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I really don't see how the fact that EG didn't actually sign him until after the whole drama is actually relevant.
I mean, the way I understand it is that TSL was pretty much presented with a done deal, or they were at least under the impression that they were. At the point where Puma spoke to his coach about his intentions, his decision was already clear, and while no contract was signed, it wasn't more then a formality. Puma had made up his mind (and was under no contractual obligation to stay with TSL), EG had made the offer, and TSL was left with nothing. I understand how the TSL coach took it as 'stealing' a player, especially in the korean environment, and made a statement afterwards.
It might all be miscommunication, I for one have no idea if anyone on EG speaks korean or on what level Puma's english is, but it's still the approaching party that has the responsibility to initiate the process on a fair basis. Which, for whatever reason, did not happen.
(Not to even mention the blunt stupidity of attacking someone for translating an article from a relevant korean community website.)
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On July 26 2011 09:34 Dubo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
PuMa spoke with Mr. Lee as the *first* step in this process
To be fair, it sounds like the first step in the process was you asking PuMa to join EG at the NASL finals, before consulting with Coach Lee.
Please stop with these comments. It's virtually acknowledged that all esports teams do some form of scouting, marketing and networking in order to gauge interest without going through management.
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United States5162 Posts
On July 26 2011 09:35 dacthehork wrote:
It still is very underhanded way of things. TSL housed/trained/fed Puma for 10 months in an environment EG could not have provided. To have 10 months of work taken away is pretty ridiculous. That 10 months is still a lot of resources TSL put in and when it finally looked like they would get anything out of it... he is sniped out. It's partly TSL's fault for relying on trust but it still makes me dislike EG and Puma.
Did you read the part where he said he would provide retroactive settlement negotiation?
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So here's another thought. EG is disappointed that everyone heard only TSL's side of the argument before EG was able to say anything about it, but what about PuMa? He's away from his team in the USA, focused on winning a tournament, and he has EG there convincing him to join their team while his coach and teammates are not around to offer their input. That is FAR more of a dick move.
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On July 26 2011 09:31 Executor1 wrote:
When writing something down, i dont see the point in stating something 6 times, if someone doesnt understand they can just reread it. It sounds like you wrote this like you would write a public speach.
It reads like a politician being interviewed.
I don't blame EG for talking to PUMA at NASL; there's not exactly many other opportunities to meet Korean players.
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On July 26 2011 09:35 Z3kk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:33 TOCHMY wrote:On July 26 2011 09:31 Krehlmar wrote:
What did they do to Milkis? Please explain; I've missed it entirely. read this: + Show Spoiler +On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:16 aderum wrote:On July 26 2011 09:15 zeru wrote:
Still no apology to milkis? Extremely disappointed. Does he have to apologies for having a different opinion then him and debating that with him? What? he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Sure, but I that does not describe a specific action in its context and circumstances. How was Milkis attacked for translating that article, anyway? :O Where was this, again?
watch the WoC episode and u will understand
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On July 26 2011 09:11 Shiori wrote:
I consider your entire stance on that matter (the stuff about this being a 'first step) to be utterly retroactive and damage control.
This is my glaring thought when reading this.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 26 2011 09:36 Fugue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:31 Krehlmar wrote:
What did they do to Milkis? Please explain; I've missed it entirely. The last 15-20 minutes of Weapon of Choice. The issue over the acquisition of Puma was pretty much put to bed, but AG decided to bring up that Milkis translated the PlayXP article (Coach Lee's negative interview that surprised both EG and Puma), and proceeded to bring into question whether Milkis should have translated that interview and posted it without first contacting EG for comment. Basically AG was pissed off that the bad press spread out from Korea to the rest of the e-sports scene, and EG was being dragged through the mud thanks to Coach Lee's reaction. It was a supremely silly thing for a PR person to actually do and I dont know why he thought that would go down well - it was only ever going to be taken as a personal attack on Milkis and it's indefensible to say that a translator should have held back on posting the story. On July 26 2011 09:36 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:31 Krehlmar wrote:
What did they do to Milkis? Please explain; I've missed it entirely. short form Alex: I don't mean to sound accusatory and I apologize beforehand but you need to be held to journalistic standards. You have no right to defame my organization and you aren't allowed to express your own opinions on alternate medium when you have an article on the same subject. About 15 minutes of the above.
Ah, okay. I understand now. Thanks!
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On July 26 2011 09:31 Krehlmar wrote:
What did they do to Milkis? Please explain; I've missed it entirely.
EG accused him of causing drama for not living up to journalistic standards, because milkis didn't edit and add information to an article he translated from playxp. It was pretty absurd.
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Glad to hear the side of the story 
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Korean fans and teams won't like your E-SPORTS world that you mentioned in WoC. They want to keep their center position in e-sports just like BW day.
This isn't about right or wrong. You seem to be great guy with great vision and business ability. But you were too fast. Koreans are not ready to accept your vision. It was too radical in their sense.
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On July 26 2011 09:34 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:28 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:25 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:21 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:20 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:16 aderum wrote:On July 26 2011 09:15 zeru wrote:
Still no apology to milkis? Extremely disappointed. Does he have to apologies for having a different opinion then him and debating that with him? What? he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Well after the information that has come to light, Milikis effectively promulgated and defended outright incorrect information. Maybe not with his translation, but with his decision to appear on Lo3 his side was clear. What evidence has been presented (aside from AG's word) that Milikis's information is incorrect? I still fail to see how that's dishonest, given that no explanation was made until today (and even today's has gaping holes hidden under the pretty rhetoric). The insistence that EG's actions during the entire affair amounted to an effective total disregard for the Korean way of doing things, when in fact the reality of the situation was far more complicated, and may have simply amounted to a misunderstanding on an individual bases. In other words, the possibility of the entire situation being a misunderstanding became grossly unlikely to enter public after incorrect details like EG saying that Puma approached them first being repeated over and over. I'm not sure what you read, but not a single one of AG's supposed "misunderstandings" are at all acceptable for a serious organization. Full stop. Sure they are, like djWheat said, "fuck the teams, I'm all about the players." The idea that anyone is totally cut off from communication, as in all communications to Puma must go through a team (even with no contract, which would contain restrictions in regards to player communication), totally offends every sense of individual liberty I and a great many other people have. With such stringent policies in action, many players would be cut off from incredible opportunity, and that is simply unacceptable given the level of success e-sports has achieved.
To be frank, djWheat's quote is utterly retarded. Setting aside your attempt to turn this into some high-minded discussion of libertarianism, teams exist for a reason. They are not completely separate entities. They are comprised of management and players. The players allow themselves to be managed because the management brokers a deal with them; one which gives the players a good environment plus someone to handle the business side of things.
Opportunity has always played second fiddle to ethics, and it always will. If a player is associated with a team, it is common courtesy to speak through professional channels with that team, even if you've already mentioned it to the player. I do not for a second buy AG's pandering to the fact that Mr. Lee went to the press. Does doing such a thing somehow destroy EG's internet access? How about their telephone? If anything, it should have spurred them into action even quicker.
Second, going around trying to woo players might please someone who thinks competitiveness trumps mutual respect, but I'm not one of those people. Nobody here is advocating that players be slaves to their team, but we are insisting that the bonds of respect not be utterly disregarded. Things are not transitory or chains, you know.
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Great of EG to clear this up!
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Statement pretty much confirms what I already came to believe last week, but it's very good that it's made much more clear for some who may not have followed this as closely.
The comments about Milkis are of a whole other issue, and the argument for translators being journalist is debatable and Milkis simply seemed to have ended up in the unfavorable position of having to defend his side of the debate, which he was wholly and understandably unprepared for.
Are there actually any English to Korean translators here who could get this statement out to Koreans? Would only seem fair to the Korean community if they got to have some people just as cool as the translators here.
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On July 26 2011 09:36 Derez wrote:
I really don't see how the fact that EG didn't actually sign him until after the whole drama is actually relevant.
I mean, the way I understand it is that TSL was pretty much presented with a done deal, or they were at least under the impression that they were. At the point where Puma spoke to his coach about his intentions, his decision was already clear, and while no contract was signed, it wasn't more then a formality. Puma had made up his mind (and was under no contractual obligation to stay with TSL), EG had made the offer, and TSL was left with nothing. I understand how the TSL coach took it as 'stealing' a player, especially in the korean environment, and made a statement afterwards.
It might all be miscommunication, I for one have no idea if anyone on EG speaks korean or on what level Puma's english is, but it's still the approaching party that has the responsibility to initiate the process on a fair basis. Which, for whatever reason, did not happen.
(Not to even mention the blunt stupidity of attacking someone for translating an article from a relevant korean community website.)
Because the whole shitstorm was about how EG signed a player from under TSL's nose, and the first play xp article presented that information as fact, when in reality puma wasn't even signed yet.
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On July 26 2011 09:34 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:28 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:25 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:21 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:20 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:16 aderum wrote:On July 26 2011 09:15 zeru wrote:
Still no apology to milkis? Extremely disappointed. Does he have to apologies for having a different opinion then him and debating that with him? What? he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Well after the information that has come to light, Milikis effectively promulgated and defended outright incorrect information. Maybe not with his translation, but with his decision to appear on Lo3 his side was clear. What evidence has been presented (aside from AG's word) that Milikis's information is incorrect? I still fail to see how that's dishonest, given that no explanation was made until today (and even today's has gaping holes hidden under the pretty rhetoric). The insistence that EG's actions during the entire affair amounted to an effective total disregard for the Korean way of doing things, when in fact the reality of the situation was far more complicated, and may have simply amounted to a misunderstanding on an individual bases. In other words, the possibility of the entire situation being a misunderstanding became grossly unlikely to enter public after incorrect details like EG saying that Puma approached them first being repeated over and over. I'm not sure what you read, but not a single one of AG's supposed "misunderstandings" are at all acceptable for a serious organization. Full stop. Sure they are, like djWheat said, " fuck the teams, I'm all about the players." The idea that anyone is totally cut off from communication, as in all communications to Puma must go through a team (even with no contract, which would contain restrictions in regards to player communication), totally offends every sense of individual liberty I and a great many other people have. With such stringent policies in action, many players would be cut off from incredible opportunity, and that is simply unacceptable given the level of success e-sports has achieved.
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I can see why something like that would be against the Korean way of doing things. No, not even Korean way of doing things, just to most sports teams in general. Fact of the matter is, you gotta respect your team at least for everything they've done and everything you've went through together.
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On July 26 2011 09:32 dwillow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:30 PikaXchU wrote:On July 26 2011 09:28 Fionn wrote:On July 26 2011 09:26 PikaXchU wrote:
When in doubt always blast the messenger, and then pretend nothing happens...
I believe an apology for Milkis is in order here.. Milkis wasn't even the messenger. PlayXP was the messenger. Milkis was just translating what the messenger said. If anything, EG should be pissed at PlayXP for putting up the article before Puma was officially signed. Milkis did nothing wrong. If he didn't translate the article, someone else would have. Without Milkis, we wouldn't even have known what had happened on PlayXP, so he was indirectly the messenger when he translated. This is also more or less the reason why he was bashed, because he brought this up to TL. Isn´t the Milkis here on TL for that, to bring us the news from korea? Isn´t that a job and meaning of journalist and translator?
it's not a job. he's not paid. he just translates because he's a fan of starcraft. it would only be inappropriate if he intentionally mistranslated content from korea but that didn't happen so for AG to hold him partially responsible for breaking out this news is absurd. his anger should be directed at the korean press, not milkis.
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On July 26 2011 09:21 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:20 farvacola wrote:On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 09:16 aderum wrote:On July 26 2011 09:15 zeru wrote:
Still no apology to milkis? Extremely disappointed. Does he have to apologies for having a different opinion then him and debating that with him? What? he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Well after the information that has come to light, Milikis effectively promulgated and defended outright incorrect information. Maybe not with his translation, but with his decision to appear on Lo3 his side was clear. ....What?
Milkis, I think it will be best for your mental health to not read any more comments on this EG Puma thing cept the main article. You'll probably end up getting angry, confused at some of the comments
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It would have been nice to get a response like this much sooner... I don't understand why it had to take this long. That being said, even if you guys did never intend to talk to TSL directly, I think the thread still would have been considered blown out of proportion, because although that may have been disrespectful to do if you guys had chosen to not speak to TSL, it really wasn't as big of a deal as people made it.
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The way it first came out was pretty bad, nice to hear your side...
Damage is still done and its another piece of bad press that gives me the feeling that EG is quickly becoming a bad name brand which is a shame because I'm fond of a number of their players and was once an avid follower. But It's the behind the scenes stuff that is starting to give an yucky feeling about it all and spreads to the players perception. I no longer watch incontrol because of that poo poo drama and I'd always be a first poster in the comment section to sotg when it was there because it was so good. But being good doesn't mean its right, so can't tune into any more to the pod casts. So I think perhaps my tastes are shifting to support the independent guys like Catz and Destiny. Hope the EG brand improves and you guys don't end up dropping it.
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EPT
