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On August 08 2011 09:43 HolyArrow wrote:
Warp prisms are actually only slightly weaker than a medivac. 10 less HP, 1 less armor. I think the main problem arises from how the units Protoss has to drop with just are far less efficient in terms of being able to kill workers - Stalkers kill them too slowly, workers can just run away from Zealots, and once the MM gets there to defend the drop, you have to run away, since stimmed MM will destroy a small Stalker/Zealot group if microed well. The medivac complements the Terran drop by healing the bio that it drops. The Warp Prism can complement a drop by warping in more units, but if your Warp Prism was full to begin with, you're not leaving with everything - you'd have to leave some units behind. I'd certainly be open to some sort of drop involving Sentries and Zealots so workers can't escape, though, and I think that needs to be explored more.
The problem with warp prisms is that 3 stimmed marines (without any other upgrades) will kill a warp prism that is already in phase mode before anything warps in. And, like you say... nothing that protoss has that comes from them is really THAT dangerous... or is too expensive for a suicide mission.
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To me, PvZ looks like zerg dominates protoss, then protoss figures out some new sick build, timing or gimmicky thing and dominates zerg. Then after a little bit of time, zerg figures out that strat and goes back to dominating protoss. And so the cycle seems to repeat.
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On August 08 2011 11:13 Suc wrote:
To me, PvZ looks like zerg dominates protoss, then protoss figures out some new sick build, timing or gimmicky thing and dominates zerg. Then after a little bit of time, zerg figures out that strat and goes back to dominating protoss. And so the cycle seems to repeat.
Yeah. And it's the same in TvZ, like the new BFH style is what making the TvZ ratio going out of the 50% balance again.
And that's pretty much why i think zerg is the best race in the game, because when zerg will have every timings figured out, i don't know what terran, and specialy protoss will play. :o
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On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. They allow you to harass, but more importantly they allow you to create ~30 supply of zealots instantly, anywhere. Zealots with charge and passive 4 armour. It's pretty fucking good.
Give protoss a harass unit in HoTS, give Zerg a defensive unit or buff queens. Then everyone stfu for 6 months and figure it out.
Once they "fix" the glaring weaknesses in Protoss and Zerg, Terran will be the hardest race to play. Again :D.
I shall enjoy my podium.
30 supply of zealots.
Wat?
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On August 08 2011 11:13 Suc wrote:
To me, PvZ looks like zerg dominates protoss, then protoss figures out some new sick build, timing or gimmicky thing and dominates zerg. Then after a little bit of time, zerg figures out that strat and goes back to dominating protoss. And so the cycle seems to repeat.
Well is still think that infestor is overpowered. It has 3 ofesive, pretty strong spells, and Fungal on top of that stuns you and deals HUGE dmg.
Don't get me wrong, I'm playing zerg, but it just deals huge dmg and stuns you at the same time
Infested terrans are sick as well.
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On August 08 2011 11:15 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 11:13 Suc wrote:
To me, PvZ looks like zerg dominates protoss, then protoss figures out some new sick build, timing or gimmicky thing and dominates zerg. Then after a little bit of time, zerg figures out that strat and goes back to dominating protoss. And so the cycle seems to repeat. Yeah. And it's the same in TvZ, like the new BFH style is what making the TvZ ratio going out of the 50% balance again. And that's pretty much why i think zerg is the best race in the game, because when zerg will have every timings figured out, i don't know what terran, and specialy protoss will play. :o
Terran has always, since the release of SC2, been stronger than zerg.
The fact that it took them a year to be forced to make hellions, ravens, thors, etc is pretty interesting 
The "new builds" they find like BFH/marine lifts actually put them in the 55-60% win rate range, not 50%.
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Undoubtedly man people have said this before me, but it makes me laugh. Especially since the majority of people who lose to me scream Protoss is a cheesy stupid and micro/macro-less overpowered race.
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On August 08 2011 10:59 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped  Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. I recommend you read at least some of the thread before you post your opinion.
I recommend you realize my response was towards his post. Point is, late game Protoss drop play has more potential compared to Terran late game dropping.
On August 08 2011 11:04 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. Did you notice the gas costs and tech requirements of the units you just listed? Yes those are interesting ideas, and all of them have been tried. (some successfully, like DTs) Unfortunately these are all late game tactics that are very costly, and therefore risky, and usually will end up with the toss losing more than they kill. Compare them to dropping marines or banes, which do huge damage if not noticed immediately, and cost very little. Yes warp prisms can be used for some things, but loading up a colossus into a speed prism is not going to be nearly as effective as dropping 8 marines out of a medivac. We need something a toss can drop early that costs a reasonable amount and is effective at harassing.
Early drop play is not hard to stop.
Templars can wipe out 20+ SCVs and load up and escape in an instant. Archons with proper upgrades will annihilate a worker line pretty fast (could even use sentry incorporation into drops). It's not like a Protoss player wouldn't at least leave a cannon or a unit by their mineral line, right?
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I don't think Terran needs nerfs so much as the other races need to be reworked. No Terran unit by itself is truly OP, however they have a ton of options and a larger number of possible strategies and unit combos that work. Protoss and Zerg aren't nearly as flexible, but it's difficult to buff their units because they are pretty balanced by themselves and a buff to any one unit which fixes a certain problem could easily be imbalanced somewhere else. I think Blizzard knows this (which is why they haven't really done too much) and will try and remedy it with new units and upgrades in HoTS to allow for more options.
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On August 08 2011 11:18 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 10:59 Sabu113 wrote:On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. I recommend you read at least some of the thread before you post your opinion. I recommend you realize my response was towards his post. Point is, late game Protoss drop play has more potential compared to Terran late game dropping. Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 11:04 Fig wrote:On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. Did you notice the gas costs and tech requirements of the units you just listed? Yes those are interesting ideas, and all of them have been tried. (some successfully, like DTs) Unfortunately these are all late game tactics that are very costly, and therefore risky, and usually will end up with the toss losing more than they kill. Compare them to dropping marines or banes, which do huge damage if not noticed immediately, and cost very little. Yes warp prisms can be used for some things, but loading up a colossus into a speed prism is not going to be nearly as effective as dropping 8 marines out of a medivac. We need something a toss can drop early that costs a reasonable amount and is effective at harassing. Early drop play is not hard to stop. Templars can wipe out 20+ SCVs and load up and escape in an instant. Archons with proper upgrades will annihilate a worker line pretty fast (could even use sentry incorporation into drops). It's not like a Protoss player wouldn't at least leave a cannon or a unit by their mineral line, right?
umm I guess you didn't read my post, since your response has nothing to do with it.
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On August 08 2011 11:29 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 11:18 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 10:59 Sabu113 wrote:On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. I recommend you read at least some of the thread before you post your opinion. I recommend you realize my response was towards his post. Point is, late game Protoss drop play has more potential compared to Terran late game dropping. On August 08 2011 11:04 Fig wrote:On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. Did you notice the gas costs and tech requirements of the units you just listed? Yes those are interesting ideas, and all of them have been tried. (some successfully, like DT s) Unfortunately these are all late game tactics that are very costly, and therefore risky, and usually will end up with the toss losing more than they kill. Compare them to dropping marines or banes, which do huge damage if not noticed immediately, and cost very little. Yes warp prisms can be used for some things, but loading up a colossus into a speed prism is not going to be nearly as effective as dropping 8 marines out of a medivac. We need something a toss can drop early that costs a reasonable amount and is effective at harassing. Early drop play is not hard to stop. Templars can wipe out 20+ SCVs and load up and escape in an instant. Archons with proper upgrades will annihilate a worker line pretty fast (could even use sentry incorporation into drops). It's not like a Protoss player wouldn't at least leave a cannon or a unit by their mineral line, right? umm I guess you didn't read my post, since your response has nothing to do with it.
Let me break things down for you then so you can understand it in fact does.
I replied early drop play is not hard to stop in regards to your last comment. Protoss can do early drop play ( though certainly not as well as Terran drop play).
The second paragraph responded to your comment basically saying that dropping archons/HTs/etc. was very 'costly' and 'risky'. 1 archon is 100 Minerals, 300 gas (or 2 HT is 100 Minerals, 300 gas). The amount of damage HTs can do VS a marine drop later on in the game is quite different (obviously storm>scvs). A marine/medivac drop requires more minerals (500 Minerals, 100 gas) which is less gas, but is also much more easier to snipe. Protoss could have blink/phoenix, while medivacs are exceptionally slow (though warp prisms aren't that fast without speed upgrade). A solid Protoss player would have put pylons in key positions (if they have no observers) to catch medivacs with marines. Running away your probes from marines is much easier than running from a fast storm.
Point being, Protoss is not a race that relies on drop play,in most games (though they very much could use it to their advantage). Warp-in, placing cannons are all simple useful methods of responding to drops, or simple positioning of observers on the map. A Protoss player does not need to rely on drops, but rather invest in tech. Terran uses drops to try to out-macro their opponent as a result of attempting economic damage. But against any decent player, an 8-marine medivac drop should never really see more than 7-10 probe kills.
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On August 08 2011 11:44 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 11:29 Fig wrote:On August 08 2011 11:18 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 10:59 Sabu113 wrote:On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. I recommend you read at least some of the thread before you post your opinion. I recommend you realize my response was towards his post. Point is, late game Protoss drop play has more potential compared to Terran late game dropping. On August 08 2011 11:04 Fig wrote:On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. Did you notice the gas costs and tech requirements of the units you just listed? Yes those are interesting ideas, and all of them have been tried. (some successfully, like DT s) Unfortunately these are all late game tactics that are very costly, and therefore risky, and usually will end up with the toss losing more than they kill. Compare them to dropping marines or banes, which do huge damage if not noticed immediately, and cost very little. Yes warp prisms can be used for some things, but loading up a colossus into a speed prism is not going to be nearly as effective as dropping 8 marines out of a medivac. We need something a toss can drop early that costs a reasonable amount and is effective at harassing. Early drop play is not hard to stop. Templars can wipe out 20+ SCVs and load up and escape in an instant. Archons with proper upgrades will annihilate a worker line pretty fast (could even use sentry incorporation into drops). It's not like a Protoss player wouldn't at least leave a cannon or a unit by their mineral line, right? umm I guess you didn't read my post, since your response has nothing to do with it. Let me break things down for you then so you can understand it in fact does. I replied early drop play is not hard to stop in regards to your last comment. Protoss can do early drop play ( though certainly not as well as Terran drop play). The second paragraph responded to your comment basically saying that dropping archons/HTs/etc. was very 'costly' and 'risky'. 1 archon is 100 Minerals, 300 gas (or 2 HT is 100 Minerals, 300 gas). The amount of damage HTs can do VS a marine drop later on in the game is quite different (obviously storm>scvs). A marine/medivac drop requires more minerals (500 Minerals, 100 gas) which is less gas, but is also much more easier to snipe. Protoss could have blink/phoenix, while medivacs are exceptionally slow (though warp prisms aren't that fast without speed upgrade). A solid Protoss player would have put pylons in key positions (if they have no observers) to catch medivacs with marines. Running away your probes from marines is much easier than running from a fast storm. Point being, Protoss is not a race that relies on drop play,in most games (though they very much could use it to their advantage). Warp-in, placing cannons are all simple useful methods of responding to drops, or simple positioning of observers on the map. A Protoss player does not need to rely on drops, but rather invest in tech. Terran uses drops to try to out-macro their opponent as a result of attempting economic damage. But against any decent player, an 8-marine medivac drop should never really see more than 7-10 probe kills.
So does protoss not rely on drop play because they don't need it? Or did have they not used drop play because they haven't figured out a way to make it effective? I am not seeing anything useful in your comments. Its mostly just, "look I added it up and its effective." What most protoss are saying is the early and mid game units aren't worth dropping, mostly because their DSP isn't high to quickly do damage and then leave. The late game units can be effective, but the terrans economy is so robust at that point, losing 10-15 works isn't as crippling.
Also, if 8 marines kills 7-10 probes, the drop paid for itself. Unless you lose the medivac, which is avoidable.
So maybe the warp prism is fine, but the units protoss can drop early and mid game aren't that great at the job.
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On August 08 2011 11:44 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 11:29 Fig wrote:On August 08 2011 11:18 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 10:59 Sabu113 wrote:On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. I recommend you read at least some of the thread before you post your opinion. I recommend you realize my response was towards his post. Point is, late game Protoss drop play has more potential compared to Terran late game dropping. On August 08 2011 11:04 Fig wrote:On August 08 2011 10:54 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 08 2011 09:32 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2011 08:58 Darclite wrote:On August 08 2011 08:45 Techno wrote:
Terran is definetly better designed than the other 2 races. With the new chargelot/armour upgrade focus toss, I see no reason for Protoss balance whines. Try using warp prisms. Sorry, I was reading what you said but the warp prism died so I stopped Little known fact, clicking on warp prisms kills them too. Also, if a marine thinks about a warp prism, it dies. I love when terrans comment saying that Protoss "should just use more war prisms". Like everyone hasn't been trying. What should we load up in them? 4 zealots? 2 zealots and 2 stalkers? 2 immortals? Do any of those unit combinations sound scary? Do any of them sound like 8 stimmed marines with +1? Seriously, we would all like to use more warp prisms. Sadly, they are very limited in the current meta game and don't have a lot of uses. Because late game you can't use them to warp in DTs (or units period), do hit and run with storm, drop archons, drop a Colossus even? Not to mention they are EXTREMELY fast with the speed boost upgraded. A while back nobody use to use pure Mech in TvT. Now you see it quite often. I suggest you start practicing creative play. Did you notice the gas costs and tech requirements of the units you just listed? Yes those are interesting ideas, and all of them have been tried. (some successfully, like DT s) Unfortunately these are all late game tactics that are very costly, and therefore risky, and usually will end up with the toss losing more than they kill. Compare them to dropping marines or banes, which do huge damage if not noticed immediately, and cost very little. Yes warp prisms can be used for some things, but loading up a colossus into a speed prism is not going to be nearly as effective as dropping 8 marines out of a medivac. We need something a toss can drop early that costs a reasonable amount and is effective at harassing. Early drop play is not hard to stop. Templars can wipe out 20+ SCVs and load up and escape in an instant. Archons with proper upgrades will annihilate a worker line pretty fast (could even use sentry incorporation into drops). It's not like a Protoss player wouldn't at least leave a cannon or a unit by their mineral line, right? umm I guess you didn't read my post, since your response has nothing to do with it. Let me break things down for you then so you can understand it in fact does. I replied early drop play is not hard to stop in regards to your last comment. Protoss can do early drop play ( though certainly not as well as Terran drop play). The second paragraph responded to your comment basically saying that dropping archons/HTs/etc. was very 'costly' and 'risky'. 1 archon is 100 Minerals, 300 gas (or 2 HT is 100 Minerals, 300 gas). The amount of damage HTs can do VS a marine drop later on in the game is quite different (obviously storm>scvs). A marine/medivac drop requires more minerals (500 Minerals, 100 gas) which is less gas, but is also much more easier to snipe. Protoss could have blink/phoenix, while medivacs are exceptionally slow (though warp prisms aren't that fast without speed upgrade). A solid Protoss player would have put pylons in key positions (if they have no observers) to catch medivacs with marines. Running away your probes from marines is much easier than running from a fast storm. Point being, Protoss is not a race that relies on drop play,in most games (though they very much could use it to their advantage). Warp-in, placing cannons are all simple useful methods of responding to drops, or simple positioning of observers on the map. A Protoss player does not need to rely on drops, but rather invest in tech. Terran uses drops to try to out-macro their opponent as a result of attempting economic damage. But against any decent player, an 8-marine medivac drop should never really see more than 7-10 probe kills.
I know you're probably going to get defensive (and I'm not going to comment on game balance), but your analysis of dropping in the past few posts has been very wrong.
Specifically what is flawed is your talk about ht drops.
1) That's a suicide mission. It's got to be late game for an HT drop (or terr will just roll you), and then terr will likely have vikings either because you went coli, or if you went templar he'll be expecting the colli switch.
2) When you compare ht and marine/mar drops you ignore the fact that hts can't attack buildings. If you run your probes, he kills your tech. If terr gets ht dropped, he runs his scvs and you pick up and leave or you lose your wp and temp.
3) Templars in sc2 do not tear up scv lines. You don't need great reaction time to avoid the storm. SCVs can sit under, chill, then run away. Also, b/c of the way scvs mine they actually have to leave and reenter the storm.
Not saying HT drops don't work (if you're getting a shuttle to avoid EMP, and that shuttle happens upon a mineral line it can be ok), but just your analysis of them and comparison to T drops is wrong.
And don't talk about dropping coli. It's one per wp, and they can't kill scvs b/c of the way their damage works now. You probably weren't being serious, but you gave people who disagree with you a huge opp to just point and laugh. Let me get this straight, you're going rob and coli. This means he's going to get a fleet of vikings. Then you try and coli drop? That's a horrible idea.
Also, solid protoss can't always have obs and pylons around the map. I'm sure you know about the rob issue. Can't build obs and coli at the same time. And if you don't have map control, you can't hve pylons on the map. Just that simple.
Basically, I'm not telling you P drops can't work (DT warp ins are good). And I'm not telling you T is imba. I'm just telling you that a lot of the stuff you said is incorrect.
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Wait does this mean  can start whining now? I'll throw in my opinion with those saying that  has too many viable options. Too many ways to harass and all in.
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You can't compare terran drops and protoss drops. Terran dropships are faster, don't require a speed upgrade, heal the units they drop, and drop units that intelligently spread their fire, don't overkill, and out-dps gateway units.
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Even though the Korea graph shows a larger disparity in pvt than in pvz, I'm pretty pleased with pvt just going off of personal experience. PvZ frequently disgusts me though. It feels like I need a combination of absolutely flawless control and dumb luck to win against zergs. One of the reasons it sucks so badly is because you need sooo much gas to be able to stop roach based armies, leaving you practically nothing when he adds in infestors. Mid game muta tech switches have always been ultra powerful; there's this huge 6+ minute timing window where your roach army is literally invincible against the standard stalker colossi composition where just hard switching to muta makes it impossible for protoss to get a 3rd base.
It's incredibly frustrating and there's a lot of times where I lose a pvz and I look back and feel like there was very little I could have done to achieve a different outcome. In pvt, it's usually quite easy to tell where, why, and when you lost a game.
I am a little curious about the carrier/stalker style Mana has been playing in his pvz on his stream. Maybe this is the breakthrough needed to turn around pvz.
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On August 08 2011 12:18 pwadoc wrote:
You can't compare terran drops and protoss drops. Terran dropships are faster, don't require a speed upgrade, heal the units they drop, and drop units that intelligently spread their fire, don't overkill, and out-dps gateway units.
This is an interesting point. I wonder if the stalker lasers moved faster maybe they would overkill less?
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On August 08 2011 12:20 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 12:18 pwadoc wrote:
You can't compare terran drops and protoss drops. Terran dropships are faster, don't require a speed upgrade, heal the units they drop, and drop units that intelligently spread their fire, don't overkill, and out-dps gateway units. This is an interesting point. I wonder if the stalker lasers moved faster maybe they would overkill less?
I think a better solution would be to address the marine rate of fire/dps/targetting AI.
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On August 08 2011 12:09 Stipulation wrote:Wait does this mean can start whining now? I'll throw in my opinion with those saying that has too many viable options. Too many ways to harass and all in.
Protoss allins, by comparison...are extremely weak >.>
3 gate void, 4 gate blink stalker, 3 gate robo immortal pushes are all extremely strong and viable vs FE terran. I don't think terran has that many options vs toss, it feels like a lot of the time just bio expand or 1/1/1 allin are the only builds that seem viable at all.
Goody has had some success vs protoss with mech but I haven't seen anyone else use it effectively.
I think terran is most complete as a race because of the fact that you are constantly producing units throughout the game, while protoss has weak points pre-wg and zerg can be vulnerable while droning. This would also explain the continued success of terran in tournaments and the slight terran favoring in matchups currently.
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On August 07 2011 10:13 dooraven wrote:
That 38% win rate is pretty much due to the fact that Terrans have been using the 111 all month on non large maps and protoss haven't learnt to effectively deal with it yet.
Hate to say it, but I agree. There's been a rise in 1 base terran play, but protosses are continuing with FE happy play. 2 gate robo can melt most of those builds.
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EPT
