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On August 03 2011 12:33 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 12:17 Joey Wheeler wrote:On August 03 2011 12:01 TERRANLOL wrote:On August 03 2011 11:52 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Watching Machine vs Spades right now was so incredibly cringe worthy I can't help but notice how justifiable this "negativity" towards pro gamers is. As a Mid Masters Zerg (by no means am I good in any way), even I felt that I could have handled multiple situations much better than Machine did. I mean seriously, losing 8 mutas to marines because he wasn't paying attention to them? Someone who does this constantly does not deserve to be called a pro gamer, and this is exactly what Machine did as he continued to make these huge blunders throughout the game. It's not just Machine, I've even seen Rainbow just leave 30 marines by themselves on a watch tower so he can donate them to an entire Zerg army for no reason.
In the end, this negativity has good points and the only good way to stop is by actually getting better. How often do you see people talking shit about blunders MC or Nestea did? I'd really like someone to point that out for me. Well. In all fairness, let's take something into consideration: You and he are both on the ladder. Yet, you're not playing with those guys (which is my assumption). And we know that they're on top of the ladder. So as an overall rule his play must be better than yours. Maybe the idea of losing 8 mutas to marines is a blunder and is cost inneffective in itself, but maybe a mistake you make which makes you incapable of making that mistake is paying too much attention to your mutalisks and not enough attention to other things like macro. So in 90% of the situations he's put in he has awesome macro and doesn't lose his mutalisks, but you never lose your mutalisks (which I doubt in itself) and you don't have excellent macro most of the time. My bet is, even making those mistakes, players like EGmachine and Spades would still beat you. BUT regardless I think a better question is why do people get so much enjoyment out of pointing out other people's mistakes? I frequent a website called 9gag.com. It's an imageboard for funny pictures. It used to be a lot better but now most of the "funny pictures" are pictures of people saying stupid things on yahoo answers and someone saying something "smart" in response. Or they're posts of how christians are stupid or how some group of people is stupid... I guess it's just something people enjoy doing, talking about other's mistakes. I think overall though, these people come out to be people who don't accomplish much in general. I think a certain amount of humbleness really helps in making yourself better than you were before. Imagine if someone goes to a restaurant, orders a dish, and is disgusted by it. He comments on how it's terrible, and upon hearing this individual criticizing the steak someone replies with "He can probably still cook better than you". This comment is not appropriate because of a clear reason: The guy who ordered the steak isn't a chef. That situation is exactly the same as comparing me to Machine. Personally, I never played Brood War for a decade, I never was part of a pro gaming team, and I don't play Starcraft several hours a day to compete in tourneys (although I highly doubt Machine does this). What I can do however, is compare Machine's level of skill to someone superior. That's when I notice the major flaws in his play and how his "amazing macro" isn't really that amazing, let alone his control. This would be a fair argument if you hadn't already compared yourself to machine  I was replying to what you were saying and saying why I believe it's still appropriate to call machine a progamer. I guess my overall point though, was that I don't really care how not amazing Machine is. There are better players out there I'm very well aware of that. I don't even care to watch Machine or Spades. But I think it's a complete waste of time to sit there and talk about why Machine isn't as good as them unless it's for your own self improvement. But most of the time it's not.
What does me comparing myself to machine have to do with my argument being incorrect? It's the same thing if not worse: "I could have seasoned this steak better and I'm not even a chef".
You not even caring to watch Machine is exactly the reason why these flaws in his play are a bad thing. When I watch two pro teams battle it out (RGN vs EG), I expect my standards of high level players to be fulfilled, but instead I'm disappointed with major mistakes that no pro player should be ever doing. I'm just going to make it clear: what many of these players did WAS terrible, and saying I'm not a pro gamer and so I wouldn't understand doesn't cut it for me when I can see several players avoid these mistakes at all times.
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Eh, the real problem is that there are so many meta-community threads (like this one) that just overstress issues and just pick stuff up and argue.
People will watch a Proleague game and say that a player played awfully or terribly, but the difference is, nobody will just pick that comment up, jump on it and argue over 10 pages about it (especially if it's true, relative to existing standards ofc).
However if you say anything even slightly negative about anyone in a completely non-offensive context in SC2, his entire fanclub thread group will pick it up and all hell breaks loose.
Yeah there are people who will be straight up offensive about it, just wait until they get banned and let it go. They are still a huge minority, and most of the shitstorms comes from "regular" users just arguing in circles about something.
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On August 03 2011 10:17 Chill wrote:
This aura of negativity is frustrating and it's something new to the Starcraft community. It's made me not want to cast, stream, post, basically... do anything.
Yeah, there was an aura of respect around BW and the pro players. There was still this troll style 'criticism', but I don't think it was near as bad. There was also that feeling of, "yeah, (x) is a good foreigner, but he's not Korean." But it was totally true.
Now, people just want to degrade pros and be 'funny' (or troll)... it's sad.
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im kind of new to the starcraft scene and just wondered whether stream chats were actually representative of the majority of the community or whether it's only idiots who bother to chat whilst watching matches as I hope is the case.
this is the case.
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On August 03 2011 12:40 Joey Wheeler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 12:33 TERRANLOL wrote:On August 03 2011 12:17 Joey Wheeler wrote:On August 03 2011 12:01 TERRANLOL wrote:On August 03 2011 11:52 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Watching Machine vs Spades right now was so incredibly cringe worthy I can't help but notice how justifiable this "negativity" towards pro gamers is. As a Mid Masters Zerg (by no means am I good in any way), even I felt that I could have handled multiple situations much better than Machine did. I mean seriously, losing 8 mutas to marines because he wasn't paying attention to them? Someone who does this constantly does not deserve to be called a pro gamer, and this is exactly what Machine did as he continued to make these huge blunders throughout the game. It's not just Machine, I've even seen Rainbow just leave 30 marines by themselves on a watch tower so he can donate them to an entire Zerg army for no reason.
In the end, this negativity has good points and the only good way to stop is by actually getting better. How often do you see people talking shit about blunders MC or Nestea did? I'd really like someone to point that out for me. Well. In all fairness, let's take something into consideration: You and he are both on the ladder. Yet, you're not playing with those guys (which is my assumption). And we know that they're on top of the ladder. So as an overall rule his play must be better than yours. Maybe the idea of losing 8 mutas to marines is a blunder and is cost inneffective in itself, but maybe a mistake you make which makes you incapable of making that mistake is paying too much attention to your mutalisks and not enough attention to other things like macro. So in 90% of the situations he's put in he has awesome macro and doesn't lose his mutalisks, but you never lose your mutalisks (which I doubt in itself) and you don't have excellent macro most of the time. My bet is, even making those mistakes, players like EGmachine and Spades would still beat you. BUT regardless I think a better question is why do people get so much enjoyment out of pointing out other people's mistakes? I frequent a website called 9gag.com. It's an imageboard for funny pictures. It used to be a lot better but now most of the "funny pictures" are pictures of people saying stupid things on yahoo answers and someone saying something "smart" in response. Or they're posts of how christians are stupid or how some group of people is stupid... I guess it's just something people enjoy doing, talking about other's mistakes. I think overall though, these people come out to be people who don't accomplish much in general. I think a certain amount of humbleness really helps in making yourself better than you were before. Imagine if someone goes to a restaurant, orders a dish, and is disgusted by it. He comments on how it's terrible, and upon hearing this individual criticizing the steak someone replies with "He can probably still cook better than you". This comment is not appropriate because of a clear reason: The guy who ordered the steak isn't a chef. That situation is exactly the same as comparing me to Machine. Personally, I never played Brood War for a decade, I never was part of a pro gaming team, and I don't play Starcraft several hours a day to compete in tourneys (although I highly doubt Machine does this). What I can do however, is compare Machine's level of skill to someone superior. That's when I notice the major flaws in his play and how his "amazing macro" isn't really that amazing, let alone his control. This would be a fair argument if you hadn't already compared yourself to machine I was replying to what you were saying and saying why I believe it's still appropriate to call machine a progamer. I guess my overall point though, was that I don't really care how not amazing Machine is. There are better players out there I'm very well aware of that. I don't even care to watch Machine or Spades. But I think it's a complete waste of time to sit there and talk about why Machine isn't as good as them unless it's for your own self improvement. But most of the time it's not. What does me comparing myself to machine have to do with my argument being incorrect? It's the same thing if not worse: "I could have seasoned this steak better and I'm not even a chef". You not even caring to watch Machine is exactly the reason why these flaws in his play are a bad thing. When I watch two pro teams battle it out (RGN vs EG), I expect my standards of high level players to be fulfilled, but instead I'm disappointed with major mistakes that no pro player should be ever doing. I'm just going to make it clear: what many of these players did WAS terrible, and saying I'm not a pro gamer and so I wouldn't understand doesn't cut it for me when I can see several players avoid these mistakes at all times.
Oh I see I misunderstood your argument.
Regardless, I still think it is a waste of time to sit there and talk about why machine and spades are bad. If you are dissatisfied with the players go watch another tournament. If you want the tournament to have better players, write IGN an email. Bad mouthing the players just makes the community look bad.
The argument concerning IGN not meeting your standards seems kind of silly considering that IPL is actually free.
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At first I tried to fight the system by calling everyone out that made huge assumptions about how good or bad someone is based on the one best of X they were seeing. After getting frustrated at getting trolled back after that I learned that many of the people in JTV chat are just morons trying to stir up shit. I now just automatically hide the chat or if they have an embed on TL I watch it without chat on here.
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On August 03 2011 13:03 Demonace34 wrote:
At first I tried to fight the system by calling everyone out that made huge assumptions about how good or bad someone is based on the one best of X they were seeing. After getting frustrated at getting trolled back after that I learned that many of the people in JTV chat are just morons trying to stir up shit. I now just automatically hide the chat or if they have an embed on TL I watch it without chat on here.
I remember having continuous positive experiences with BW stream chat. It multiplied my enjoyment of the games. I have avoided SC2 chat for months now because it significantly reduces my enjoyment of the games. The main problem I have with the chat is the continuous complaining about everything (stream lag, game lag, this break is too long, the audio sucks, this background music is bad, why aren't they casting this other series instead, this observer keeps missing everything, I have complete vision of the game and this dumbass with fog of war is doing it wrong, this race is IMBA, premium content costs too much, premium content didn't meet my expectations, these games suck compared to those games, these players suck compared to those players, these casters suck compared to those casters, this league sucks compared to that league).
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Lol when I first read this for some reason I thought of destiny.
EDIT: Oh cool I got a zergling!
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what? how is this a problem?
I am a cubs fan. Do I usually talk about how awful the cubs are every season? yes. Do i realize that they are 234324 times more talented than I am at baseball? Duh
Everything is fucking relative, people. When someone says a pro sucks (in SC2, football, soccer, basketball, whatever) they are implicitly implying that they suck COMPARED TO OTHER PROS. Seriously, by the OP's logic, no one would be able to criticize their favorite sports teams.
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Meet humans, this is what they are like, grow a thicker skin.
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On August 03 2011 11:47 askTeivospy wrote:
its funny because I mod one of the streams and I noticed people being completely idiotic/rude similar to examples in this thread in the chat. Then when they are banned / timeouted they complain about it in the stream thread. Except they complain about us being immature while using their new found grade 12 level try-hard-polite-grown-up-writing.
It makes me question how many people who post on teamliquid are immature but hiding it everywhere but on stream chats. I think it has to be said that a lot of people on this site hide how they actually are just so they aren't banned.
I could only imagine how much better the community was during BW days :\
TBH, you are correct. In fact a lot of people hide like this:
On August 03 2011 10:14 aeris wrote:
o gawd are you really complaining about stream chat?
I hope you realize the generic person in stream chat is a malicious heartless wanna be troll. Seriously stream chats are often the scum of the earth.
Don't take anything you read in stream chats to be the 'voice of the community' or anything. In reality it's like 2 fat obnoxious people spamming about the streamers skill etc.
like if you're a closet gay but have been brought up to fear and hate that lifestyle, so anonymously you're all over it but publicly you condemn it very harshly. Not saying the above poster is this way, however it does happen all the time.
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On August 03 2011 12:45 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 10:17 Chill wrote:
This aura of negativity is frustrating and it's something new to the Starcraft community. It's made me not want to cast, stream, post, basically... do anything. Yeah, there was an aura of respect around BW and the pro players. There was still this troll style 'criticism', but I don't think it was near as bad. There was also that feeling of, "yeah, (x) is a good foreigner, but he's not Korean." But it was totally true. Now, people just want to degrade pros and be 'funny' (or troll)... it's sad.
That's true actually. I think it's because the community, at least foreign, was a lot tighter. The fans had mostly been playing for a long time, and knew their place in comparison to top players because it had been beaten into them through the years.
Maybe that's part of it at least.
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On August 03 2011 12:17 Joey Wheeler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 12:01 TERRANLOL wrote:On August 03 2011 11:52 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Watching Machine vs Spades right now was so incredibly cringe worthy I can't help but notice how justifiable this "negativity" towards pro gamers is. As a Mid Masters Zerg (by no means am I good in any way), even I felt that I could have handled multiple situations much better than Machine did. I mean seriously, losing 8 mutas to marines because he wasn't paying attention to them? Someone who does this constantly does not deserve to be called a pro gamer, and this is exactly what Machine did as he continued to make these huge blunders throughout the game. It's not just Machine, I've even seen Rainbow just leave 30 marines by themselves on a watch tower so he can donate them to an entire Zerg army for no reason.
In the end, this negativity has good points and the only good way to stop is by actually getting better. How often do you see people talking shit about blunders MC or Nestea did? I'd really like someone to point that out for me. Well. In all fairness, let's take something into consideration: You and he are both on the ladder. Yet, you're not playing with those guys (which is my assumption). And we know that they're on top of the ladder. So as an overall rule his play must be better than yours. Maybe the idea of losing 8 mutas to marines is a blunder and is cost inneffective in itself, but maybe a mistake you make which makes you incapable of making that mistake is paying too much attention to your mutalisks and not enough attention to other things like macro. So in 90% of the situations he's put in he has awesome macro and doesn't lose his mutalisks, but you never lose your mutalisks (which I doubt in itself) and you don't have excellent macro most of the time. My bet is, even making those mistakes, players like EGmachine and Spades would still beat you. BUT regardless I think a better question is why do people get so much enjoyment out of pointing out other people's mistakes? I frequent a website called 9gag.com. It's an imageboard for funny pictures. It used to be a lot better but now most of the "funny pictures" are pictures of people saying stupid things on yahoo answers and someone saying something "smart" in response. Or they're posts of how christians are stupid or how some group of people is stupid... I guess it's just something people enjoy doing, talking about other's mistakes. I think overall though, these people come out to be people who don't accomplish much in general. I think a certain amount of humbleness really helps in making yourself better than you were before. Imagine if someone goes to a restaurant, orders a dish, and is disgusted by it. He comments on how it's terrible, and upon hearing this individual criticizing the steak someone replies with "He can probably still cook better than you". This comment is not appropriate because of a clear reason: The guy who ordered the steak isn't a chef.That situation is exactly the same as comparing me to Machine. Personally, I never played Brood War for a decade, I never was part of a pro gaming team, and I don't play Starcraft several hours a day to compete in tourneys (although I highly doubt Machine does this). What I can do however, is compare Machine's level of skill to someone superior. That's when I notice the major flaws in his play and how his "amazing macro" isn't really that amazing, let alone his control.
facile argument. he might very well be another chef, and could be a master at making one, but noone in the restaurant knows him because he smurfs his chef account.
Additionally, in this game, everyone is practicing and TRYING to be the perfect chef. A more appropriate analogy would actually be a cooking school, where people get to try the dishes of others and rate them.
In essence, flawed argument.
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I almost completely avoid tournament chats and often LR threads for this very reason. I remember many occasions where I've been watching the GSL and sees a game that I find interesting and go to read the LR thread to discuss it, it's been full with post of how bad something was, how bad the players were or something completely unrelated to the game at hand like caster bashing and so on. It completely ruins the fun and you often end up more annoyed than anything.
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![[image loading]](http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215499488_8pSZr-L-2.jpg)
How is a normally-powerless-in-his-everyday-crappy-life teenager going to act in a situation where there's no longer any limits?
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On August 03 2011 12:33 Teim wrote:
I don't even open the chat windows anymore. No point in tainting my viewing experience.
Pretty much. I think it's cool to interact with players like iNcontroL and Sheth, but so many chat channels are unbearable.
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Kudos for TL to have such a great moderated forum. Without the strict moderation we would see more idiots posting shit stuff here as well.
I have a stream running and can tell: the smaller the amount of viewers, the less shit talk. Why is that so? It's natural. People dont have the feeling they can "hide" amongst others. Take one human being, he will most of the time act as a human being. Take a whole lot of people and they will act as a herd of cows believing that they can get away with their shit talk.
In addition: In real life those idiots writing shit stuff don't get any attention at all. This is just another way of expressing their frustration. Just ignore or like TL does immediately warn/temp ban/ban the people and show them that they have crossed a line which they shouldnt have.
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On August 03 2011 12:31 Gamegene wrote:
Ugh. I'm starting to hate this liberal use of the word troll.
Is it just me because acting like a fucktard isn't trolling, there are some geniune people out there who are actually just immature and stupid. If it was just 5-10 trolls at a time we wouldn't be caring at all.
yep, even logical disagreement has come to be called "trolling" now and then. its the new "unpatriotic" label used to destroy the credibility of someone's argument. Its a witch hunt all over again.
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I don't see any problem in calling a player bad and saying that a caster is bad.
Also, if you can back statements like "the caster has no clue" up with proper knowledge then it is also fine to say that.
Saying "damn that caster is bad I hope he dies of cancer" is totally different, though. But insulting was always bad.
So what is the point of the thread again?
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it's disgusting and retarded! I can't stand the forums and live chats these days, almost every post is hate towards someone that actually DOES something for the community and many times for free!
i mean the most hated communitys members are always players, casters and event organizers! So they hate on people that do shit, bring content for us to see and that is almost always for free!
If those guys actually did something besides being on their mothers basement writing shit on forums, I wouldn't so pissed off!
The hate is killing me(not esports) because it's a lot less fun to see anything and have a discussion about it besides:
"X sucks"
"Y sucks and is a dick"
"foreigns suck, koreans are much better"
"i hate that because of this, so i hope they lose"
"A voice is annoying"
"B is ugly and got no game knowledge, he should die"
bla bla
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EPT
