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On August 08 2011 06:19 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 20:20 mholden02 wrote:On August 07 2011 20:12 VENDIZ wrote:
Protoss doing bad = bad players, race still OP.
Zerg doing bad = amazing players, race obviously broken.
Terran doing bad = lolwat? Korean Protoss are bad. Its 4 gate, 6 gate, 3 gate voidray, or DT's - EVERY GAME. Pick your cheese. Protoss late game is pretty good, to bad we never see it at GSL. As opposed to all the terrans doing 1/1/1 i dont see how its any different except for the fact that 1/1/1 is a better build and you hardly ever see any protoss go 4 gate or 6 gate anymore, and like someone else said dt expand is NOT a cheese. Show me some examples of how protoss are doing 4 gate or 6 gate everygame, sure we see some 3 gate voidray but it certainly isnt every gaame, and definitely not that often, we will see protoss players throw it in now and then in a best of 3 or 5 but its not nearly as prevalent as the 1/1/1 build. Speaking of 1 base builds though, i dont think anyone really explored IMSeeds gateway robo stargate build enough, with immortals void rays then transition into 4 gate to pump out more units while your pushing, if terran is expanding i think this build has alot of potential , even if they bunker up immortals and voidrays do pretty damn well against bunkers while zealots take the damage.
The gateway robo stargate has been around since December and it has not been used at all like it could be. Also since now there is a more focus on two base play(or more now than there was) I am surprised more dont go for one gate charge based builds. I think a major issue is the over use of sentries for early game protection that is more illusion than real vs Terran.
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On August 08 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 08:03 Szubie wrote:On August 08 2011 07:42 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 07:34 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 07:19 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 07:07 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 06:45 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 06:34 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:47 HolyArrow wrote:On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:
[quote]
You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it.
In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all. No in other words, Terrans found a good allin that skewed the results, either the 1/1/1 gets nerfed or the Protoss firgure out how to hold, doesn't mean the game is fundamentally broken. The problem is that 1/1/1 is incredibly difficult to nerf (because none of the units in it are too strong on their own), it's been around since Beta, and Protosses still don't have a consistently effective response for it. The fact that Terran is just designed so well in how its units complement each other can constitute an argument for how the game is "fundamentally broken" - because the other two races aren't designed well enough in contrast. As Beyonder has said, this seems to be more of a design problem rather than a balance problem, and one could argue that a design problem constitutes "fundamental brokenness" because it can't be effectively fixed by just buffing or nerfing stuff - you need to change the matchup at its core, whether it means giving Protoss an effective harass unit as Dustin Browder said in an interview, or through some other means. I could say the same about Col and Hts, I see every time in the late game the Terran over commits to either vikings or Ghosts and suffers because of it. The problem comes because Terran has to HARD counter Hts or col and when the Protoss switches until the Terran is caught without the correct comp, he loses his whole army and Protoss just uses warp gate rebuild his army and roll the Terrans production. What? Go read Beyonder's post. I don't think you understood what is meant by a design problem. In regards to your actual response, I don't see what you're describing happening all that often. Name some games in which that happens, because I can easily name tons of games in which 1-1-1 is wins the day easily. Nani vs ThorZain EU blizz invite, and I can't think of the other series off the top of my head, I know it was an Assembly game So... you can name two games. Doesn't sound like a huge or widespread issue to me. I'll name you plenty of games in which 1-1-1 wins the day if you want, but I'm sure you already know of them if you follow the GSL. Naniwa Thorzain had an element of that as well. It is more prevalent than you think, as in every endgame TvP the colossus/ht switch and gateway flood has to be considered. It's just that these later game scenarios are rarer because usually the games end before them, for now anyway. Whether that means it's less of a problem or not depends I guess. After all, perhaps terran taking into account these late game problems helps shift terran game strategy into all-ins and timing attacks vs p to avoid ending up in this situation. As a sidenote, protoss favored maps in tvp are often the large ones, like Terminus RE, Tal'Darim Altar, which could be a combination of the difficulty terran would find in ending the game quickly, and this late game situation terran finds itself in. Maybe a 1/1/1 problem might take precedance for a fix for now though, what with it being so common to see, but it would be wrong to ignore every other 'clunky' aspect of the match-up imo. Funny that you mention it, in Korean TLPD both TDA and Terminus are almost perfectly balanced, with Terran ahead by 1-2%. Edit: The same is true for International TLPD, so I don't understand where you get your "Protoss favored" qualification for them. That aside, I just don't believe in these lategame TvP woes. Or at least I won't until I see Terran constantly dropping and sending small groups of bio at expansions on large maps, as well as getting mass orbitals and a 170 supply army, and then still losing to Protoss tech switches. And we'll never find out anyway if Terrans just keep winning with all-ins. For the record, this is the same excuse Terran players used to justify their constant all-ins during the early GSLs. They said they had to do it because they couldn't compete with Zerg lategame. Funny how that turned out. Terrans have been doing fine without using the all-in. They use it now because it makes for easy wins against more skilled opponents, nothing more.
Hm, not sure why we have different stats, I'll link my two sources.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/423_Tal'Darim_Altar/games/TvP
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/422_Terminus_RE/games/TvP
What are yours?
And yes, there definately still is some room for terran to expand and experiment late game, that's true. Game's still young and all that. After we sort out confusion of stats, maybe we can conclude whether in the current meta-game at least, late game tvp favors P :p.
But the 'excuse' about not letting zerg get into a comfy late game still kind of holds true even nowadays in tvz, with David Kim even saying that blizzard was watching the broodlord/infestor composition in tvz in particular. Whether they'll find it necessary to do something is a different question, but still.
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On August 08 2011 08:21 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 07:39 NineteenSC2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Terran players are just so much more skillful. You know how much apm and skill it takes to "multitask" a drop? It's so easy to defend drops. And then upgrades definitely do not help terran. 1-1 is terrible. I don't think a good terran should lose to a toss.
Maybe a tweak to stalkers would do the trick. Only problem would be infinite stalker balls in PvZ but that's mre a matter of poor rallying on Zs side (and fair considring that the opposite is possible with masses of roaches rolling over toss)
Your statement is very weird. There's no way terran players can be more skilled on a general scale. There's just no way that 1/3rd of the higher-skilled sc2 population decided to play terran. The fact of the matter is either that the race is i) easier or ii) overpowered If it were easier then Korean statistics would show that terran is at 50% (because Koreans play a lot and can play "harder" races just as good as "easier" But the statistics show otherwise, which means it's simply overpowered. On top of that drops are MUCH easier done than dealt with. You simply shift queue your units and your opponent has to react. Not to mention protoss armies are good in bulk, whereas terran armies are extremely effective in small numbers as well as large. (4 marauders + medivac can wreck havoc, whereas 4 stalkers would never accomplish much whatsoever). Upgrades help all races.. I don't know where you're getting this. Terran has some of the highest dps units (marines... marauders) and upgrades just make them so much more effective. Notice when terrans land good emps a tosses army just vanishes? Which brings me to my next point. High templars simply do damage with psionic storm (which is a research skill and you have to wait for energy) Ghosts on the other hand makes sentries absolutely useless, high templars absolutely useless, and on top of that instant shields gone. Point being, even if you miss the casters, you've still done all you needed. Now we understand that ghosts > high templars by far. What's more is the skill level required to each unit varies by far as well. A protoss has to first know where the ghosts are coming from with some kind of detection (observers, which are extremely easily spotted and scanned in higher level gaems). The protoss than has to split his high templars and feedback the ghosts in a 200/200 ball where they're extremely hard to find ( not to mention they're skinnier than marines and medivacs cover them). A terran has to simply lay down a scan, (late game terrans have so many orbitals, and therefore scans) which a protoss can do absolutely nothing about but feel scared due to his opponent having every single bit of map info he needs. A terran than has to simply emp as much as he can (he should already have the positioning advantage because he can scan as much as he wants, pretty much a maphack on your opponents army). Now a protoss player who doesn't split his high templars loses automatically, one who does split his hts still loses because EMP is an AoE skill. What should really be is emp only takes off shields, and have some other method of "pont and click" skill to remove energy. Protoss essentially relies on tanky core units & casters. When there's one unit in the terran arsenal who can effectively take out both with little to no skill requirement (AoE + instant + ranged) than it's very hard for protoss. Now just look at the skill difference needed to use a ghost compared to a ht . This is a very long winded way of saying "ZOMG TERRAN OP!" Your biased view is pretty apparent and it is painful to read; you COMPLETELY dismiss the presence of STRATEGY in an RTS game and every win or loss must therefore be attributed to balance. I am glad that you have the brainpower to determine that terran is "simply overpowered" - i just think back a couple weeks and protoss was "simply overpowered" .. There is obviously no point in arguing with you because all you will do is whine about balance; or say some rhetoric like "nerf EMP" Anyway - i really enjoyed reading the graphs, it's great to see the database translated into a visual format with some really interesting results. The Terran skew i think has a fair amount to do with new strategies that other races simply haven't figured out how exactly to handle yet - 1/1/1 for example. Everyone is very quick to yell something is OP before waiting for the people who devote their lives to this game to figure out a counter strategy.
Hasn't 1-1-1 been around for quite a long time?
Anyway, the graph has pretty much been Terran favored, or, at least, neutral for Terran since September (hell, the only time they've ever dipped below 50% overall was for a brief time in november), which shows that Terran has been either been comfortable or ahead in the metagame since then. What does that say about the design of Terran compared to that of other races if, since September, Terran has never really been getting owned in any matchup (besides PvT for a short time, and then KA got patched soon after)? What does it say when Terran has never really had trouble figuring out how to deal with the strategies of other races, yet is able to periodically give other races trouble with their own new strategies? That, to me, indicates design flaws in the inequality of how Terran's good design lends it to such great stability and variety of powerful strategies in comparison to other races.
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Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. They allow you to harass, but more importantly they allow you to create ~30 supply of zealots instantly, anywhere. Zealots with charge and passive 4 armour. It's pretty fucking good.
Give protoss a harass unit in HoTS, give Zerg a defensive unit or buff queens. Then everyone stfu for 6 months and figure it out.
Once they "fix" the glaring weaknesses in Protoss and Zerg, Terran will be the hardest race to play. Again :D.
I shall enjoy my podium.
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On August 08 2011 08:39 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 08:21 bkrow wrote:On August 08 2011 07:39 NineteenSC2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Terran players are just so much more skillful. You know how much apm and skill it takes to "multitask" a drop? It's so easy to defend drops. And then upgrades definitely do not help terran. 1-1 is terrible. I don't think a good terran should lose to a toss.
Maybe a tweak to stalkers would do the trick. Only problem would be infinite stalker balls in PvZ but that's mre a matter of poor rallying on Zs side (and fair considring that the opposite is possible with masses of roaches rolling over toss)
Your statement is very weird. There's no way terran players can be more skilled on a general scale. There's just no way that 1/3rd of the higher-skilled sc2 population decided to play terran. The fact of the matter is either that the race is i) easier or ii) overpowered If it were easier then Korean statistics would show that terran is at 50% (because Koreans play a lot and can play "harder" races just as good as "easier" But the statistics show otherwise, which means it's simply overpowered. On top of that drops are MUCH easier done than dealt with. You simply shift queue your units and your opponent has to react. Not to mention protoss armies are good in bulk, whereas terran armies are extremely effective in small numbers as well as large. (4 marauders + medivac can wreck havoc, whereas 4 stalkers would never accomplish much whatsoever). Upgrades help all races.. I don't know where you're getting this. Terran has some of the highest dps units (marines... marauders) and upgrades just make them so much more effective. Notice when terrans land good emps a tosses army just vanishes? Which brings me to my next point. High templars simply do damage with psionic storm (which is a research skill and you have to wait for energy) Ghosts on the other hand makes sentries absolutely useless, high templars absolutely useless, and on top of that instant shields gone. Point being, even if you miss the casters, you've still done all you needed. Now we understand that ghosts > high templars by far. What's more is the skill level required to each unit varies by far as well. A protoss has to first know where the ghosts are coming from with some kind of detection (observers, which are extremely easily spotted and scanned in higher level gaems). The protoss than has to split his high templars and feedback the ghosts in a 200/200 ball where they're extremely hard to find ( not to mention they're skinnier than marines and medivacs cover them). A terran has to simply lay down a scan, (late game terrans have so many orbitals, and therefore scans) which a protoss can do absolutely nothing about but feel scared due to his opponent having every single bit of map info he needs. A terran than has to simply emp as much as he can (he should already have the positioning advantage because he can scan as much as he wants, pretty much a maphack on your opponents army). Now a protoss player who doesn't split his high templars loses automatically, one who does split his hts still loses because EMP is an AoE skill. What should really be is emp only takes off shields, and have some other method of "pont and click" skill to remove energy. Protoss essentially relies on tanky core units & casters. When there's one unit in the terran arsenal who can effectively take out both with little to no skill requirement (AoE + instant + ranged) than it's very hard for protoss. Now just look at the skill difference needed to use a ghost compared to a ht . This is a very long winded way of saying "ZOMG TERRAN OP!" Your biased view is pretty apparent and it is painful to read; you COMPLETELY dismiss the presence of STRATEGY in an RTS game and every win or loss must therefore be attributed to balance. I am glad that you have the brainpower to determine that terran is "simply overpowered" - i just think back a couple weeks and protoss was "simply overpowered" .. There is obviously no point in arguing with you because all you will do is whine about balance; or say some rhetoric like "nerf EMP" Anyway - i really enjoyed reading the graphs, it's great to see the database translated into a visual format with some really interesting results. The Terran skew i think has a fair amount to do with new strategies that other races simply haven't figured out how exactly to handle yet - 1/1/1 for example. Everyone is very quick to yell something is OP before waiting for the people who devote their lives to this game to figure out a counter strategy. Hasn't 1-1-1 been around for quite a long time? Anyway, the graph has pretty much been Terran favored, or, at least, neutral for Terran since September (hell, the only time they've ever dipped below 50% overall was for a brief time in november), which shows that Terran has been either been comfortable or ahead in the metagame since then. What does that say about the design of Terran compared to that of other races if, since September, Terran has never really been getting owned in any matchup (besides PvT for a short time, and then KA got patched soon after)? What does it say when Terran has never really had trouble figuring out how to deal with the strategies of other races, yet is able to periodically give other races trouble with their own new strategies? That, to me, indicates design flaws in the inequality of how Terran's good design lends it to such great stability and variety of powerful strategies in comparison to other races.
Yes the 1-1-1 has been there since beta. However it is how the new 1-1-1 v Protoss is a combination of two other builds the marine siege tank build and the marine banshee raven builds. It effectivly stops most of what Protoss can do with the pdd and tank splash.
I also agree that there is an inequality of how well Terran was made. Since the other two races require more time and or money to get the variety of units that is not a easy to scout.
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On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms.
Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped 
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On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. They allow you to harass, but more importantly they allow you to create ~30 supply of zealots instantly, anywhere. Zealots with charge and passive 4 armour. It's pretty fucking good.
Give protoss a harass unit in HoTS, give Zerg a defensive unit or buff queens. Then everyone stfu for 6 months and figure it out.
Once they "fix" the glaring weaknesses in Protoss and Zerg, Terran will be the hardest race to play. Again :D.
I shall enjoy my podium.
~ 30 supply of Zealots is 15 warpgates. Unless it it the late game with armies close to max that wont happen or the Protoss has been building only warpgates all game and been pushing it for this in the mid game.
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On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped
Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies.
I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1?
Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses.
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On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies.I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses.
Yeah, you're right. Why try anything new when you can just sulk in a corner with a defeatist attitude? It's sooooooooooo much easier than trying to do anything original or difficult.
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Warp prisms are actually only slightly weaker than a medivac. 10 less HP, 1 less armor. I think the main problem arises from how the units Protoss has to drop with just are far less efficient in terms of being able to kill workers - Stalkers kill them too slowly, workers can just run away from Zealots, and once the MM gets there to defend the drop, you have to run away, since stimmed MM will destroy a small Stalker/Zealot group if microed well. The medivac complements the Terran drop by healing the bio that it drops. The Warp Prism can complement a drop by warping in more units, but if your Warp Prism was full to begin with, you're not leaving with everything - you'd have to leave some units behind. I'd certainly be open to some sort of drop involving Sentries and Zealots so workers can't escape, though, and I think that needs to be explored more.
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On August 08 2011 09:43 HolyArrow wrote:
Warp prisms are actually only slightly weaker than a medivac. 10 less HP, 1 less armor. I think the main problem arises from how the units Protoss has to drop with just are far less efficient in terms of being able to kill workers - Stalkers kill them too slowly, workers can just run away from Zealots, and once the MM gets there to defend the drop, you have to run away, since stimmed MM will destroy a small Stalker/Zealot group if microed well. The medivac complements the Terran drop by healing the bio that it drops. The Warp Prism can complement a drop by warping in more units, but if your Warp Prism was full to begin with, you're not leaving with everything - you'd have to leave some units behind. I'd certainly be open to some sort of drop involving Sentries and Zealots so workers can't escape, though, and I think that needs to be explored more.
Yeah have been doing that. It is quite effective however you need more force fields then you think to trap the scvs/drones. So if you don't kill a-lot of workers you will have lost alot more gas/minerals then the opponent. The thing is as you said that Protoss units are far less efficient against workers.
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On August 08 2011 05:47 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:30 kodas wrote:On August 08 2011 05:22 Yaotzin wrote:On August 08 2011 05:00 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
holy hell and people call zerg the whiner race D: ? This is nothing compared to the endless streams of Zerg whine that happened over the months, despite Protoss currently being nearly as shit as Zerg was at their worst (scv allin, 2proxy gate, close positions etc etc). Dunno if it's even whine when it's so obvious subjectively (watch GSL vPs and laugh), and is also reflected in the data. Protoss is just shitty. You whine an awful lot, I see you in LR thread all the time complaining about everything really, Protoss isn't doing terrible everywhere but Korea. Quit exasperating it. In other words, Protoss is doing terrible in the only place that really matters, if we accept Korea as representing the highest levels of play. The big difference between Protoss whining and Zerg whining is that Protoss have fallacious myths about being OP/easy to play associated with them, which amplifies the annoyance people feel when Protoss performs badly in how it adds insult to injury from the sheer contradiction of it all.
This imo - when majority of toss players are struggling and still they get their race called OP/easy to play, its just pretty infuriating. Is toss right now as weak as zerg was in the first few months? maybe, maybe not, but one things for sure is that I know pretty much nobody ever beat them down further by calling zerg too strong/easy to play back when they lost often. In the end, I guess it would just be nice if non-protoss players finally give the recognition that it does take a ton of skill to play protoss at a high level.
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I play random but I still feel protoss are seriously underpowered vs a competent T. In my experience there are several ways PvT can go:
1) Both players are bad, so terran rolls toss in the early game with a marauder heavy army
2) Both players are bad but toss has learnt early defence, toss survives to late game and rolls terran
3) Both players are ok, and its on a dice roll, later the game gets more chance toss has vs Bio balls, more likely to lose to mech
4) Both players are pros, and the pattern of gateway units into collossi into high templar is so predictable T gets vikings in time for collossi meaning close defeat for toss army, tech switch to templar predicted with tech switch to ghost, good EMPs for an absolute facerolling
5) Both pros, mistimed tech switch, storms land and smush terrans face.
The matchup is so knife edge compared to other MUs (1 or 2 storms vs 1 or 2 emps literally decides most high level games) that the win rate is erratic, but unfortunately its more often the case that terrans get the easy win cos EMP is easier to use than feedback (higher health unit with cloak plus AoE not target...) i feel some changes to EMP would sort this out, even when I use it as T I feel like its too good...perhaps make the damage to shields the same but the AoE mana drain smaller, I don't know, I'd hate to be in charge of balance, its near impossible to get right haha.
On August 08 2011 09:39 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies.I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Yeah, you're right. Why try anything new when you can just sulk in a corner with a defeatist attitude? It's sooooooooooo much easier than trying to do anything original or difficult.
Or you could start playing toss or random and see what its like? I play random, and the whines (not that protoss have ever really been whining despite win rate stats) are justified. Terran drops are far better, and even dustin browder acknowledges terran are far more "complete", as he puts it, than the other races, they are versatile and strong. Not necessarily OP, but just...better designed. Warp prism drops just suck, especially after storm nerf, and prisms take up valuable robo build time, since without immortals/collossi in early robo based games terrans stomp toss. Once HotS comes out, if toss get a raider/harass unit like browder was saying, this issue may be solved. You try make warp prisms work vs a decent T...
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On August 07 2011 09:41 ZappaSC wrote:
Wow that looks crazy... what have the terrans learned since last month that i have completly missed? o.O
Blue Flame Hellions
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On August 08 2011 09:39 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies.I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Yeah, you're right. Why try anything new when you can just sulk in a corner with a defeatist attitude? It's sooooooooooo much easier than trying to do anything original or difficult.
Classic, the argument that is unbeatable. Just do better. Be more creative. That can be good, but no one has figured out how yet. Just find a way to use the flying-transport filled with expensive units against the races with the strongest, cheapest anti-air unit in the game. Stop whining and take this unit that everyone says is pretty bad and make it good.
If the argument were more like - I think protoss could slip a warp prism in between colossi. It may not be as awesome as medivac drops, but it would force the terran to leave units a home. I could argue against this and its not worth the price and risk of the additional units. But the argument above, not much useful or helpful.
Its like the first argument. Try using warp prisms.
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On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses.
it almost reminds me of when protoss told zergs to use nydus...
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On August 08 2011 10:13 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 09:41 ZappaSC wrote:
Wow that looks crazy... what have the terrans learned since last month that i have completly missed? o.O Blue Flame Hellions
They were quite the show at MLG.
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On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses.
Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even?
Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded.
A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often.
I suggest you start practicing creative play.
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On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play.
I recommend you read at least some of the thread before you post your opinion.
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On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play.
Did you notice the gas costs and tech requirements of the units you just listed? Yes those are interesting ideas, and all of them have been tried. (some successfully, like DTs) Unfortunately these are all late game tactics that are very costly, and therefore risky, and usually will end up with the toss losing more than they kill. Compare them to dropping marines or banes, which do huge damage if not noticed immediately, and cost very little. Yes warp prisms can be used for some things, but loading up a colossus into a speed prism is not going to be nearly as effective as dropping 8 marines out of a medivac. We need something a toss can drop early that costs a reasonable amount and is effective at harassing.
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EPT
