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On August 08 2011 06:34 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:47 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it. In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all. No in other words, Terrans found a good allin that skewed the results, either the 1/1/1 gets nerfed or the Protoss firgure out how to hold, doesn't mean the game is fundamentally broken.
The problem is that 1/1/1 is incredibly difficult to nerf (because none of the units in it are too strong on their own), it's been around since Beta, and Protosses still don't have a consistently effective response for it. The fact that Terran is just designed so well in how its units complement each other can constitute an argument for how the game is "fundamentally broken" - because the other two races aren't designed well enough in contrast. As Beyonder has said, this seems to be more of a design problem rather than a balance problem, and one could argue that a design problem constitutes "fundamental brokenness" because it can't be effectively fixed by just buffing or nerfing stuff - you need to change the matchup at its core, whether it means giving Protoss an effective harass unit as Dustin Browder said in an interview, or through some other means.
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Lol no more QQing from NA terrans please. Everytime a terran tells me toss is op I tell them statistics say otherwise and terran will most likely get nerfed, but they think I'm lying lol. If they still think toss is OP I feel bad for when they get nerfed in the upcoming patch.
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On August 08 2011 05:45 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:33 Jesushooves wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. There is Huk and MC that are good protoss in gsl, so obviously when you see any other protoss get dominated it looks like imbalance when in reality its just protoss players are bad..Another good protoss is Puzzle though, and he just won code A. Game seems pretty balanced atm with all win rates within about 5% of 50/50 :/ You say it seems balanced, but did you even look at the graphs? Remember the amulet upgrade before that was taken out? protoss win rate was 58% v T in korea. Now we look at the win rate of PvT in korea and see it is even worse in terrans favor, with only 38% win rate now for toss. And now you say it's balanced and no patch is needed huh? And don't tell me you are only looking at the international graph either. Because then if you look at the same time periods for that graph, you see toss barely had an advantage for a single month, and then there was the KA nerf. And now terran is doing better than toss had been with the amulet. Either way your logic is flawed. The graphs in the OP are there for everyone to look at, so don't try to spread misinformation, it isn't going to work.
The sample size is so retarded small, I don't think you can get balance from that graph, look at the pvz trend ffs....In any case if you see 38% winrate for toss vs terran for a longer time on a larger scale, maybe the matchup is imbalanced, but I'm not convinced until I see it.
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and after a year, people still think that protoss is the best race and the protoss players are just bad...
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On August 08 2011 06:49 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol no more QQing from NA terrans please. Everytime a terran tells me toss is op I tell them statistics say otherwise and terran will most likely get nerfed, but they think I'm lying lol. If they still think toss is OP I feel bad for when they get nerfed in the upcoming patch.
Just keep in mind last month toss was winning 51.7% of the time vs terran globally ^^
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On August 08 2011 06:52 rpgalon wrote:
and after a year, people still think that protoss is the best race and the protoss players are just bad...
b-b-b-but I lost all my tanks to that nooby protoss on iccup who 2 base carrier'd me!
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On August 08 2011 06:19 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 20:20 mholden02 wrote:On August 07 2011 20:12 VENDIZ wrote:
Protoss doing bad = bad players, race still OP.
Zerg doing bad = amazing players, race obviously broken.
Terran doing bad = lolwat? Korean Protoss are bad. Its 4 gate, 6 gate, 3 gate voidray, or DT's - EVERY GAME. Pick your cheese. Protoss late game is pretty good, to bad we never see it at GSL. As opposed to all the terrans doing 1/1/1 i dont see how its any different except for the fact that 1/1/1 is a better build and you hardly ever see any protoss go 4 gate or 6 gate anymore, and like someone else said dt expand is NOT a cheese. Show me some examples of how protoss are doing 4 gate or 6 gate everygame, sure we see some 3 gate voidray but it certainly isnt every gaame, and definitely not that often, we will see protoss players throw it in now and then in a best of 3 or 5 but its not nearly as prevalent as the 1/1/1 build. Speaking of 1 base builds though, i dont think anyone really explored IMSeeds gateway robo stargate build enough, with immortals void rays then transition into 4 gate to pump out more units while your pushing, if terran is expanding i think this build has alot of potential , even if they bunker up immortals and voidrays do pretty damn well against bunkers while zealots take the damage.
Inca vs Nestea in that one GSL finals was a clear example of bad protoss players somehow doing well.
His stupid DT build got scouted like what, 3 times, and it utterly failed. Every. Single. Time. And this was the guy that got to the finals.
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Helions are too good tbh. Name one protoss units that effectively deals with them. (Don't say blink stalkers plz since they need like 9 shots to kill one).
+ Show Spoiler + Off topic: I really wish they would make P drops more viable. T have helions and Z have banelings. What do P have? HT's maybe? But you can quite easily run from a storm. I guess that is what they are thinking about adding to P in HOTS.
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On August 08 2011 06:52 rpgalon wrote:
and after a year, people still think that protoss is the best race and the protoss players are just bad...
Terran players are just so much more skillful. You know how much apm and skill it takes to "multitask" a drop? It's so easy to defend drops. And then upgrades definitely do not help terran. 1-1 is terrible. I don't think a good terran should lose to a toss.
Maybe a tweak to stalkers would do the trick. Only problem would be infinite stalker balls in PvZ but that's mre a matter of poor rallying on Zs side (and fair considring that the opposite is possible with masses of roaches rolling over toss)
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On August 08 2011 06:45 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:34 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:47 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it. In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all. No in other words, Terrans found a good allin that skewed the results, either the 1/1/1 gets nerfed or the Protoss firgure out how to hold, doesn't mean the game is fundamentally broken. The problem is that 1/1/1 is incredibly difficult to nerf (because none of the units in it are too strong on their own), it's been around since Beta, and Protosses still don't have a consistently effective response for it. The fact that Terran is just designed so well in how its units complement each other can constitute an argument for how the game is "fundamentally broken" - because the other two races aren't designed well enough in contrast. As Beyonder has said, this seems to be more of a design problem rather than a balance problem, and one could argue that a design problem constitutes "fundamental brokenness" because it can't be effectively fixed by just buffing or nerfing stuff - you need to change the matchup at its core, whether it means giving Protoss an effective harass unit as Dustin Browder said in an interview, or through some other means.
I could say the same about Col and Hts, I see every time in the late game the Terran over commits to either vikings or Ghosts and suffers because of it. The problem comes because Terran has to HARD counter Hts or col and when the Protoss switches until the Terran is caught without the correct comp, he loses his whole army and Protoss just uses warp gate rebuild his army and roll the Terrans production.
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Imagine Marauder/helion(instead of marines)/viking/ghost. DAMN that would be hard to face. Lets just hope T's don't think about that composition though  .
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On August 08 2011 06:54 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:49 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol no more QQing from NA terrans please. Everytime a terran tells me toss is op I tell them statistics say otherwise and terran will most likely get nerfed, but they think I'm lying lol. If they still think toss is OP I feel bad for when they get nerfed in the upcoming patch. Just keep in mind last month toss was winning 51.7% of the time vs terran globally ^^
That's more than a month ago, and it's not globally that's just international. Like I said, NA terrans are just lacking and their excuse is imbalance. If you look at Korea last month terran is still ahead of protoss full mu-wise and tvp-wise as well. Here's another thing to ponder:
Terran has been on TOP of the food chain for more than 7 months now (Since January) in Korea. And internationally it's been on top of the food chain for 7 months as well, except for June when it was tied with the other races.
Obviously when the system is skewed to make the statistics hit 50% and it's not happening, the race that comes out on top is generally easier to play OR overpowered.
And since this is happening moreso in Korea (where the "easier to play" factor is less because people spend a ton of time on this game and generally have all the time they need to overcome the "easier race" factors), this could only mean that the top race is simply overpowered.
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On August 08 2011 06:44 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:34 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:47 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it. In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all. No in other words, Terrans found a good allin that skewed the results, either the 1/1/1 gets nerfed or the Protoss firgure out how to hold, doesn't mean the game is fundamentally broken. I think the trend was for protoss to do a 1-2 gate robo expand, and 1/1/1 allin basically hard counters that because toss doesn't get enough econ or army to defend the push adequately. If you play like genius does, with one gate expand into heavy gateway early game (4-5) without cutting probes and getting twilight council for zealot charge, these pushes become a lot weaker, not saying it is easy but it is possible to beat.
Sure thing. And since when can gateways detect cloacked banshees? Not sure about the build and if theres a forge or something but without detection you will even lose against the banshee harrass coming before that attack.
Given how much you post against any imbalances seems like your scared of changes bro.
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On August 08 2011 07:10 NineteenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:54 Jesushooves wrote:On August 08 2011 06:49 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol no more QQing from NA terrans please. Everytime a terran tells me toss is op I tell them statistics say otherwise and terran will most likely get nerfed, but they think I'm lying lol. If they still think toss is OP I feel bad for when they get nerfed in the upcoming patch. Just keep in mind last month toss was winning 51.7% of the time vs terran globally ^^ That's more than a month ago, and it's not globally that's just international. Like I said, NA terrans are just lacking and their excuse is imbalance. If you look at Korea last month terran is still ahead of protoss full mu-wise and tvp-wise as well. Here's another thing to ponder: Terran has been on TOP of the food chain for more than 7 months now (Since January) in Korea. And internationally it's been on top of the food chain for 7 months as well, except for June when it was tied with the other races.
But this comes back to my original point - how many GOOD protoss are there in gsl? Like those at MVP, Nestea, Bomber, Losira, Dongraegu, MarineKing, Leenock, Nada - and many other zerg/terran - level of skill? Well I guess you could say MC and Huk and...well I can't think of anyone else other than Puzzle - who just won code A in a PvP finals!
I don't think any race should be qqing about imbalance tbh, we have puzzle winning code A - protoss success at homestory/dreamhack - terran success in mlg's - and zvz finals in code S. It seems any race can win if they put in the effort daily like koreans, and maybe a bit of raw talent.
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On August 08 2011 07:07 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:45 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 06:34 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:47 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it. In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all. No in other words, Terrans found a good allin that skewed the results, either the 1/1/1 gets nerfed or the Protoss firgure out how to hold, doesn't mean the game is fundamentally broken. The problem is that 1/1/1 is incredibly difficult to nerf (because none of the units in it are too strong on their own), it's been around since Beta, and Protosses still don't have a consistently effective response for it. The fact that Terran is just designed so well in how its units complement each other can constitute an argument for how the game is "fundamentally broken" - because the other two races aren't designed well enough in contrast. As Beyonder has said, this seems to be more of a design problem rather than a balance problem, and one could argue that a design problem constitutes "fundamental brokenness" because it can't be effectively fixed by just buffing or nerfing stuff - you need to change the matchup at its core, whether it means giving Protoss an effective harass unit as Dustin Browder said in an interview, or through some other means. I could say the same about Col and Hts, I see every time in the late game the Terran over commits to either vikings or Ghosts and suffers because of it. The problem comes because Terran has to HARD counter Hts or col and when the Protoss switches until the Terran is caught without the correct comp, he loses his whole army and Protoss just uses warp gate rebuild his army and roll the Terrans production.
What? Go read Beyonder's post. I don't think you understood what is meant by a design problem. In regards to your actual response, I don't see what you're describing happening all that often. Name some games in which that happens, because I can easily name tons of games in which 1-1-1 is wins the day easily.
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I think the trend was for protoss to do a 1-2 gate robo expand, and 1/1/1 allin basically hard counters that because toss doesn't get enough econ or army to defend the push adequately.
If you play like genius does, with one gate expand into heavy gateway early game (4-5) without cutting probes and getting twilight council for zealot charge, these pushes become a lot weaker, not saying it is easy but it is possible to beat.
Actually the trend is 1 gate expand like what Genius does. Terran simply has too many answers.
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On August 07 2011 09:51 Darclite wrote:
It's funny, I'm not as bothered as much by Protoss being weak as I am by people telling me how OP it is.
Agreed, especially after the terran tries something really annoying like a marine/tank/banshee push and loses
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On August 08 2011 07:03 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:52 rpgalon wrote:
and after a year, people still think that protoss is the best race and the protoss players are just bad... Terran players are just so much more skillful. You know how much apm and skill it takes to "multitask" a drop? It's so easy to defend drops. And then upgrades definitely do not help terran. 1-1 is terrible. I don't think a good terran should lose to a toss. Maybe a tweak to stalkers would do the trick. Only problem would be infinite stalker balls in PvZ but that's mre a matter of poor rallying on Zs side (and fair considring that the opposite is possible with masses of roaches rolling over toss)
How can you just say a race's player are more skillful?
I don't quite understand what you mean, when I play terran I find the initiator of a drop to have a MUCH easier time microing than the defender. As the defender, you must adjust to the size and effectiveness of the drop, whether is BFH or MM, and be constantly on lookout for the drop, as the dropper, you don't need to be on lookout for the drop, you're only looking at your own drop - trying to avoid hellions is harder than killing workers, and step micro isn't exactly micro intensive..
Its like trying to look for a criminal versus stealing a chocolate bar
Anyhow, looks like toss needs a bit of a buff in PvZ, and Z seems to be quite the underdog in TvZ lol.
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On August 08 2011 07:18 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 07:10 NineteenSC2 wrote:On August 08 2011 06:54 Jesushooves wrote:On August 08 2011 06:49 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol no more QQing from NA terrans please. Everytime a terran tells me toss is op I tell them statistics say otherwise and terran will most likely get nerfed, but they think I'm lying lol. If they still think toss is OP I feel bad for when they get nerfed in the upcoming patch. Just keep in mind last month toss was winning 51.7% of the time vs terran globally ^^ That's more than a month ago, and it's not globally that's just international. Like I said, NA terrans are just lacking and their excuse is imbalance. If you look at Korea last month terran is still ahead of protoss full mu-wise and tvp-wise as well. Here's another thing to ponder: Terran has been on TOP of the food chain for more than 7 months now (Since January) in Korea. And internationally itaeen on top of the food chain for 7 months as well, except for June when it was tied with the other races. But this comes back to my original point - how many GOOD protoss are there in gsl? Like those at MVP, Nestea, Bomber, Losira, Dongraegu, MarineKing, Leenock, Nada - and many other zerg/terran - level of skill? Well I guess you could say MC and Huk and...well I can't think of anyone else other than Puzzle - who just won code A in a PvP finals! I don't think any race should be qqing about imbalance tbh, we have puzzle winning code A - protoss success at homestory/dreamhack - terran success in mlg's - and zvz finals in code S. It seems any race can win if they put in the effort daily like koreans, and maybe a bit of raw talent.
I think it all comes down to fundamental problems in the protoss race and not the players playing the race. I think many problems arise with the lack of a harass unit, the stalker being strong early game but terrible later game, and the locking of detection in the robo facility. These coupled together force the protoss down a predictable road in which it is easy to take advantage of ie the 1/1/1 of terran.
I believe it is a problem with the race in general and not a balance issues that needs to be fixed with HOTS.
just my thoughts
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Everytime I'm watching a protoss stream and they match up with Sonkie on ladder I get depressed
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EPT
