray, or DT's - EVERY GAME. Pick your cheese. Protoss late game is pretty good, to bad we never see it at GSL.
As opposed to all the terrans doing 1/1/1 i dont see how its any different except for the fact that 1/1/1 is a better build and you hardly ever see any protoss go 4 gate or 6 gate anymore, and like someone else said dt expand is NOT a cheese.
Show me some examples of how protoss are doing 4 gate or 6 gate everygame, sure we see some 3 gate voidray but it certainly isnt every gaame, and definitely not that often, we will see protoss players throw it in now and then in a best of 3 or 5 but its not nearly as prevalent as the 1/1/1 build.
Speaking of 1 base builds though, i dont think anyone really explored IMSeeds gateway robo stargate build enough, with immortals void rays then transition into 4 gate to pump out more units while your pushing, if terran is expanding i think this build has alot of potential , even if they bunker up immortals and voidrays do pretty damn well against bunkers while zealots take the damage.
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On August 08 2011 06:13 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:08 Snowbear wrote:
It's amazing how people forget that terran has no lategame units. Lategame tvp feels so hard for terran, but that could be me.. Yeah, I used to think TvP was Protoss favored for a long time until I saw MC vs Puma. I think it's still Protoss favored in our noob levels but at the highest level, when Terrans can drop 3 places at once and EMP the entire Protoss army while microing back the MMM, I think it favors Terran.
That's what you get though if you never contest air control or map control at any point in the game.
Our biggest problem right now is keeping army in a big clump (just not acceptable any more) at one point in the map and hoping the opponent will be scared enough from a doom push to keep his army in a big clump as well.
But other races are discovering all the cool stuff you can do when you utilize mobility and control that the Protoss just gives away for free.
I like the Stargate trend in PvZ, but so many players are now using it like a "I'm gonna kill your 3rd lol" tool instead of a "the whole map belongs to me now" tool. Also building multiple Void Rays instead of Phoenix is something I dislike a lot.
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On August 08 2011 06:05 stlh2opolo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:45 Fig wrote:
You say it seems balanced, but did you even look at the graphs? Remember the amulet upgrade before that was taken out? protoss win rate was 58% v T in korea. Now we look at the win rate of PvT in korea and see it is even worse in terrans favor, with only 38% win rate now for toss. And now you say it's balanced and no patch is needed huh?. This is what I hate. OMG IMBA NERF IT, we are only winning 38% (4 out of 10) games! That's almost half our games! WTF! To all of Team Liquid: You will almost NEVER see the graphs go "herp derp 50/50 split" or even hardly get within 5% of each other. Matchups ALWAYS favor one race over the other, that's just how the metagame shifts. Notice how ALL the graphs go up for one, down for the other, and then they cross, and go back. There are some BIG drops, when certain more powerful strategies come along, but it always evens back out. Someone comes up with something (it might be powerful, like the 1-1-1 all in vs toss, or maybe not). And people lose to it for a month and cry imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba imba patch nerf plox imba imba. If we keep getting patches, this game is going to suck balls in a year or two, because there will be no good units at all, everything will be nice and stale, just the way everyone likes it. Back when the game started people complained about how bullshit 1 base timings and strats were, and that the game would never go anywhere. Look where we are now! We get sick macro games all the time. Toss are just bitching right now because its their turn to bitch, after having "supposedly" (according to the QQers of the other races) been the strongest race. How about people get out there, and actually construct builds to be stronger and safer against these "op" builds, rather than whining about it? kthxbai This post by me is poorly constructed, so sorry for readers of it, I just need to vent on this. EDIT: Not meant as a personal attack on the quoted poster, just my feelings about this attitude in general.
I didn't say anything about things being imba or for that matter anything of the sort. I was just pointing out the contradictions of the post that I quoted. It doesn't make sense to instantly nerf something when the game is young and people haven't learned much yet, and then to turn around a year into the game and say don't touch it when the same timing attack has been dispatching most protoss it is used on since the beta.
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On August 08 2011 05:47 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it. In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all.
No in other words, Terrans found a good allin that skewed the results, either the 1/1/1 gets nerfed or the Protoss firgure out how to hold, doesn't mean the game is fundamentally broken.
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what is happening to protoss atm is what will happen to any race when in every patch since release you do nothing but nerf them and have hardly anything to show for it
everything from removing HT energy when ghosts and infestor upgrades are still in game, storm being a research item when EMP and fungal are not, nerf to warpgate time... all for 5 second faster sentries, when gateways are only effective early game before the warpgates finish
something needs to be done by blizzard to help protoss out, not a complete buff, just something, or else this disparity will increase
oh and terran are on top for every single graph... nuf' said
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On August 08 2011 06:34 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:47 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it. In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all. No in other words, Terrans found a good allin that skewed the results, either the 1/1/1 gets nerfed or the Protoss firgure out how to hold, doesn't mean the game is fundamentally broken.
I think the trend was for protoss to do a 1-2 gate robo expand, and 1/1/1 allin basically hard counters that because toss doesn't get enough econ or army to defend the push adequately.
If you play like genius does, with one gate expand into heavy gateway early game (4-5) without cutting probes and getting twilight council for zealot charge, these pushes become a lot weaker, not saying it is easy but it is possible to beat.
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EPT
